Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
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Bottom line,
Men LOVE women. Vice-versa?...Not so much.
I think Zulf and Huruf have proven that. And I don't speak just from my interactions with them. I have seen this over and over again, with just about all the women I know and have met. That misogynist stuff is mostly projection. Men literally live and die for women the world over. Women talk about men like dogs, yet only women get utterly offended when they are talked about. With that said, people...ALL PEOPLE can easily start to abuse whatever power they get if they don't keep God and humility in their hearts. I think that is a human trait common to all genders, races and ethnicities.
Salam
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I'm not sure what society you live in... but it seems men over there are deeply addicted to women, and treat them like meat. This means those men are slaves to the flesh, their devilish influence. This is the fault of the men, notthe women. The women over there may have other weaknesses, which are not the fault of the men. As soon as we start blaming our own faults on someone or something else, we've lost touch with reality and lost hope of improving. We can only improve if we acknowledge and own our weaknesses.
Especially men in religion have taken this self glorifying and deeply ignorant approach to the situation at hand. Once they feel attracted to women, they twist the "lower your gaze" instruction and deformes it into a command for women to bury themselves in cloth. Hiding women only worsen the carnal itch in men. The itch gets worse and too often gets negative consequences once they come across women who are not so buried in cloth. The virtue of decency is not built up by hiding women in cloth and behind walls. A sickness is not treated by plastering over the symptom. Dust doesn't vanish when it is brushed under the carpet. Don't blame your weakness on someone else.
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The hiding in garment should be the decision of the woman alone. It is also good that the man does this as well as not to be a provocation in the other direction with macho moves, flexing of swelling muscles et cetera. And when you feel erotic by viewing and feeling your body then it might be easier for you if you had hidden it altogether instead. That pleasure in the own body is a reason you cover it up instead. The wish to show your beautiful hair or whatever is an instinctive impulse and it may be wise to suppress it depending on your spiritual aim. Preoccupying your mind with those primitive thoughts is a vanity while you could have done something more logical and advanced.
When you make a showoff of yourself then you will also make people around you interact with you in ways stimulating the beast in yourself, so it is not (only) for others you would cover up.
On the other hand, if someone sees you naked and do not react in any way there is no emergency. There is no doctrinal law regarding it but it is mainly a courtesy both to yourself and others.
Another way of combating the beast in you is by dressing not extremely but you dress up in very simple and perhaps ugly clothes so that people would absolutely not be attracted. It can be easy for men as women generally wish a man with trendy clothing and then ugly, boring colors can be a good prevention. But behind the facade is a warm heart that only gets very intelligent interaction. And the clothing does not have to be ugly either, just very monotone and practical.
Also very much of the "impure" interaction comes from the instinctive application of charm towards the gender of attraction. If that can be controlled, much else can be made unnecessary.
However, a man or woman of Rabb may seem very charismatic due to the faith and thus confidence which may lead to involuntary attraction and thus some distance can be required, especially to whom does not know the to them unattractive spiritual mind (example is those who feel what I say is extremist). There is a lot to keep in mind. You like to help people, not lead them further into ignorance.
And remember empathy and the spreading of empathy is most important. Empathy is difficult when the instinct is a stumbling block. Empathy works easily in theory but may be surprisingly difficult in practice. It is always easier when you do not expect anything in return from people and then when you least expect it your deeds precede you and you can have unexpected assistance. Never expect any help but help freely from right to left and you will notice that your friendly manner will be rewarding. Avoid feeling you are being used but contemplate instead what else really useful besides vain entertainment would you have received otherwise.
A good Spirit will definitely spread even in a slightly misaligned soul. Do not judge people too quickly. You can often wake them up out of their slumber with persistence. It is everyone's purpose to spread light around them. When people think positively about you then it is easier to tell them why the instinct is a problem to them as you are a living manifestation of that, i.e. you have already displayed several cases of dodging instincts that go against the good behavior. It is easier when you live as you teach.
And yes, obviously a woman can stand in front of a prayer and lead it as she is a soul too and the soul in its nature has no sex, it just happens that her flesh had to be female in that occasion. If the fellow prayers cannot focus on prayer rather than her voice or flesh then perhaps they should wonder whether they should have stayed at home instead and contemplated on how to master themselves. The will to change is their own and Rabb does not do the dirty work, or do you blame Rabb when your minds drift off? Or you perhaps blame the shape goat Satan? Come on, blame yourselves and find a working remedy!?
Be safe
Amenuel -
Bottom line,
Men LOVE women. Vice-versa?...Not so much.
I think Zulf and Huruf have proven that. And I don't speak just from my interactions with them. I have seen this over and over again, with just about all the women I know and have met. That misogynist stuff is mostly projection. Men literally live and die for women the world over. Women talk about men like dogs, yet only women get utterly offended when they are talked about. With that said, people...ALL PEOPLE can easily start to abuse whatever power they get if they don't keep God and humility in their hearts. I think that is a human trait common to all genders, races and ethnicities.
Salam
How very schizofrenic.
Some men live and die for womenn willingly because they are noble, not because they are idiots or misled. Those are the ones who are respected and earn that respect.
Then there are those clowns and fakes, who go aroundn being very much males and are no good, either because they are predators or because the follow the predators play out of sheer stupidity. And some times they are so little manly that they cry and sob because they do not get the toy they want so much.
Men are not a block, they are people. So making them a bunch and telling women how they hate the men is the play of a twisted or evil person, not the act of honourable people. The ct of somebody who thinks women are as idiots as they would like them to be, and that other men do not exist.
Salaam
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They follow the beast, the bodily instinct.
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Congregational prayer ?!
Never heard of it.
EXACTLY!!!
Salam
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Huruf,
Some men live and die for womenn willingly because they are noble, not because they are idiots or misled. Those are the ones who are respected and earn that respect.
Then there are those clowns and fakes, who go aroundn being very much males and are no good, either because they are predators or because the follow the predators play out of sheer stupidity. And some times they are so little manly that they cry and sob because they do not get the toy they want so much.
Men are not a block, they are people. So making them a bunch and telling women how they hate the men is the play of a twisted or evil person, not the act of honourable people. The ct of somebody who thinks women are as idiots as they would like them to be, and that other men do not exist.
Very schizophrenic indeed.
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Huruf,
I'm not sure what society you live in... but it seems men over there are deeply addicted to women, and treat them like meat. This means those men are slaves to the flesh, their devilish influence. This is the fault of the men, notthe women. The women over there may have other weaknesses, which are not the fault of the men. As soon as we start blaming our own faults on someone or something else, we've lost touch with reality and lost hope of improving. We can only improve if we acknowledge and own our weaknesses.
Especially men in religion have taken this self glorifying and deeply ignorant approach to the situation at hand. Once they feel attracted to women, they twist the "lower your gaze" instruction and deformes it into a command for women to bury themselves in cloth. Hiding women only worsen the carnal itch in men. The itch gets worse and too often gets negative consequences once they come across women who are not so buried in cloth. The virtue of decency is not built up by hiding women in cloth and behind walls. A sickness is not treated by plastering over the symptom. Dust doesn't vanish when it is brushed under the carpet. Don't blame your weakness on someone else.
I have very plainly pointed out the weakness. And I never once mentioned carnal desire. Nor did I mentioned ladies' dress. It is okay for a man to desire a woman and to want to make her his wife, if she is permissible. That is not a sin or a sickness. God gave us clothes and gave women the command to cover up their shapes for a reason. You can hate that fact all you want. The world is not perfect. Paradise is. And we are not free in this world either, we will only be free in paradise. If you don't believe in Paradise, then seek your reward here, give up the reward in paradise and stop trying to claim to be religious.
We live in the real world. It actually DOES make the situation better when a woman covers properly. It creates comfort for her husband, her fathers and her brothers who want to see that she is respected. It allows men to see them as respectable women, only to be approached for respectable reasons. That is a fact. Just as there are some men who may still be inappropriate even if a woman is covered, there are also women who will pretend to cover while purposefully drawing sexual attention to themselves. However, it is certainly NOT true that the more a woman covers the more he will sexually desire her. That sickness of seeking what you can't have or seeking the forbidden, is a base nature of all rebellious and tyrannous human beings. However, it is more prevalent in both rebellious youth and (secretly and openly) rebellious women from what I have seen.
Salaam
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You have quoted the wrong person. HURUF did not write what you have quoted and put an answer underneath. Seems like a Freudian slip.
As to what you write, the fact that tyrany against women is "justified" with ple
nty of seemingly very pious talk, does not in fact justify such tyrany nor helps anybody and it is an encouragement to men lacking true values to continue lacking them and blaming those they consider more defenceless ad that they caqn get away with anything a it is the case where tht kind of mentality rules.In societies where that mentality rules there is no morality and hypocrisy reigns supreme, as could be expected, and where religion is used to corrupt people instead of to give them the courage of true convictions and where women are assaulted without regard of what they wear or do ot wear.
Some of you should do what it was done at a time in southern United states, that a white man disguised himself as black and livd through what blackmen lived everyday. You should live in those societies as a woman for a while and then come and tells us the great fun it was.
Salaam
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Huruf,
Okay, I meant Zulf not you. I don't see how that is Freudian slip.
In those days, as is the case today, most White Americans don't live with Black Americans. So such a skit makes sense. However, men LIVE with women.
Bender,
Of course. My observations are those of the general weaknesses and strengths of women and men.
Salam.
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But what I found odd in your message was "Eve is more prone to corruption than Adam directly through Satan. And Adam is more prone to corruption through Eve". What does that even mean? Is Eve to be blamed for corrupt men? Is the majority of the sins of men due to women??
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But what I found odd in your message was "Eve is more prone to corruption than Adam directly through Satan. And Adam is more prone to corruption through Eve". What does that even mean? Is Eve to be blamed for corrupt men? Is the majority of the sins of men due to women??
This chap seems to have "issues" with women. Some of his general assumptions about women are so basic, it's ridiculous.
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I see a lot of people here who have issues with unpopular concepts. Our ideals and real life are two different things. I realized that along time ago. I think many of you here need to realize this as well. In the end reality is always much stranger and unpopular than you think. You can chalk it up to "issues", but none of you have been able to talk intelligently about this without being extremely offended or feeling the need to defend yourselves or come to the defense of the "weaker" sex, while claiming at the same time that she is equal.
Zulf, I am really not going to waste my words anymore. What i said is as clear as day
Huruf,
Some men live and die for womenn willingly because they are noble,
Nobility DOES NOT....IN ANY WAY...consist of living and dying for women. It consists of living and dying for God. Most men live and die for women every day. The real fact is that you don't care about how they do this unless it involves something immediately dramatic and that brings fame to that man, and indirectly, to you. It is also baffling how you assume that most women are good. The Quran says that most people are misguided and tyrannous. It even curses mankind. Yet somehow you think that women are precious and good by nature and that men should be glad to give their lives for any women....nonsense. Aren't women apart of mankind?
Here are some more popular myth busted
- Most people are NOT good ( I already established this one).
- Children are born ignorant fools and must be taught to be wise, noble and capable through discipline
- Because most people are not good. Most women are not good either. Just like most men are not good.
- Women are usually more emotionally immature than men (this becomes clear by one's twenties), despite the fact that women are able to be extremely driven, intelligent and capable.
- Freedom is a myth. If you follow a religion, or are bound by laws then you are not free.
- Freedom is actually evil. Only proper discipline leads to growth.
- This world was not meant to be perfect, nor your health, nor anything. Yet you must strive to grow and better if you don't want to be a complete loser in life. So you are basically running on a treadmill that will never stop.
- There ARE Kuffar, who are treasonous to God and they are going to HELL forever. It more about being treacherous with God than with humanity. Islam is not humanism. Good will among men is just a consequence of subjecting ourselves to Allah. Some of those people who are hell-bound will be our parents, our siblings and the children we love. And we must always be careful about it being us.
- Atheists are going to HELL, no matter how nice they are or how good of a person you think they are. You can't send them on their way, nor should your remind them of this only to insult them, but they are still going there. Same thing goes for all people who literally or in their actions make equals with God.
- Atheists who get offended at being told they are going to Hell are simpletons.
- As much as women talk about love they actually do not love even a fraction of the amount that men love. Pretty ironic seeing how men are usually not as open with it. That is why men kill themselves over women. Women just get another boyfriend or remarry...quickly. Women do NOT kill themselves over men. (This is a generalized, yet true statement).
- Women only value men for what men can do for them. Men value even women who can't do anything for them. Women don't marry paupers, but men do all the time and they do it gladly.
- The main motivating factor in a man's life are the women in his life. Women, however, could care less about what men think, they compete with each other to attract the man who can do the most for them. Men are tools for women. That's it.
- Women have more egos than men, just not as much muscle and base to make it easily known.
This world is a mess. But the vileness of men and women does not HAVE to be the case. Women don't have to act like cavewomen and men don't have to act like cavemen. Men and women don't have to be driven by their base egos or be obsessed with gender if we learn our roles and play them as Allah says. But when your pride is based on your gender and not you servitude to Allah, well...that's what you get, cavemen, cavewomen and gender wars. And you get people who defend this cave life tooth and nail.
We all need to learn our place. Period.
Salaam
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Exactly!
that's deluding yourselves to the biology of humans
either way this just sounds like feminist chauvinism, when the second post in the thread already responded rightfully and beautifully
it looks more like empty rebelling than anything like we typically see in the usa like how feminists want to use "she" when talking about god as an example
that's an issue of the english language, but still it's easy to see when there's feminist chauvinism in play
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You have quoted the wrong person. HURUF did not write what you have quoted and put an answer underneath. Seems like a Freudian slip.
...
himself as black and livd through what blackmen lived everyday. You should live in those societies as a woman for a while and then come and tells us the great fun it was.
Salaam
Huruf,
I have very plainly pointed out the weakness. And I never once mentioned carnal desire. Nor did I mentioned ladies' dress.
...
more prevalent in both rebellious youth and (secretly and openly) rebellious women from what I have seen.
Salaam
handsome men who dress with tight clothes get leered at by women all the time
it's not oppression of women when the quran tells people to dress modestly
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Salaam,
I see a lot of people here who have issues with unpopular concepts. Our ideals and real life are two different things. I realized that along time ago. I think many of you here need to realize this as well. In the end reality is always much stranger and unpopular than you think. You can chalk it up to "issues", but none of you have been able to talk intelligently about this without being extremely offended or feeling the need to defend yourselves or come to the defense of the "weaker" sex, while claiming at the same time that she is equal.
Zulf, I am really not going to waste my words anymore. What i said is as clear as day
Huruf,
Nobility DOES NOT....IN ANY WAY...consist of living and dying for women. It consists of living and dying for God. Most men live and die for women every day. The real fact is that you don't care about how they do this unless it involves something immediately dramatic and that brings fame to that man, and indirectly, to you. It is also baffling how you assume that most women are good. The Quran says that most people are misguided and tyrannous. It even curses mankind. Yet somehow you think that women are precious and good by nature and that men should be glad to give their lives for any women....nonsense. Aren't women apart of mankind?Here are some more popular myth busted
- Most people are NOT good ( I already established this one).
- Children are born ignorant fools and must be taught to be wise, noble and capable through discipline
- Because most people are not good. Most women are not good either. Just like most men are not good.
- Women are usually more emotionally immature than men (this becomes clear by one's twenties), despite the fact that women are able to be extremely driven, intelligent and capable.
- Freedom is a myth. If you follow a religion, or are bound by laws then you are not free.
- Freedom is actually evil. Only proper discipline leads to growth.
- This world was not meant to be perfect, nor your health, nor anything. Yet you must strive to grow and better if you don't want to be a complete loser in life. So you are basically running on a treadmill that will never stop.
- There ARE Kuffar, who are treasonous to God and they are going to HELL forever. It more about being treacherous with God than with humanity. Islam is not humanism. Good will among men is just a consequence of subjecting ourselves to Allah. Some of those people who are hell-bound will be our parents, our siblings and the children we love. And we must always be careful about it being us.
- Atheists are going to HELL, no matter how nice they are or how good of a person you think they are. You can't send them on their way, nor should your remind them of this only to insult them, but they are still going there. Same thing goes for all people who literally or in their actions make equals with God.
- Atheists who get offended at being told they are going to Hell are simpletons.
- As much as women talk about love they actually do not love even a fraction of the amount that men love. Pretty ironic seeing how men are usually not as open with it. That is why men kill themselves over women. Women just get another boyfriend or remarry...quickly. Women do NOT kill themselves over men. (This is a generalized, yet true statement).
- Women only value men for what men can do for them. Men value even women who can't do anything for them. Women don't marry paupers, but men do all the time and they do it gladly.
- The main motivating factor in a man's life are the women in his life. Women, however, could care less about what men think, they compete with each other to attract the man who can do the most for them. Men are tools for women. That's it.
- Women have more egos than men, just not as much muscle and base to make it easily known.
This world is a mess. But the vileness of men and women does not HAVE to be the case. Women don't have to act like cavewomen and men don't have to act like cavemen. Men and women don't have to be driven by their base egos or be obsessed with gender if we learn our roles and play them as Allah says. But when your pride is based on your gender and not you servitude to Allah, well...that's what you get, cavemen, cavewomen and gender wars. And you get people who defend this cave life tooth and nail.
We all need to learn our place. Period.
Salaam
I apologise in advance as I apprec that this may sound patronising or condescending, but I pity you. I pity the view you have of people. I hope you come to the conclusion that the reality is not as abject as how you currently perceive it.
Salaam.
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Bender,
Of course. My observations are those of the general weaknesses and strengths of women and men.
Salam.
Hi,
Thank you for your honesty.
Allah is just, He will not punish a woman because you can not take your eyes of her.
Your duty is to behave like a man in every situation.
If there is a naked women and you rape her then you will get a punishment equivalent to your crime.
Blaming the naked woman will not save you a single bit from your punishment for raping.
Your weaknesses are ONLY your weaknesses and your strengths are ONLY your strengths.