Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?

Yosemite

I understand what you are saying.
I must say however, that 'feminism' can mean very different things, just like 'Islam' mean very different things to different people.
Some feminists are extremists, but other feminists are just normal people who what to be treated fairly. We must also keep this in mind. We can not throw the word in the garbage, because there are different things attached to the word. We have to deal with each situation separately.

If someone calls 'working for equal treatment at work' as feminism, then so be it. Let's understand what the meaning the user is trying to convey. Otherwise we can dismiss all things Islam as hand chopping, burqa covering and wife beating. Not very fair to all Muslims in the world.

To tell you frankly, I don't like the word 'feminism' either. However, that's irrelevant, I have to understand how it is used when it is used, and I have to understand it's history and why it has come about. It can be used in different ways. No need to always look at extremists. Otherwise it means that you don't agree women should be treated fairly and get equal pay for equal work when you say there is no need for feminism. See what I'm getting at?

So, can women lead prayer? Of course. At least in the general sense. The Rabb hasn't forbidden it. Perhaps we forbid it in our sects, but that's another story. What we humans do and think, changes over time.

Pax

when the solution is so simple there really is no reason to carry dead weight from the west

first we talk about how women can lead congressional prayers, then we're told that dressing modestly is "subjective", meaning a woman in bikini could lead the congressional prayer, then we start seeing people bring up examples of subsaharan african tribes who didn't evolve beyond hunter/gatherer days, and how their women are so free and can dress so freely, and somehow we all have to live like them all of a sudden because freedom

it's quite simple, in advanced societies, men who dress with tight clothes and who are handsome, they get leered at, when women dress in a similar fashion, they get leered that, there i just figured out the limit for "modest clothing" at the very least in a society that can actually read the quran

now, the problem, how do we actually make these rules i talked about the reality?

we have to make it happen ourselves, hence why individually, we are useless if the ideas are just in our heads and can't be materialized

i see so much data manipulation from feminists concerning statistics, who are given a massive echo boost from the president of the USA himself

then what happens to people who point out the skewed data, sometimes outright false and invented information, from feminists? they're labelled women hater, and the discussion ends there

huruf

but i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour
should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?

That is what you enjoin yourself. Women are subjected to humilliations and lack of freedom inn many countries in spite of the fact that you say that there shouldn't be any feminnism because all problems got solved 1.400 years ago. But if in spite of all problems having been solved millions upon millions of women continue to be mistreated and humilliated, wht yousuggest is do nothing. Because as far as I know femiism exists precisely in order to bring justice to women and thenn you say

"i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour
should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?"

You seem to contradict yourself since you blame those that attempt to get done what the Qur'an intended to do 1.400 and obviously has not been done.

Salaam

Yosemite

That is what you enjoin yourself.

do you have a crystal ball in which you can tell how people lead their lives? what kind of freedom do i enjoy that women don't enjoy, or even didn't enjoy? do i need to remind you that before the sexual "revolution" of the 60's, men had a strong duty to marry, maintain the marriage, and provide for a whole family? and if they didn't, they'd be shamed very strongly? and that women would actually shame men who didn't want to be drafted for the wars? and that after the feminist sexual "revolution", men simply decided to drop that responsibility especially because of said revolution?

today, 70% of men aged from 18 to 30 years old are not married
this percentage used to be 20% before that revolution

what you call "freedom that men enjoyed since forever", that's actually a lie

Women are subjected to humilliations and lack of freedom inn many countries in spite of the fact that you say that there shouldn't be any feminnism because all problems got solved 1.400 years ago.

and men are also subject to humiliation and restriction of "freedom" in many countries, yet somehow you keep throwing that meme around that men are the sole oppressor everywhere at any point in time
this is just ridiculous and you know it

But if in spite of all problems having been solved millions upon millions of women continue to be mistreated and humilliated, wht yousuggest is do nothing. Because as far as I know femiism exists precisely in order to bring justice to women and thenn you say

"i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour
should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?"

and millions upon millions of men also are mistreated, wew lad such a revelation

You seem to contradict yourself since you blame those that attempt to get done what the Qur'an intended to do 1.400 and obviously has not been done.

Salaam

feminists do not intend to do what is in the quran, as evidenced by all the lies spouted by feminists these days

we could say that in the USA, men are all jumping out of the window, and feminists want all women to do the same in the name of "equality"

by the way if we do not define "equality", and "freedom", the discussion will be that more confusing and difficult to have

hawk99

Peace Yosemite feminism in the U.S. is a reaction to sexism.

it's quite simple, in advanced societies

How do you determine what an advance society is?

peace

huruf

do you have a crystal ball in which you can tell how people lead their lives? what kind of freedom do i enjoy that women don't enjoy, or even didn't enjoy? do i need to remind you that before the sexual "revolution" of the 60's, men had a strong duty to marry, maintain the marriage, and provide for a whole family? and if they didn't, they'd be shamed very strongly? and that women would actually shame men who didn't want to be drafted for the wars? and that after the feminist sexual "revolution", men simply decided to drop that responsibility especially because of said revolution?

today, 70% of men aged from 18 to 30 years old are not married
this percentage used to be 20% before that revolution

what you call "freedom that men enjoyed since forever", that's actually a lie
and men are also subject to humiliation and restriction of "freedom" in many countries, yet somehow you keep throwing that meme around that men are the sole oppressor everywhere at any point in time
this is just ridiculous and you know it

and millions upon millions of men also are mistreated, wew lad such a revelation

You seem to contradict yourself since you blame those that attempt to get done what the Qur'an intended to do 1.400 and obviously has not been done.

Salaam

feminists do not intend to do what is in the quran, as evidenced by all the lies spouted by feminists these days

we could say that in the USA, men are all jumping out of the window, and feminists want all women to do the same in the name of "equality"

by the way if we do not define "equality", and "freedom", the discussion will be that more confusing and difficult to have

Never mind, I can recognize when reasoning is completely useless. So I leave you to enjoy at leisure your lalala land fairy tales of poor men persecuted by ever so evil witches .

Zulf

first we talk about how women can lead congressional prayers, then we're told that dressing modestly is "subjective", meaning a woman in bikini could lead the congressional prayer,

These two questions below are connected

How on Earth are leading prayer connected to dress??? In e.g. Protestant churches in Europe, priests, both women and men, are wearing a uniform, i.e. a robe/garb that is quite loose and covering of the body. It seems you are saying that letting women lead prayers is just the first step in them totally taking over and running around naked. Churchy people who are against female priests aren't so because of dress. So why are they? And why would women not lead prayers, even in proper dress?
Do you really think that allowing women to lead prayer would lead to that they eventually would do so in bikini? Is this the real reason you think women should not lead prayer?

good_logic

Peace Zulf.

I hope you do not mind. I allowed myself a smile( may be a giggle!) reading your post.
What is wrong with a woman leading the congregation if all are enjoying a day at the seaside,swimming together, women in bikinis ,men in swimming trunks, and children building castles by the side and the noon prayer is due?

On a serious note, what has gender got to do with praying? Does it matter who is qualified/chosen to lead the congregation?

I fail to understanding our logic! We create complications for both sexes,due to our arrogance and ignorance.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

hawk99

Do you really think that allowing women to lead prayer would lead to that they eventually would do so in bikini? Is this the real reason you think women should not lead prayer?

nope

Does it matter who is qualified/chosen to lead the congregation?

I fail to understanding our logic! We create complications for both sexes, due to our arrogance and ignorance.

and fear and insecurity

You are a happy man Hawk. Try to infect us with that.

I am indeed happy, and have gained a measure of peace (submission, acceptance)
by Allah's leave.

peace

Yosemite

Peace Yosemite feminism in the U.S. is a reaction to sexism.

what kind of sexism? give examples of "sexism" in the western world
are you going to say that, for example, because a vast majority of women who try to pass the ranger's test in the american military fail it, it is sexism?

How do you determine what an advance society is?

peace

quite simple, who comes up with technological advancement? who comes up with high rise buildings? who comes up with rockets?

not all cultures are equal, deal with it

Yosemite

Never mind, I can recognize when reasoning is completely useless. So I leave you to enjoy at leisure your lalala land fairy tales of poor men persecuted by ever so evil witches .

you didn't even write a single coherent sentence in your previous post to me

Yosemite

These two questions below are connected

How on Earth are leading prayer connected to dress??? In e.g. Protestant churches in Europe, priests, both women and men, are wearing a uniform, i.e. a robe/garb that is quite loose and covering of the body. It seems you are saying that letting women lead prayers is just the first step in them totally taking over and running around naked. Churchy people who are against female priests aren't so because of dress. So why are they? And why would women not lead prayers, even in proper dress?

you're arguing with your self, you said it yourself "it seems you said this and that"
i did not say this and that, i was very clear in my post, i remember reading opinions here that stated such situations, i recalled them as i was writing the post

i'm not saying this is what will happen, but everytime this kind of subject comes up, there's always this idea that it ought to be possible and that there can't be anyone to offer criticism based on very empirical observation of the world around us

Do you really think that allowing women to lead prayer would lead to that they eventually would do so in bikini? Is this the real reason you think women should not lead prayer?

one again arguing with yourself here, i never said such things in this thread, and saying that the "modest dress" is something subjective always ends up with someone going this far

Yosemite

Peace Zulf.

I hope you do not mind. I allowed myself a smile( may be a giggle!) reading your post.
What is wrong with a woman leading the congregation if all are enjoying a day at the seaside,swimming together, women in bikinis ,men in swimming trunks, and children building castles by the side and the noon prayer is due?

On a serious note, what has gender got to do with praying? Does it matter who is qualified/chosen to lead the congregation?

I fail to understanding our logic! We create complications for both sexes,due to our arrogance and ignorance.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

here we go, the one i am talking about appeared in the thread as i was writing the post

"it should be perfectly fine for a woman to lead a congressional prayer in a bikini!"

we've come to the limit ladies and gentlemen (i hope i'm not triggering anyone by using these two words)

good_logic

Peace Yosemite.

You are right ,we have come to the limit?

What next, leading the prayer naked?

And yes , we are still a long way from the limit of gender oppression and chauvinism.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

hawk99

quite simple, who comes up with technological advancement? who comes up with high rise buildings? who comes up with rockets?

not all cultures are equal, deal with it

I have no problem "dealing' with reality, I simply asked your opinion.
It appears your definition of advanced society is determined by technology yes/no?
I did not intend to bring out your defensiveness.

what kind of sexism? give examples of "sexism" in the western world
are you going to say that, for example, because a vast majority of women who try to pass the ranger's test in the American military fail it, it is sexism?

uh......no, far from it, sorry to bother you about this topic.

peace

Zulf

you're arguing with your self,

Yes apparently I am. I need to stop.

i'm not saying this is what will happen, but everytime this kind of subject comes up, there's always this idea that it ought to be possible and that there can't be anyone to offer criticism based on very empirical observation of the world around us

Great, then it is safe to have women lead prayer, suitably dressed of course.

Study

How come we pray in groups/masses in the first place?
Not that I've got anything against praying in a group. This is an honest question. Is praying alone in any way disadvantageous?
I can't think of a single mosque where I could pray the way I want to. I'd simply be regarded a kufr.

And I personally wouldn't like for women to pray infront of me, especially not if they are good looking women with an hourglass figure.
I wouldn't want to think about "reproduction" while praying. And in case anyone should be insulted that I/all men think such a thing, please don't be insulted. We are sexually narrow-minded.

good_logic

Peace Zulf.

I was having a laugh with you brother, in my earlier post, and someone took me seriously!

Not that some Muslims do not pray in the beach

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6Dj4sF9Vs

Where is the sense of humour gone?

Zulf, Yosemite, Study,Hawk,Huruf, MOF, Jafar, brothers and sisters, if you find someone or two orthree or... praying in the nude in a beach,, do not assume it is good logic and his mixed gender friends led by an "Imam lady" !!!

GOD bless you.
Peace

Bender

you're playing the moral relativist card, it's as if you're implying you can turn the verse that says murdering people is forbidden into something different

Hi,

You forgot raping, torturing, oppressing, etc

when the quran says it is better to dress modestly, it says it is better to dress modestly

yes agreed, but what does dress modestly mean?
Not everyone has the same definition for dressing modest.
Here in The Netherlands they have other definition then in Saudi Arabia.

i never talked about sins, sins is a very abstract concept hard to gauge in the real world, because it is associated with some kind of mythical god that punishes you on earth if you commit this or that action that is considered a sin

Ok thank you. For me sinning means doing something bad/evil.
If you do not consider it a sin, then what is your problem with it?

when i read the quran, what i read is your actions bring forth consequences, and the consequences can range from being positive for you to negative for you

yes agreed, but we are not talking about ourselves because we wear modest clothes (whatever that may mean to us), we are talking about others. If someone dresses him/herself in a negative way what has that to do with your actions, if it really bad how they dress then it's like I said their problem not yours or mine.

what you're saying is to let uneducated people have influence over others

I have no idea what you mean with uneducated people, but how can they influence you if you are an educated one? You should be smart enough not to let them influence you.

i find it interesting that you have this kind of mentality, it very much looks like you only believe in a one way street freedom system, where people can actually BEHAVE however they like to, but i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour

If I believe in a freedom system, then I must also believe in freedom of speech, thus that YOU CAN offer critic on whoever or whatever you like.

should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?

RED Sorry I do not know what this folsom street fair is.
GREEN I guess so.

what call the law? the arab elite have tried to impose their laws on the arab people, the arab world ends up getting destroyed in mere months by americans

not sure what your point is.

the quran isn't a book only for individuals, it's for the group as well as for the individual

not every one believes in the quran.

in the USA for example, and the western world, freedom has slowly turned into irresponsible freedom, where people reject their own personal responsibilities for their actions

it's like you believe in this type of freedom

I believe in freedom as long as this freedom does not hurt fellow humans or animals or nature in general.
I do not like, piercing, tattoos, nudity,etc , but I have absolutely no problem with people who have piercings, tattoos or go to nude beaches as long as they do not harm others or nature in general.
Those who pierce their body, it's their body who gets holes not mine. Those who do tattoos are painting their bodies not mine. Those who go naked, are the ones who are naked not me.
And if they like it, then who am I to judge them?

But what is modest dressing according to you, can you show me a picture of what you think is the minimal. And what should we do to people who go beyond this minimum.

savage_carrot

Zulf, Yosemite, Study,Hawk,Huruf, MOF, Jafar, brothers and sisters, if you find someone or two orthree or... praying in the nude in a beach,, do not assume it is good logic and his mixed gender friends led by an "Imam lady" !!!
And this is how one goes from suitably dressed to bikinis and then...nude. I for one won't assume and just take it for a fact

huruf

If one is praying with other people one will always have to pray in any possible way for all to have their comfort. You like, he likes, she likes they like, we like, I like, the other likes... We all like things, and we have to arrange things so that nobody is slighted. If one cannot do that, then by all means, pray on your own or only with people you know they are going to adapt to your likes or who do not have a particular like that clashes with your likes.

When I was little in the church in my village, there used to be foremost the children, then the younger women, then the older women,then there was the door of the church, then, all back, older men, and on the choire upstairs younger men. As it was it was older people who were closest to the door of the church. These were peasants, unsophisticated people, basic school only, but at least they had unsophisticated but respectful manners and the arragement was so that the acknowledged courtesy of ladies first was honoured and the older people was closest to the door, so they could get out first and not walk much, and the foremost places were not for the strongest and powerful but for the least so.

I wonder many, many times, why so many self called muslims show themselves so little manly and sort of proud of not being so.

Why is it so simple for people who are not very cultured or sophisticated to be plain courteos and respectful of women, children and older people and why for others who seem to swim in worldly knowledge to be just simply manly turns out to be such a tough job as if someone were wringing their arms from their body?

Why is it so painful for some people to allow others the same room they allow for themselves if they only see the possibility of getting away with not doing it? Is that cogent with the feeling that if we are not great in our everyday life at least in the mosques we should show our best behaviour? Looks as if the aim was exactly the opposite. In daily life you watch yourself, but when you go to the mosque there you are the king and women should know their place.

Salaam