Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?

[es]

Peace,

You hit the nail on the head. The Islamic gymnastic sessions known as salat just goes to show how spiritually dead the religion is. It's so dead that their imaginary God completely forgot to address the physically disabled on how they should perform the gymnastic sessions let alone how take part in the yearly marathon hajj. Your obedience to God depends entirely on taking part in the gymnastic sessions. Just take a look at this silly interpretation of 3/43
Q;0343 - O Maryam, be devoutly obedient to your LORD and PROSTRATE and KNEEL WITH THOSE WHO KNEEL.

Apparently, Maryams obedience to the Rabb depended on her performing some physical movements, "bow", "prostrate" and "kneel with those who kneel". In other words, you need a fully functioning body in order for to be "devoutly obedient" to the Rabb. If you were paralyzed or born physically deformed, you are the opposite of being obedient. Disobedient. This imaginary God who forgot to address your disabilities will now torture you for eternity because you were disobedient and did not "bow, kneel and prostrate" with the devoutly obedient.
For reference, here is what "devoutly obedient" women look like.
https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcTYeQZlLDxqgp7E-1tMoI8OwZOqjoJvkNIvvAWDr8Iu3EGoDmAr

Let me just super clear here. Devout obedience to the Rabb is not spiritual but a MATERIAL matter. Frankly, Islam is nothing more than a materialistic religion that has its entire focus on material matters. Marathon hajj, gymnastic salat, religious uniform, "halal" food, list of prohibitions such as having dogs as pets, dying hair, using nail polish, eating with right hand, starving yourself 30 days a year etc. A women's piety depends on whether she has a piece of cloth wrapped around her head to cover the hair follicles on her head. It has completely neglected the Ruh/soul and its needs. It doesn't teach self-awareness or self-control but the urge for revenge and engaging in pagan rituals. Religion leads to spiritual death. You are dead before your physical body even died. In other words, you were unaware of yourself. You never existed because you failed to know yourself. If you fail to control your body, just blame the invisible horned dude made of fire flying around and whispering into peoples ears. Play the blame game.

Islam only seems to work in a closed environment. It is just incompatible with not just different genders mixing,but also different cultures and religions. When you join this cult, you must give up your culture and wear the Islamic uniform and eat "halal" food. Like street gangs, Islam is in competition with rival cults. It belittles of other cults for doing the exact same thing they're doing. Cube Idol/Wailing Wall, Halal food/Kosher food, Hadith books/Talmud books, religious uniform as well as the idolization of dead people Muhammad/Jesus and sahaba/disciples.

Here is a comparison between the people Islam considers to be mushriks and the "devoutly obedient" who kneel, bow and prostrate.
http//i.imgur.com/cVU7p90.jpg

It just isn't worth arguing about whether women should be allowed to join and lead the gymnastic sessions known as salat because it is a baseless argument. There is no point even performing it so why bother arguing on who can join and who cannot when the whole thing is based on falsehood?

Peace

From where did you get this "mushrik" image?

[es]

Salaam huruf,

There is something very wrong with all this.

If men cannot pray and want women far from them because they cannot concentrate ?why on earth do they drive buses, why on earth do they sell things, why on earth do they work in offices, why on earth are they even out in the streets? It is dangerous, they are full of cars. If they cannot concentrate on what they are doing, being anywhere at all where there may be women in front of their eyes, specially driving is a real danger.

Only women should drive by those standards and only women should do a lot of things.

I do not believe for one second that there are any men that, if they do not want to be distracted, can be distracted from prayers by a woman more than by any other thing. But by saying so, they gurantee their right to their commfortable statu quo where their ego is pampered an taken as the measure for everything.

Everybody has to fight distraction while praying or while doing annything else, and the most distracting thing is oneself. Why should their distractableness be visited on somebody else.

This distraction nonsense, in which I do not believe for a second, is themost ridiculous excuse for trampling on the dignity of other people. Too bad women were stupid and did not think of saying that they were distracted by men before men came up with such ailment and that men should pray behind the women or stay home.

No man with dignity and self respect would have thought of such a ridiculous and self demeaning excuse to get privileges. They seem to want to be treated all teir lives as if they were minors unable to become adults and have a grip on themselves. Obviously when one reaches certain age and insists on being considered irresponsible is at the same time relinquishing any claim to being respected. Respected by someone to whom they are confessing that they cannot control themselves? And out of the mosque they can control themselves? Pleaaaaase.

Haven't we had enough of this cheap sexual theatre displayed to cling to privileges while disdaining the most elementary courtesy due to persons who are the mothers of human beings.

All that sweet talk about how much respect for women is showed in islam is pure hypocrisy when at the same time keeping a discourse which is pure rudeness.

Salaam

Bravo! yay

[Study]

I do not believe for one second that there are any men that, if they do not want to be distracted, can be distracted from prayers by a woman more than by any other thing. But by saying so, they gurantee their right to their commfortable statu quo where their ego is pampered an taken as the measure for everything.

Everybody has to fight distraction while praying or while doing annything else, and the most distracting thing is oneself. Why should their distractableness be visited on somebody else.

This distraction nonsense, in which I do not believe for a second, is themost ridiculous excuse for trampling on the dignity of other people.

Sorry, I strongly disagree, it may because of all the porn that I've seen (doubt it), however the "traditional" way of salat (bending) simply seems to inviting for the male, even if you close your eyes, you know it's happening in front of you.

I feel so bad for saying this right now and I don't want to blasphemy, but simply for the sake of argumentation. Imagine the "traditional" way of praying would be thrusting your hip. Like in "coitus", and the men is leading and he's facing women.
Similar to this video https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQTYU3O6H3o only difference = more thrust and he's facing people instead of a wall.
Pretty sure that women would be struggling just as bad in such a case.

All that sweet talk about how much respect for women is showed in islam is pure hypocrisy when at the same time keeping a discourse which is pure rudeness.

I aggree with you on this.

[hawk99]

There is something very wrong with all this.

If men cannot pray and want women far from them because they cannot concentrate ?why on earth do they drive buses, why on earth do they sell things, why on earth do they work in offices, why on earth are they even out in the streets? It is dangerous, they are full of cars. If they cannot concentrate on what they are doing, being anywhere at all where there may be women in front of their eyes, specially driving is a real danger.

Only women should drive by those standards and only women should do a lot of things.

I do not believe for one second that there are any men that, if they do not want to be distracted, can be distracted from prayers by a woman more than by any other thing. But by saying so, they gurantee their right to their commfortable statu quo where their ego is pampered an taken as the measure for everything.

Everybody has to fight distraction while praying or while doing annything else, and the most distracting thing is oneself. Why should their distractableness be visited on somebody else.

This distraction nonsense, in which I do not believe for a second, is themost ridiculous excuse for trampling on the dignity of other people. Too bad women were stupid and did not think of saying that they were distracted by men before men came up with such ailment and that men should pray behind the women or stay home.

No man with dignity and self respect would have thought of such a ridiculous and self demeaning excuse to get privileges. They seem to want to be treated all teir lives as if they were minors unable to become adults and have a grip on themselves. Obviously when one reaches certain age and insists on being considered irresponsible is at the same time relinquishing any claim to being respected. Respected by someone to whom they are confessing that they cannot control themselves? And out of the mosque they can control themselves? Pleaaaaase.

Haven't we had enough of this cheap sexual theatre displayed to cling to privileges while disdaining the most elementary courtesy due to persons who are the mothers of human beings.

All that sweet talk about how much respect for women is showed in islam is pure hypocrisy when at the same time keeping a discourse which is pure rudeness.

Salaam

I agree, well said

I feel so bad for saying this right now and I don't want to blasphemy, but simply for the sake of argumentation. Imagine the "traditional" way of praying would be thrusting your hip. Like in "coitus", and the men is leading and he's facing women.
Similar to this video https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQTYU3O6H3o only difference = more thrust and he's facing people instead of a wall.
Pretty sure that women would be struggling just as bad in such a case.

What if......a giraffe could fly.....or we could eat rocks.....Let's stick with what is
brother study

peace

[es]

Peace "Study",

Sorry, I strongly disagree, it may because of all the porn that I've seen (doubt it), however the "traditional" way of salat (bending) simply seems to inviting for the male, even if you close your eyes, you know it's happening in front of you.

I feel so bad for saying this right now and I don't want to blasphemy, but simply for the sake of argumentation. Imagine the "traditional" way of praying would be thrusting your hip. Like in "coitus", and the men is leading and he's facing women.
Similar to this video https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQTYU3O6H3o only difference = more thrust and he's facing people instead of a wall.

Are you trying to be moronic or is it simply an innate gift that you've been blessed with?

[Study]

You mentioned not wanting women praying in front of you. Well, I can understand that in context of the sunni/shia/.. traditional yoga like salutations. I guess the so called Islamic style prayer where you expose your bottom towards those behind you simply doesn't allow for women and men mixed without putting to much pressure on men that are mentally defenceless against their hormones.

So I'm changing my mind. I was foolish enough to think in terms of purpose of prayer. I totally forgot that what people are engaged in during the salat/namaz (or whatever you call it that happens in masjids) is basically something physical and material, and has virtually nothing to do with connection to your Rabb (prayer). Islam apparently has a built-in design in the practises that make mixing problematic.

So now my statement is amended like this

Women can definately lead people in prayer, but perhaps they should not bend down and exposing their "hour glass figure" in front of people when leading the Islamic bowing and bending ritual. Obviously, these are different things.... prayer vs bending. When I say prayer, I mean the group activity of deliberate attention through guided focus pertaining to expressing gratitude and wishes etc in relation to the Rabb. Therefor prayer is different from Islamic Bending. Women may lead prayer, but perhaps not Islamic Bending. Men just won't be able to handle it.

Just to make sure I got this right, you're saying that the physical movements standing, bowing and prostrating. Are not Quranic?
Please explain, why does the Quran mention these movements? Metaphorical?

These are "the monotheist group"'s translations, mind that I don't know Arabic.
2238 Maintain the contact prayers; and the middle contact prayer; and stand for God dutifully.
2239 But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

Does the first verse not tell that we have to "stand" for God?
Doesn't the second verse in this case show that it is meant physically, telling us that in case we have to run out of fear, that we are pardoned?

56 O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall purify. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be thankful.

Do you do the spiritual cleansing? Or do you have a different approach on this as well? No offence, sincere interest.
and this verse tells us to "rise" to hold the prayer doesn't it?

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be behind you; and let a group who has not yet made the contact prayer come and make the contact prayer with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

The praying group is standing.

2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."

4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek the blessings and approval of God. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Gospel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be behind you(end of salat); and let a group who has not yet made the contact prayer come and make the contact prayer with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

[Study]

Peace "Study",

Are you trying to be moronic or is it simply an innate gift that you've been blessed with?

It's probably an innate gift that I've been blessed with. Stupidity is bliss?

I was being serious, seems like you didn't get what I was trying to get at. Let me try again.
A woman bending in front of a man.
That's the same thing that happens during sex. She's getting ready for the penetration.
I can't believe I have to write it out like this. nope
Therefore when a man sees a woman who is bending in front of him, he starts to think of sex.

People nowadays willingly provocate the opposite sex. See twerking videos in which women shake their bottoms.
Men provocate women as well. Don't know if you haven't noticed but there is something similar to twerking, that's being done by men, they're thrusting their hips whilst dancing, imitating sex. Known for such videos is channing tatum, just an example.

I don't get how you can miss the connection between this and women leading namaz.
It's natural for men to think of sex when they see a women bend in front of them.
Just like it is natural for women to think of sex when they see a men thrust their hips.

Sure there may be a few special snowflakes here and there, unfortunately most of mankind aren't. Does that mean that they have to stop getting into contact with their Rabb? Aren't they praying so that they too can become like these special snowflakes? Well excuse me for not having reached such mental enlightenment.
Seriously though, what's the need of getting so offensive? '(

I agree, well said

What if......a giraffe could fly.....or we could eat rocks.....Let's stick with what is
brother study

peace

Thanks for making that clear.
That's what I was trying to get at.
If thrusting hips would be reality, well then, men shouldn't lead.
However, in reality namaz is done whilst bending (at least in generall) and not whilst thrusting hips, therefore women shouldn't be leading.
I don't understand why people try and find sexism in something like this.
There are SERIOUS sexist problems, in which women are trully being suppressed.
Why force sexism in something that is in no way meant to suppress women?
peace Peace peace

[es]

It's probably an innate gift that I've been blessed with. Stupidity is bliss?

I was being serious, seems like you didn't get what I was trying to get at. Let me try again.
A woman bending in front of a man.
That's the same thing that happens during sex. She's getting ready for the penetration.
I can't believe I have to write it out like this. nope
Therefore when a man sees a woman who is bending in front of him, he starts to think of sex.

People nowadays willingly provocate the opposite sex. See twerking videos in which women shake their bottoms.
Men provocate women as well. Don't know if you haven't noticed but there is something similar to twerking, that's being done by men, they're thrusting their hips whilst dancing, imitating sex. Known for such videos is channing tatum, just an example.

I don't get how you can miss the connection between this and women leading namaz.
It's natural for men to think of sex when they see a women bend in front of them.
Just like it is natural for women to think of sex when they see a men thrust their hips.

Sure there may be a few special snowflakes here and there, unfortunately most of mankind aren't. Does that mean that they have to stop getting into contact with their Rabb? Aren't they praying so that they too can become like these special snowflakes? Well excuse me for not having reached such mental enlightenment.
Seriously though, what's the need of getting so offensive? '(

Thanks for making that clear.
That's what I was trying to get at.
If thrusting hips would be reality, well then, men shouldn't lead.
However, in reality namaz is done whilst bending (at least in generall) and not whilst thrusting hips, therefore women shouldn't be leading.
I don't understand why people try and find sexism in something like this.
There are SERIOUS sexist problems, in which women are trully being suppressed.
Why force sexism in something that is in no way meant to suppress women?
peace Peace peace

Yes, you're right- a woman bending over is getting ready for penetration! Just like the simple fact that women exist, they are just awaiting penetration in every orifice depending on whatever takes your fancy.

Well done. You've surpassed yourself.

[Study]

Yes, you're right- a woman bending over is getting ready for penetration! Just like the simple fact that women exist, they are just awaiting penetration in every orifice depending on whatever takes your fancy.

Well done. You've surpassed yourself.

That's the same thing that happens during sex. She's getting ready for the penetration.

I said "during sex".
Not at all times.
I take that you don't believe in Evolution?
I do.
Our "lower forms" have performed coitus while on all four. Meaning that females were bending while the male got on top of her.
Performing that way also managed getting maximum stimulation to the most sensitive parts of their reproductive organs.

So yes, bending down has always been a natural way for women to get ready for coitus.
Sorry to disappoint you, not a retard, simply thinking differently.

Feel free to disagree, it's not like I'm forcing my ideas onto anyone.

However may I add that I find your implication that I am thinking lowly of women is simply wrong.
"Just like the simple fact that women exist, they are just awaiting penetration in every orifice depending on whatever takes your fancy."
I never said that.
I do think that women and men are different, however in no way do I think that women are below men.
Nor do I consider them a piece of meat. I see women as intellectual individuals.

Peace.

[As-Salaatayn]

Es,

Your comment was obnoxious and excessive.

Salam.

[Study]

Es,

Your comment was obnoxious and excessive.

Salam.

In all fairness though, most eastern countries and the therein lying ideologies are oppressive towards females, they're male-dominated.
I didn't distance myself enough from their mentality/ideologies.
Therefore I find it understandable that I may be categorized as such when reading my previous comment.
And her frustation towards such mentality is understandable. Her choice of words were in my opinion wrong, however her anger is the result of a more deep and complex problem.

Be well.

[As-Salaatayn]

Study,

You don't have to do all of that explaining. Only bigoted minds would make so many assumptions about you. What you said was simple, true and helpful. I did not misinterpret you or make ANY assumptions about your background.

This same sort of mentality displayed by the people arguing what you said is the mentality that has led to many Western Christian women going to church in tight or short skirts and showing cleavage. Of course the men who look at them or are distracted by them are just nasty, sex-crazed men who shouldn't even be allowed in a church or any decent human place because they must be sex-crazed perverts who can't even function in normal society. nope Unbelievable!!!

Have you seen the youtube video "Gospel from the strippers pole" ??

I know it is extreme but this is the beginning. Soon no Muslim man will have the right to say anything about how Muslim women are dressed EVEN if they quote directly from the Quran. Believe it!!

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1B6yaqbtxU

Notice how this man is completely submissiveto this nonsense!

Of course, any of you men who entertained any "inappropriate" thoughts while listening to her Christian sermon are just sexual perverts who should not be allowed into society, let alone into any religious institution!!

nope Unbelievable!

Salam

[Study]

Study,

You don't have to do all of that explaining. Only bigoted minds would make so many assumptions about you. What you said was simple, true and helpful. I did not misinterpret you or make ANY assumptions about your background.

This same sort of mentality displayed by the people arguing what you said is the mentality that has led to many Western Christian women going to church in tight or short skirts and showing cleavage. Of course the men who look at them or are distracted by them are just nasty, sex-crazed men who shouldn't even be allowed in a church or any decent human place because they must be sex-crazed perverts who can't even function in normal society. nope Unbelievable!!!

Have you seen the youtube video "Gospel from the strippers pole" ??

I know it is extreme but this is the beginning. Soon no Muslim man will have the right to say anything about how Muslim women are dressed EVEN if they quote directly from the Quran. Believe it!!

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1B6yaqbtxU

Notice how this man is completely submissiveto this nonsense!

Of course, any of you men who entertained any "inappropriate" thoughts while listening to her Christian sermon are just sexual perverts who should not be allowed into society, let alone into any religious institution!!

nope Unbelievable!

Salam

Well, this video sure is "extreme".
Check out this video https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2D_bY-GF4 rotfl
I think they're just individuals, no need to worry that they're going to change the mind of the masses. Which would be a nice thing if they managed to do anyway, it's not like the mainstream islam is quranic.

But I wonder what you mean with "quote directly from the Quran".
Where in the Quran are "clear" instructions on how a women should dress? Isn't that up to interpretation?
The Quran as far I know tells women to dress moderately, how do we define moderate? Does that meaning not vary depending on what culture/country one lives in?

Anyway, I believe we're getting offtopic (wanted to use this smiley ;D)

To answer OP, if what you understand under salat is different than what I've learned (not physical), than I see no problem in women taking the lead.

[Study]

Laying in bed right now, reflecting on this discussion and I just realised how wrong our behaviour is and I regret having linked that video.
We don't know what kind of connection they may have with God. We're being superficial and may be worse people than them. To us our belief and to them theirs.

[As-Salaatayn]

Salam,

The Quran explicitly tells women to cover up the bosom/chest, which includes the collar bones. 2431

It explicitly speaks about wearing 'long clothing'. 3359

It also explicitly forbids tabarrruj, which includes clothing that shows women's form or shape.

2460, 3333

Salaam

[Man_of_Faith]

Now you invent something using the Arabic, al-salataayn. It does not tell about form and shape in the last two passages but about using charm, i.e. act alluringly, conspicuously and thus make a display of yourself. A woman can use her form and shape and mode of dress for that purpose. Most traditional translators actually get the word right in their translations.

Be safe
Amenuel

[huruf]

If insted of such long crusades for women clothing, menn who indulge in them did their "own" crusade for men's self-control they would be better served.

The ayas quoted are always twisted so as to serve their purpose con fiscalizing women, and never in their ontext and in their own meaning. Like using 33.59 what the person ho uses it what he is saying is that he is a hypocrite, because it was because of the hypocrites at a tie on the believers were being persecuted that aya says what it says, whatever it is, because this is always not the same thing.

So what is this disease that when someone virtue is at stake the talk revolves about some one else doing this or that.

Why do we get for hundreds or rather thousands of times, we, the women, who are not the culprits, ayas taken out of context and twisted for their purpose, and above all

WHY do they not get down to their own ayas. There is aa beautiful sura of Yusuf, showing how a real believing man behaves.

Men on a crusade

Go back to something worth and talk about Yusuf and compare yourselves with him and other prophets and worthy men, dead oor alive, and eave us alone. We do not need your fiscalazing nor your watching over us as if we were your prize.

You owe to yourselves and you owe to God, in this question the only thing you owe us is not your teachings because you have none for us that we coudn't get ourselves andyou are no example, what you owe us is respect and if you are unable to show that just don't tell us anything. Nothing at all. Any disponibility you have for lessons, teach them to yourselves, you need them much more.

And grow up.

Salaam

[Yosemite]

Hi,
yes agreed, but what does dress modestly mean?
Not everyone has the same definition for dressing modest.
Here in The Netherlands they have other definition then in Saudi Arabia.

and all across the west we keep hearing feminists and many women say "why are men staring at me!" when women won't hesitate staring at a handsome men dress unmodestly

what defines modesty is simple you look at the behaviour of people around people not dressed modestly

Ok thank you. For me sinning means doing something bad/evil.
If you do not consider it a sin, then what is your problem with it?

because "evil", "bad", "sin", they're all buzzwords that do not give a realistic view of what really happens
lots of people still believe that promiscuity is not wrong because the immediate reward you get from being promiscuous feels good, yet in the usa, they talk about STD epidemics

so is promiscuity "evil" or "bad"? how would you argue that promiscuity is "bad" or "evil" to someone who promotes to people around them and who practice this in their daily lives, and who hides behind pretensions of freedom to spread an idea that's actually false? If you start offering criticism to such people, they will say "you are a prude you hate sex" when you've actually never talked about the act itself but a very specific behaviour
i've spoken to so many individuals like that in the west, every time they bring up the same fallacies to genuine concerns that can be observed by anyone

yes agreed, but we are not talking about ourselves because we wear modest clothes (whatever that may mean to us), we are talking about others. If someone dresses him/herself in a negative way what has that to do with your actions, if it really bad how they dress then it's like I said their problem not yours or mine.

let's say i decide to wear a golden chain with golden watch and diamond with golden rings, and go to a poor neighborhood that is known to be run by gangs and what not
i dressed immodestly, and will risk receiving great harm as a result
i bring up that example because it is something that often happens
my action was to dress that way, and it wasn't a sin, it wasn't evil, it wasn't bad, yet i received negative attention from this action
it becomes our problem when activists manage to get the president to parrot blatant lies and fabrications

I have no idea what you mean with uneducated people, but how can they influence you if you are an educated one? You should be smart enough not to let them influence you.

because i'm not talking about myself i'm talking about people who are easily influenced, and who are led by equally uneducated people but who have ill intentions in mind
in the west, people tried to influence me to get drunk to the point i wouldn't be able to stand, to do drugs, to go to prostitutes or to engage in promiscuous behaviour, yet none offered to help me in areas where i needed help, like mathematics for example
and this happens to so many people, it's tragic

in the end it is freedom to become a failure, and i don't call this freedom i call this delusion

If I believe in a freedom system, then I must also believe in freedom of speech, thus that YOU CAN offer critic on whoever or whatever you like.

once again going back to precedents, many who tried to offer criticism of feminism in the usa or canada have been ostracised violently, their names and reputation destroyed by the media using lies and fabrications, outright trying to ban words (like the ban bossy campaign) even if the intention wasn't to actually ban words they still spread the notion that a word should be banned

and i didn't even touch the subject of criticism of sunni islam or wahabism yet, it is not as widespread but it is definitely more intense as you can actually get killed for speaking about unconvenient truths concerning this subject

RED Sorry I do not know what this folsom street fair is.
GREEN I guess so.

don't google it

not sure what your point is.

rule of law doesn't mean much, there are strong laws that are imposed on the people in the middle east, yet the system they have there produced countries that trail behind compared to the west

not every one believes in the quran.

i talk about the group of people who follow it

I believe in freedom as long as this freedom does not hurt fellow humans or animals or nature in general.
I do not like, piercing, tattoos, nudity,etc , but I have absolutely no problem with people who have piercings, tattoos or go to nude beaches as long as they do not harm others or nature in general.
Those who pierce their body, it's their body who gets holes not mine. Those who do tattoos are painting their bodies not mine. Those who go naked, are the ones who are naked not me.
And if they like it, then who am I to judge them?

it's the same issue as with the promiscuous behaviour i described earlier

But what is modest dressing according to you, can you show me a picture of what you think is the minimal. And what should we do to people who go beyond this minimum.

whether it be in turkey, france, germany, or sweden, most men wear comfortable loose pants with loose shirts/tops

as soon as you start seeing people check you out, it's time to wear something else to be honest you would only know that feeling if it happened to you though

or move inw with one of those wonderful tropical tribes who wear nothing

as for those who don't follow that very simple logic, they either stop complaining about people checking them out or people taking pictures of them, or they change clothes, i mean it's freedom after all, and if you're in the public place, you can't complain about being taken a picture of by others

[Yosemite]

If insted of such long crusades for women clothing, menn who indulge in them did their "own" crusade for men's self-control they would be better served.

to be honest you would only know that women stare at handsome men dressed immodestly if it happened to you

in the quran, it says everyone has to dress modestly, you seem to hate the idea that it is the case for women as well

"So what is this disease that when someone virtue is at stake the talk revolves about some one else doing this or that. "

this is what i witness in the west women that can protest completely naked, but if anyone dares criticize that protest, they're labelled "prudish", "homosexual", and many other labels

men have become so docile in the west they are afraid to speak up anymore

so what should i say when i see something like this happen? is it me that should shut my mouth, or is it the NAKED WOMAN IN THE STREET that should be dressed up instead of complaining about being observed, taken photos and videos of, cat called, so on and so forth

that's the extreme scenario, and i see no reason why i shouldn't use that extreme as an example because it happened multiple times in multiple european countries and the usa as well

[es]

Salaam, A-S,

Es,

Your comment was obnoxious and excessive.

Salam.

I find your views on women obnoxious and excessive. Touch?.

Peace.