the Secret of gospel ?

[FreedomStands]

Hi, just a quick question! If any of you actually care, why do you actually care? Serious question!

[noshirk]

Salaam All Again
Ok, ok, ok.
i understand that hypothesis that David and Salomon were in fact persians and that jealous "jews" adapted this fantastic story to a "jewish" context.

but there is is another argument for this amazing theory The queen of saba.

it seems that historic queen of saba lived in era of cyrus the great and darius and not before.
there is an anachronism problem between biblical queen of saba and kingdom of saba

according to this link (french)
http//philippelopes.free.fr/RoyaumeDeSaba.htm

http//philippelopes.free.fr/RuinesMaribYemen.jpg
this is what arabs calls haram balkis near maarib in yemen.
it is a temple where sun and moon were whorshipped like quran said about queen of saba. It is dated in 6th centuru before christ by hamadani. that's era of darius and co.

here also http//bible.archeologie.free.fr/reinedesaba.html (french)
we have also the indication that archeology seems to place "saba kingdom" more later than the biblical jewish salomon, 2500 yeas ago, in era of rising of the great persain empire

i want to add this map
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Map_of_the_Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea.jpg/1280px-Map_of_the_Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea.jpg

it is a reconstitition according a book of trade written in first century. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea
interesting to note
1- whare saba is placed
2-how red sea was a commercial route.
3-no camels, no mecca, no yathrib in trade.

Peace

[huruf]

Sulayman seems to me a diminutive with the ending in -an which is a common ending in Arabic like rahmaan, with an expansive meaning.

Salaam

[noshirk]

salaam

just to share a new interesting possible finding

as i said before, Israel represent the "priesthood", bani Israel who feed from priesthood.
History of israel is a perpetual hijacking of true prophety.

Now, let's consider story of soleiman and queen of saba.
my best candidate for soleyman is darius (while cyrus the great would be daoud)

the book of esther is probaby a inversed hijacking of story of queen of saba
story of esther is clearly a tale with complete non sense.
However, it is a "jewish" women who married the king og kings of persian empire.

in this link
https//pppministries.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/esther-queen-of-persiairan-wife-of-darius-1/
we found a calculation who make history of esther fit with era of darius.

so, let's resume.
israel made two stories with soleyman and queen saba.
-1- a tale where solayman is jewish and queen of saba from somewhere else
-2- a tale where a jewish queen marry the persian king of kings.

thse could be 2 differents distorsions of one reality.

and reality might be in fact be very funny, Queen of saba is the only jewish in the story. More precisely, an arabian yemenite jewish women

there is also a funny other book called "targum sheni"
is a kind of other "book of esther" who mix a new version of story of esther with a new version of "saba/soleiman" with much more similarities with quran

from a quranic point of view, it is interesting to note tha saba is mentionned in another verse (34-15) who seems to link saba with dam of marib (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marib_Dam)
so it wold be there a confirmation that is was queen of saba a daughter of "Israel".
Obviouly, it seems that rabbis didnt like that since Issa/Zoraaster, prophety basculated to the persian side.
Daniel and many other "jewish prophets" seems to be not prophet at all.

very funny also, Hodhod, the "bird" of soleyman story, the actual national bird of israel state, is quite the name of the father of balkis, the arabian name of queen of saba. And the hodhod, can be stupidly translated as the jewjew.

Allah knows best

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Indeed Queen Muruh was an Arab

[noshirk]

Salaam All

3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm (DABBATOU El ARDH) kept eating from his staff (MINSA'A), so when he fell down, the Jinn realized that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.

This verse about death of Soleyman is problematic. How can we imagine Soleyman dead, sitting somewhere, with no move, not going to bed at night, during a long period, making peoples beliving him alive ?
This is not possible and then the verse should have another meaning, more allegorical.

the first question is what is dabbatou el arrdh ?

2782 And when the punishment has been deserved by them, We will bring out for them a creature from the earth (Dabbaton mina ardh), it will speak to them that the people have been unaware regarding Our revelations.

The best interpretation of dabbatou el ardh is the actual web. it is something that expanded trhough the world, with no real mind, from earth, telling truth (and also lies and all bullshihs imanginable. Web is a way however to spread truh for truth seekers. For many of us, web is the "beast" that informed us that another reading of quran. free-minds.orf is in this beast.

whatever is the "beast" of 34-14, it could be the beast of 27-82, so something with no mind and telling truth.

Interesting also the word Minsaa'to, traduced by staff. Root points to nassa'a wich is forgetting.
So our 34-14 can be understood that a beast telling truth is eating the lies that put soleyman in the limbo forgetting. A kind of allegorical death.

there is many differences between the quranic Soleyman and the biblical saloman. Quran sas that soleyman is a prophet, bible that he is just a king. Quran says that Soleyman never disbelieved while bible says that he ended as polytheist.

Searching what is the possible link between a worm and soleyman, i fall on a legend concerning the building of temple of salomon.
the link for beginning the search is here https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon's_shamir

shamir is then, according to old hebraic text, a worm who engraved the stones for salomon Temple. This worm was used because salomon temple has to be build without using iron tools (mentionned in old testament, book of kings). I already spoke about links between iron and salomon in quran.

Funningly, this legend (http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2019-asmodeus) speaks aboud a demon who had the "worm in his possession" and who build the temple. And this demon, stole the throne of salomon end send Salomon very far from his initial land.

For me, who beleive that salomon is in fact persian (probably Darius I), replaced by a "jinns" invention of an hebrew Salomon, all this is very funny.
Probably, web is eating the "staff" on wich the false Salomon was standing.
Quran, i think, plays with old beliefs. And it is very possible that quran is, in someway, alluding to shamir and asmodeus legend.
Gospel make me understood that some people, good believers, can use allegorical texts to spread secrets that official theology forbids.
And i haven't to expose how much the false temple of salomon and the false salomon are important in the israeli mythology nowadays.

I am really frustated to not be able to expose better complex ideas with my poor english

Peace

[noshirk]

salaam
i forgot something

asmodeus, the demon of salomon lead us towards the book of Tobias (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Tobit).
one interesting thing there is that we find Tobias in both niniveh (Jonas country) and Media (part of the persian empire).
Book of tobias has a very interesting allegoric dimension (fish, blindness, something to recover in persia...).

i have noticed far ago the phonetic similiraty between Media (whose people are called medianites) and the famous quranic median. I wonder now if it is just a phonetic similiraty. there is a kind a bipolarity in quran in people following old scriptures (jews and nassara, arabia and persia, medina and median).
For me, christiannity is just a mix of the two worlds. Old testament is from first world and second testament from the second one.
and old testament is full of links towards persia (esther, Tobias, Jonas, Cyrus presented quite as a Messiah ...).

peace

[noshirk]

Salaam

Perhaps i am on a false trail. However let's try to study it.

Let consider that Medina an Madian, the two famous cities of quran, are referencing the two major divisions of religious poles the arabian side and the persian mesopotamiam parts.

Root of the two words are clearly deen.
Root of word Medina has nothing to do with the meaning of town.

Alleged Root mdn has no other derivative than medina and it is very strange.

Salaam All

After some research, i get the conclusion that i cannot prove that medina is not a word that mean town in general in quran.
However, i defy whoever to proove that medina, in quran, is not a name of one town and only one town.

so i will continue with that hypothesis

all people here believe that median is name of one town and only one town.
i ealy post i noticed that medina is same root as deen (traduced generally bu word religion) .
According to dictionnary, medina is the place where people obey to something (it can be both to words of god or to a political chief)

The form median can point, from my point of view, to a meaning of town containing temple. (for example, in arabic, khobz mean breead and makhbaz a bakery)

so, from my arabic root understanding, Medina would be the political capital and Median the religious capital.

Let see now uses in quran

MEDINA occurences

Medina is town where there is people around (9-101; 9-120)
A man coming from the fathest part of medina ask to follow messengers (36-20).

People of cave where near medina (18-19)
sourate the cave also. Medina is the town where Mussa built wall to protect treasure of two orphans (18-82)

Nabi Lot where at medina 15-67
Hypocrites coming from medina (muhammad era) 33-60 and 63-8
Moses and Firaoun are at medina (28-18;28-20;28-15;20-40; 7-123)
Medina is where people rejected prophet salih 27-48
Medina is where prophet Youssef was jailed 12-30 (so it is also misr)

MEDIAN occurences

Median is where chuaib preached (7-85;29-36;11-84)
Median is where Moses take refuge after killing a man (28-23; 28-45?)
28-45 is speaking about probably Moses preaching there.

Ashab (&#1616 median is used in 9-70 and 22-44. Ashab of median is not exactly same meaning as people of median. Google traduction give for Ashab meaning of Owners/holders/employers.
interesting to compare 22-43 and 22-44. People of Abraham, people of Lot but Ashab Median.
The same distinction is found in 9-70. it is only in median where we have word Ashab

Median is as far as thamud (11-95).

That are all occurences i found .

It is intersting to note that thamud is were salih was (7-73;11-6. Thamud is often appering along with aad (9-70;14-9;22-42;25-38;29-38;40-31;41-13;69-4). In 38-13, thamud is appearing with people of LOT.
it seems like medina is where was thamud and aad and people of lot

Putting all together, i can't decide anything.
i cannot forget however the mention of two main cities from wich Muhammad was not one of the greatness 3-31
i cannot decide even wich of medina or median are ommu el qura.
Similarity of words MEDINA and MEDIAN is too strong for me. They are both from root DEEN.
I cannot proove it but i am quite convinced that they are two specific towns of great DEEN importance.
i am in trouble because i see something important is hidden behind these two words.

i am happy to note that issa never associated to medina or median.

Peace

Well. we can note that Chuaib is the only quranic messenger who dealt with Madian people.

Chuaib seems to be associated with two other strange names People of Tubaa (50-14) and people of Aika.( 26-176;26-177).

Aika is a strange word and in arabic il lead to forest and more precisely to something with many trees. Allegoric meaning of tree can also leads to multiple cultures and civilisations

i googled the beast (web) for word Aika. Few results. But one is interesting.
Aika seems to have a great importance in linguitics if old languages and more precisely between indo-aryan and vedic.
Aika means "one". see https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_superstrate_in_Mitanni

Mittani is a very old kingdom exactly in the place i need (not far from our niniveh and even Tarse from wich Saint Paul, inventor of christianism, emerged ),
http//fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni#/media/FileCarte_du_Mitanni.png

now, there is archeological indication of a city called Tubaa in that region (see https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_el-Marra)

let's resume. Words aika and tubaa are linked together seems to point to a region that has nothing to witha arabian peninsula. they point to very old history in a region where medianites (in a sense of Medes people lived). And one of interesting divinities of this region and that era is the very famous Mithra.

the question is why quran mentionned Aika, Median, Tubaa if we cannot find indications of what are theses cities or people. They should be an indication towards something useful for truthseekers.

Concerning Medina, there is no quranic evidence that Muhammad was there. Quran just says that Medina is a place from where came hypocrites that met Muhammad.

4331 And they said ?If only this Qur?an was sent down to a man of greatness from the two towns!?

We have no better candidates for the two towns than Medina and Median. Quran was revealed to people that havent yet received a book quran said.
So, in ancient times, we can consider that there was the Medina pole (jewish with Lot, Moses, Abraham, thamud, aad and so on) and the Median Pole (nassara, Shuaib, Zoroaster, Salomon, Daoud, persian, vedic).

Moses visited for exemple the two poles. However he was sent as messenger only to the to Medina pole. Allah says in quran that we send a messenger to a people, he choose one from the people. The only exception seems to be Issa/zoroaster, with no father and then quite with no genealogy in a patriarcal vision.

We can consider that the expression "bahrein/two seas" (in the allegoric meaning of sea of words of Allah) in quran (sourate 18 where Moses and his "disciple" traveled) mention this two religious poles, that is the nassara Aryan pole and jewish hebraic pole. Travelling by sea between the two poles is possible.

Muhammad was not from any of these two poles.
1195 It is as if they had never lived there. Away with Midyan as it was away with Thamud.

I have already said why i consider that Hijra of Muhammad occured in the arabian side of persian guld (what we call old bahrein). If we consider that Yemen was the chief pole of hebrew, that north of persia and irak were the chief p?le of nassara, then probaly, by elimination, Muhammad is probably originated from the region of actual Oman.
Why i prefer Oman to the opposite side of petra and nabateans ?
There is many reasons. One of them is that qaramates, from Oman, were the only ones who considered Mecca and Medina as superstition when "Abbasids scholars" fabricated it..
other reason is that arabic language seems to be a south arabic peninsula language.
other reason is quran seems to have been revealed in a region between the two poles.
other reason is that oman and arabian side of persian gulf have never been conquested. It seems that spreading of islam there was an internal affair.

Really, Allah knows best

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Hello,

Let consider that Medina an Madian, the two famous cities of quran, are referencing the two major divisions of religious poles the arabian side and the persian mesopotamiam parts.

I think you are on the right track, noshirk.

It is in fact Arab and Aram that are the religious poles. One side is the descendants of Ishmail (Arab) and the other one is Isaac (Aram). The two camps have often feuded with each other and spread a lot of propaganda which is evident in fabricated religious scriptures. They are still feuding today with the Sunni versus Shia fighting where Sunni represents the Arab ancestry and Shia the Persian clerical origin.

People here on the forum repeat the mistakes that the Aram did when they blackmailed the Arabs in the past by seemingly try to twist history in their favor by bringing glory upon the Arab ancestry and exaggerating it while it was usually often the North Arabian communities that thrived in the past, Palmyra etc and the Aramaic language in the center of attention while South Arabian being confined to the southern parts.

It was good philosophizing that led you to Medi(a)n and I appreciate your work even if you know I do not share everything with you. I had not thought about the relationship between Medinateh and the Median region.

I think people do not reflect upon the influence of the Persian empire in the region even if it fell apart from the inside and was easily overrun by Arabian tribes rallied by rebellious Persian clerics abusing their superstition.

Root of word Medina has nothing to do with the meaning of town.

I have interpreted it as Kingdom when doing a linguistic analysis myself, i.e. an object noun made of Diin, rule, way, course (of action). But, to be very picky, I would say that Diin is derived from Ya-Dal-Ya on a deeper level where nun is an "extension" letter to form another word namely the Diin word. Ya-Dal-Ya is a very primitive derivative and you see it requires forms taken from it.

Ya-Dal-Ya = to touch, aid, do good, be beneficent, show power and superiority, a hand. By his agency/means.
With a willing hand, out of hand, having financial ability.
In acknowledgement of the superior power, in ready money and not in the form of deferred payment, considering it as a favour, on account of help, (payment should be made by the hand of the parties themselves without the intervention of a third party and without reluctance.
baina yadaihi - before him, in his presence hit, between his two hands.
ulill aidi - men of power (lit. gifted with hands)
suqaita fi aidihim (idiomatic expression) they repented, the idea seems to be that they hit their fingers in grief and contrition.
Handy, Might, Power, Superiority, Benefit, Possession, Favour, Generosity. The idea behind those expressions is that the use of the hand is the real source of the superiority and power. Under his authority, upper hand, arm, foreleg of a beast, handle of a tool, wing of a bird.

Alleged Root mdn has no other derivative than medina and it is very strange.

Yes. In my knowledge of Arabic, M as first letter of a word seldom would form a root. Albeit Malek is formed using miim as first letter I would also argue it prefixes another root which is Lam-Alif-Kaf = To send, to send a message, to send anyone towards. It is exactly what you do as malek, i.e. you control people, tell them what to do, order them around.

Concerning Medina, there is no quranic evidence that Muhammad was there. Quran just says that Medina is a place from where came hypocrites that met Muhammad.

Muhammad according to tradition is just an invention by the Persian clerics to have a person of glory for their rallying of people. The real Quran with its writer was probably from North Arabia in the whereabouts where the "modern" Arabic script was developed during the 4th or 5th centuries AD. The wealthy trading communities of Palmyra etc are likely candidates for the alleged trading community of Islamic history if it is even true. The Nabateans were very wealthy and adapted to the harsh environment of the desert at the same time plus they are often ascribed as the developers of the "modern" Arabic script. If Muhammad ever fled to Medina then he fled into Persia, Media (Medinateh - the Kingdom/Empire) which may suit that the tailors of the story were Persian clerics who defended their ancestry but with a twisted tale, perhaps further corrupted by later interpreters.

The clerical interpreters of Quran primarily attacked the early Christian Gnostic communities in Mesopotamia who they felt was growing and blasphemous against God where the focus was that you should act like "Who Is". It can be said to be an answer to Jesus' "blasphemous" teachings (who they did accept but changed his doctrine) where the focus was on the individual's liberation and that was blasphemous association by the clerics, i.e shirk.

That is according to my understanding of what I know right now.

Be safe
Amenuel

[savepandas911]

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[savepandas911]

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[noble]

Peace noshirk

Sorry, but Jesus is Issa ibn Mariam who lived in Palestine, and was of the community of Imran/Khumran with Miriam, Zakariah and John the Baptist / Yahia.

Romans were witness to this.

[huruf]

There is no similarity between the life of 3isa and the life of Jesus.

Jesus was born to a lady married to a carpenter Joseph with no problem whatsoever because of her condition.

3isa was born to a single, unmarried woman, who was accosted and harassed because of her bringing a child out of wedlock.

3isa is always menntionned as son of Maryam in the Qur'an, in the Gospels Jesus is never mentionned as son of Mary.

Jesus was crucified, 3isa was not and ied and lived highly regarded.

Where are the similarities of the man nmed in the Qur'ann as 3isa and the man named in the Gospels as Jesus?

Thsi confusion is a tragedy for muslims, because, while Jesus and the gospels uphold their own true values, the values of 3sa and the Qur'an are distorted to fit the Christian doctrine.

They are two different persons and represent two different teachings, not contradictory, but different.

By following this confusion, muslims do the same as when they pick the ahadith and mix it up with the Qur'an, they distort the Qur'an and make valueless or less valuable.

Better let each thing to be what it is and not confuse it or distort it.

Salaam