Questions to all Quranists, about the Shahada

Joe_Betik

Salaam Mohammed Noh,

I am not sure but I think you were referring to me.
I am sorry that I replied to your post, I thought it was ok with you.

Anyway, for you your understanding for me mine handshake

Salaam and take care,
Bender

Salam Bender,

Ah! You beat me to it! I was taking a break before posting a reply to you. So, no. I was not refering to you. I am sorry if you felt so. Apologies please. And I'l post my reply to you later, insha allah.

Mohammed Noh

Joe_Betik

Salaam Mohammed Noh,

First of all I always liked your posts, I am happy that you are posting again on this forum handshake

RED As far as I know nowhere in The Quran "RUH" (if that is what you meant with spirit) is linked with muhammed "the praised".

Yes. You are correct. There is "nowhere in The Quran "RUH" (if that is what you meant with spirit) is linked with muhammed "the praised"."

I had the same problem too. But this is where learning with God as the teacher helps. And I have none other than to suggest that you ask God about it.

As a side note, there are a lot of things that was never detailed in the Q (Qur-an), but it does not mean that they were not true.

And as far as my understanding reaches, your understanding does not hold because of
3144
Please pay attention to the blue part. Who is the target audience of the blue part? Do you think that is possible if you look at the red part?

I understand your contentions here. Lets see some translations here http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=144

I have no objections when you view that 'muhammad' in the verse is a person.

But I hold a view that 'muhammad' in the verse refers to 'the spirit of God' within us all. To get some ideas on how the messenger communicates with us, I suggest you read my earlier post here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604948.msg319739#msg319739.

We let the messenger die by ignoring IT or ignoring the signs IT has given, and we kill the messenger by opposing/going against IT or opposing/going against the signs IT has given us.

You can't acknowledge that there is a God other than God as per 619
619 Salaam,

Salaam,
Bender

Firstly, I am sorry because I am used to writing God (with capital G) for 'allah', and so I have accidentally missed one 'the'. The phrase should read "I acknowledge that it is not god other than the God ... ."

I hope this clarifies.

But I am curious about your take on verse 4733 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=47&verse=33).

Cheers!
Mohammed Noh

Another addition

My current stand is
a. It is alright if you recite/make the 'shahadah' like the traditionalists PROVIDED you know its meaning and implications.
b. It is alright if you do not recite/make the 'shahadah' like the traditionalists.
c. It is alright if you recite/make a sentence in whatever language (PROVIDED you know its meaning and implications) with the sole idea of acknowledging the existence of God (allah) as the only one true god.
d. It is alright if you do not recite/make an acknowledgment on 'muhammadu alrrasoolu allah', since I am very sure that if we establish and nurture our relationship with God, there will be a time when God will teach us on 'muhammadu alrrasoolu allah'.

noshirk

Salaam All

I will try to enumerate here the quranics violations made by the shahada.

1- It is linguistically a lie. No one can testify that he have seen that Muhammad is messenger. No one have sees that God exists and that he is alone. Chahada, in arabic, meen see with eyes. see Verses 28-43 ;28-44 (Muhammad cannot testify that Moses is messenger) and see 25-71 to 25-73

2-They make people think that entering islam begin with such a formula. Quran clearly stipulates that God is sufficient as witness and don't ask for such a thing (4-79;4-166
48-28

3-They use the formula that God said is the formula hypocrites will use. (63-1 to 63-4).. People who don't understand

4-Association (shirk). According this formula and its statute of first pillar, Worshipping God cannot be dissocated from mentionning another name that name of God.
Brother bender mentionned 6-19. According to adepts of so called first pillar, Muhammad is co-writer, through hersays attributed to him, of religion of God. Hearsays attributed to Muhaamd are mixed (associated) to words of God to create a new religion (see 3-80 and 9-31).
Associateurs cannot mention only name of God (39-45;40-12).
Verses 72-18 and 72-21 shows what Muhammed said to people when they where gathering around him. He clearly spoke about shirk/association

5-Hiding the message by the messenger.
25-30 show that even Muhammad will complain that Quran will be deserted by his people. Sayings attributed to Muhammed are used as teaching for words God.

6-Making difference between messengers.
Clearly , Chahada put Muhammad over the other messengers. That is forbideen for muslims (2-285 ,4-150 ,4-152).

7-Linking Islam to Muhammad
Islam is not a religion brought bu Muhammad. Quran clealy stipulate that Abraham was muslim and that it was Abraham who called Muslim muslims (22-7.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ismael were Muslims (2-132). Also Salomon and friends (27-42), Issa and apostles (3-52 ; 5-111).
It seems also that people can be Muslims before even recognizing Quran as words of God (28-52 et 28-53)

Verse 5-48 stipulates that it is the will of God that there is different communauties.
Whetever philosophers will says, Chahada mislead believers to think that Islam is a new religion brought by Muhammad. Muslims are thinking, for example, that judais is another religion and that sincere Jews are not Muslims to Gods.

It is impossible to enter islam with a formula that Abraham, Moses, Issa and all messengers of God cond not have said.

8-Hiding the true adhesion formula if such a formula exists.
2-130 and 2-131 clearly stipulates what Abraham said when God asked Him to become Muslim.
Similar expressions to ASLAMTOU LI RABBI EL ALAMIN are founded here 2-128;2-133;2-136;3-84 and here (ASLAMTOU WAJHI) (3-20 ; 6-71; 27-44; 40-66;2-133

Peace

mohf

1- It is linguistically a lie.

That depends on how you look at it.

Quran 4914-15
The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not believed; but say , 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

Here it is made clear that the definition of mu'minin (believers) are people who believe and have no doubt about the existance of God

Quran 318
Allah witnesses that there is no deity except Him, and the angels and those of knowledge - maintaining in justice. There is no deity except Him, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

For this verse it is important to check out http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=18

Only then we can see clearly that the shahada is made by

God
wal-malikatu
wa-ul (litterly the first, the ancients) l-il'mi (litterly the knowledgeable) qiman bil-qis'i (= standing in justice)

If I connect the dots here, the believers who doubt not about God and those possessed of knowledge, then it is my personal conclusion that there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying the shahada, as long as you are truthfull and are personally convinced without doubt that there is only one God.

2-They make people think that entering islam begin with such a formula.

Who is "They"? We are talking about what God himself is saying in the Quran, not what traditional muslims are saying.

Somehow you are now trying to continue bashing the traditional muslims, just like wahabis are bashing everyone because of themselves.

3-They use the formula that God said is the formula hypocrites will use. (63-1 to 63-4)..

Same non sense repeated over and over again.

First, you take the verse completely out of context; then you are making a statement about a verse before looking about what other similar verses are saying.

Quran 632
"They have taken their oaths as a cover, so they averted from the way of Allah . Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.&quot

So

Muslims ask the munafiqoon
Munafiqoon testify that they are believers
Now God is waring us someone who testifies may be a liar
If the Muslims believe that the Munafiqoon are genuine believers, then the Munafiqoon can abuse the Muslims by averting them from the way of God

If you have still doubt about the shahada

Quran 28, 211, 214 and many many other verses contain similar utterances of munafiqoon

"And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers."
"When it is said to them "Make not mischief on the earth," they say "We only Want to make peace!""
"And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers.""

Do you want to prohibit muslims from saying "We believe in Allah and the Last Day", "We only Want to make peace!", "We believe" ?

4-Association (shirk).

Non sense.

5-Hiding the message by the messenger.

6-Making difference between messengers.

Are you attacking the shahada in general or trying to say that the second shahada is innovated?

7-Linking Islam to Muhammad

Are you talking about what God is saying in the Quran, or about sunnism?

8-Hiding the true adhesion formula if such a formula exists.

What true adhesion formula?

I hope that God will someday help you and guide you, and show you how brainwashed you have became and how your ego / hate against sunnism made you blind to understanding the Quran. The only thing you can do is try to find every reason and argument to show us that sunnism are wrong.

noshirk

I hope that God will someday help you and guide you, and show you how brainwashed you have became and how your ego / hate against sunnism made you blind to understanding the Quran. The only thing you can do is try to find every reason and argument to show us that sunnism are wrong.

Salaam mohf

in what, this saying "Bukhari is a liar" is rejection of islam ?
in what, this saying "Book of Bukhari is full of hersays inspired by chaytan" is rejection of islam ?

Have you the guaranty that Bukhari will go to heaven ? How can you follow such a guy and mix his words with those of Allah ?
Where, in quran, there is a verse who says something like " for more details and further comprehension, see other books than this" ?

Sunnism is a religion where words of God are mixed with words of Chaytan inspired to Bukhari, Muslim and many priests.
What is wrong with this saying ? Why i am not Muslim if i say that ?
Is contesting Bukhari and priests like contesting God and Muhammad ?

Peace

Bender

Salam Bender,

Ah! You beat me to it! I was taking a break before posting a reply to you. So, no. I was not refering to you. I am sorry if you felt so. Apologies please. And I'l post my reply to you later, insha allah.

Mohammed Noh

Salaam Mohammed Noh,

O thx!!! ) It shows again that speculating is just speculating, I have to avoid it.
I will be back to you later inshaAllah on your other post.

Salaam,
Bender

Bender

Yes. You are correct. There is "nowhere in The Quran "RUH" (if that is what you meant with spirit) is linked with muhammed "the praised"."

I had the same problem too. But this is where learning with God as the teacher helps. And I have none other than to suggest that you ask God about it.

As a side note, there are a lot of things that was never detailed in the Q (Qur-an), but it does not mean that they were not true.

Salaam brother,

At this moment I have to disagree as Allah did not show me how Ruh and Muhammed are connected.
But I have a question if you don't mind. Why is it called Muhammed? If I try to follow your logic then it looks more logical to me to call it Mukarram (or soemthng like that) as per 1762, 1770, etc. .

I have no objections when you view that 'muhammad' in the verse is a person.

But I hold a view that 'muhammad' in the verse refers to 'the spirit of God' within us all. To get some ideas on how the messenger communicates with us, I suggest you read my earlier post here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604948.msg319739#msg319739.

We let the messenger die by ignoring IT or ignoring the signs IT has given, and we kill the messenger by opposing/going against IT or opposing/going against the signs IT has given us.

Red I read your post there, I agree with a lot and also disagree with some points.
Anyway I found it interesting that you also mention Mohammed the person who received The Quran.
So you believe that there are 2 kinds of Mohammed?
Also interesting that you mentioned Mohammed (the human) on a place where his name is not mentioned (chapter 96).

Firstly, I am sorry because I am used to writing God (with capital G) for 'allah', and so I have accidentally missed one 'the'. The phrase should read "I acknowledge that it is not god other than the God ... ."

I hope this clarifies.

nope
I mean yes, I agree that one has to be with capital and the others not, but I don't see how that changes anything. Looks to me still an impossible thing to take sahada on.

But I am curious about your take on verse 4733 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=47&verse=33).

Cheers!
Mohammed Noh

You mean "the rasul" part?

Salaam,
Bender

tlihawa

Peace Mohf,

Furthermore, can you please tell explain me, what lie this ?question? contains
Am I a liar when I recite the Quran and include 631 as a Quranic verse? If so, is this verse abrogated? Please explain. Don't come with stories from Sunni's or why you think there is no shahada. Explain why someone is a liar if he JUST recited the statement, because the question said just that Am I a munafiq if I said it?

I don't think so. But I think you want to consider this

The Munafiquun

Who are they?

9101 And from among the Arabs around you are hypocrites, and from among the people of the city, they persist in hypocrisy. You do not know them, but We know them. We will punish them twice, then they will be returned to a great punishment.

What they have done?

481 And they say "Obedience" but when they come out from being with you a group of them prepares for other than what you have said, and God records what they planned. So turn away from them and put your trust in God. God is enough for your trust.

What they had planned, which was written by God?

631 When the hypocrites come to you they say "We bear witness that you are the messenger of God." And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.

God knows that Muhammad is His Messenger, NOT the human. This is the thing that have been taught in Quran.

619 Say "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Qur'an that I may warn you with it and whoever it reaches, that you are bearing witness that with God are other gods!" Say "I do not bear witness!" Say "He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you have set up!"

Nobody which uphold the God's word will testify about Muhammad, messenger of the God. Only God could do that.

This is the only way for the prophet to recognize the munafiqun around him. God didn't mention their name one by one, but provide a guidance to distinguish them.

So to me, that's the legacy of Munafiquun, and I wouldn't do that.

Peace

Yosemite

Salaam Brothers and sisters welcome

Before starting, please let me make it VERY CLEARLY that I am NOT a "hadither" (as some Quranists here call all the other 1.5 billion muslims). I absolutely do NOT believe that ahadiths are neccesary for salvation. Please do not post stuff as "Dude the Quran is fully detailed, explains everything, is very clear, the hadiths are written hundreds of years after our Prophet died " etc., because that is completely fftopic. I am trying to discuss the "extravagent" things "some" Quranists say.

I have been examining the religion of following the Quran without any external references, explanations, interpretations or what ever, and I like the general idea. How ever, I am oftenly comming across very stupid statements made by Quranists, which, are usually made because of their hatred towards all the other muslims.

So I have a few questions. I Would appreciate it if people could answer them.

Do I commit shirk if I say "Muhammad Rasool Allah" (= Muhammad is the messenger of God) ?

A) Yes.
B) No but you must avoid saying it.
C) No.

Do I commit shirk if I say "Ashado inna Muhammad Rasool Allah" (= I witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God) ?

A) Yes.
B) No but you must avoid saying it.
C) No.

Do I commit shirk if I say during my salat "Ashado an La illaha illallah, wahdahu la sharikala, wa ashadu inna Muhammad Rasool Allah" (= I witness that there is no deity other than God, He is alone with no partners, and I witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God) ?

A) Yes.
B) No but you must avoid saying it.
C) No.

Am I a munafiq if I say the same thing as verse 631 is talking about "nashhadu innaka larasulu l-lahi" (= We witness that you are (indeed) the Messenger of God) ?

A) Yes.
B) No but you must avoid saying it.
C) No.

Please choose the most fitting option

A) Pronouncing the second Shahada* is obligatory
B) Pronouncing the second Shahada* is prohibited
C) Pronouncing the second Shahada* is neither obligatory nor prohibited

= "Ashado inna Muhammad Rasool Allah" (= I witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God)

After some people have answered these questions, I will post Quranic references which answer these questions.

I can never repeat it enough I am NOT a hadither. I am someone who is studying the "religion" of following the Quran Alone for a few years. I am not intending to do any hatred or something like that.

May God guide us all,

Peace!

c
c
c
c
c

doesn't the quran say that you can't utter the name of another other than god's name during prayers?

isn't that what the issue is with the sentences you posted in your OP? that sunnis and others utter the name of another person in their prayers? because i recall it is the problem, not the sentence itself, when and where it is used

Timotheus

Peace

Why should the religion of God be all about Muhammad?
A. It shouldn't.

In response to all your questions about the shahada with Muhammad in it the problem really is that good tells us what the correct shahada is in the Quran. That the shahada of God, the angels and those with knowledge is ' there is no God but him'

So Muhammad is out of the question.

God gives us examples in the Quran. 'He points out the various ways including the wrong ones'

One is God's shahada mentioning him alone and the other is the shahada of hypocrites mentioning Muhammad. I know what I will choose...