Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165
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Peace Noon,
it is important to stay focused one verse and point at a time not be all over the place.
You have to let the Quranic verses explain the Quran. That means you have to cross reference. Thats how you will be able to comprehend the Quran. The audience of the Quran was the Arabs considering the facts that the scenerio, the people and even their speech were all of South Arabian.
In context of chapter 63 (11 verses) it is about hypocrites and likewise we know about different scripts.
Tell me something that i dont know! Did i not explain?
http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image001.jpg
631 when came you the hypocrites said they of we witness surely you surely messenger the god and the god knows surely you surely messenger his and the god he witness surely the hypocrites surely lying 632 have taken they of aymnahum/commitments theirs cover so to hinder about way the god surely they evil what be they of working 633 such since they believe they of furthermore disregard they of so sealed upon hearts theirs so they not understanding 634 and when sees thou them impressed you ajsmuhum/corporeal theirs and if speak they of hear/listen to speech theirs ka-annahum/like they khushubun/wood beams musannadatun/propped up calculating/thinking each shout against them themselves the enemy so beware them fight/perish them the god surely how deluding 635 and when said to them come ye of shall ask forgiveness for you messenger the god turn they of heads theirs and see thou them away turning and they arrogant being 636 equally on them whether ask forgiveness thou for them or not thou ask forgiveness for them never forgives the god for them surely the god not guides the folk the disobedient 637 themselves the ones saying not spend they upon from near/with messenger the god until dispersed they and to god treasuries the heavens and the earth and however the hypocrites not understanding 638 saying while return we to the town surely go out the noble from it the humble and to god the pride and for messenger his and to the believers and however the hypocrites not knowing 639 O you the ones believe ye of not distract you wealth yours and not offspring yours about remembrance the god and who does such so surely those are the losing 6310 and spends ye of from what provided we you from before that comes one of you the death so says lord why not delay thou me to term near so I give charity and I be from the righteous 6311 and never delayed the god soul of when came term its and the god aware in what thou working
It is not only their speech rather them being like wooden manikins i.e. all show no action.
5420 plucked the humankind ka-annahum/like they trunks date-palms uprooted
613 greatly hateful near/with the god that thou say ye of what not thou doing 614 surely the god loves the ones fighting in way his row of ka-annahum/like they structure joined firmly
7450 ka-annahum/like they donkeys/zebras frightened
This is the hadithers way of explaining the Quran. What does all those verses have to do with 6304? Cant you see, the Quran is showing us things that those clerics trying to cover up!
Peace
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Tell me something that i dont know! Did i not explain?
Peace Hizbullah,
No, you did not explain and took a verse out of context implied that the phrase ka-annahum khushubun musannadatun that it refers to running into some group of people speaking a non-existent Arabic language and confused it with an ancient script.
This is the hadithers way of explaining the Quran. What does all those verses have to do with 6304? Cant you see, the Quran is showing us things that those clerics trying to cover up!
Never mentioned hadith showed 634 in full context of whole chapter that it is about hypocrites in general and showed for benefit of others examples for ka-annahum/like they; not some non-existed Arabic musnad language-speaking group of people as you claimed.
Let's not confuse ancient scripts with languages e.g. Amarna letters written in ancient Akkadian script which was standard for communication at the time for peoples who spoke different languages as English script/fonts most use today like to write these posts.
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And when, on their visiting you saw them, their apparent worldly position/wealth and status seemed to you exotic/astounding,
And if they speak, you should carefully listen for their statement -
To find that it is loose and week/they are like cankered, empty from within wood pieces made to stand with support of some structure.
They apprehend/think that every sound blast will effect them.
They are the enemy, therefore, you remain cautious of them
Allah the Exalted has condemned them. How are they deluded by conjectural falsificationhttp//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/063.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20surat%2063/2a.gif
Passive participle Indefinite; singular; feminine; nominative; --second noun of adjectival phrase.
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No, you did not explain and took a verse out of context implied that the phrase ka-annahum khushubun musannadatun that it refers to running into some group of people speaking a non-existent Arabic language and confused it with an ancient script. Never mentioned hadith showed 634 in full context of whole chapter that it is about hypocrites in general and showed for benefit of others examples for ka-annahum/like they; not some non-existed Arabic musnad language-speaking group of people as you claimed.
Peace Noon...
I m not going to force you to believe. It shows clearly you have no interest in reading what i have written. Btw, its you who read the Quran out of context by following those moronic sectarian clergy and i dont blame you for not comprehending this garbage language. If this Arabic version Quran were in Musnad, it will be easier to comprehend!
6304 explicitly shows who the hypocrites were, the people, their speech and their writings.
And when you see them, YOU WONDER THEIR PERSONALITY AND WHEN THEY SPEAK, YOU LISTEN TO THEIR SPEECH. Indeed they were MUSNAD WOOD. They reckon all vociferate is on them...
compare with these ridiculous sectarian translation
634 and when sees thou them impressed you ajsmuhum/corporeal theirs and if speak they of hear/listen to speech theirs ka-annahum/like they khushubun/wood beams musannadatun/propped up calculating/thinking each shout against them themselves the enemy so beware them fight/perish them the god surely how deluding
Why on earth should those munafiqs impressed the Prophet? Than the Prophet listen to their speech and their speech is like wood and propped up rotfl
peace
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And when, on their visiting you saw them, their apparent worldly position/wealth and status seemed to you exotic/astounding,
And if they speak, you should carefully listen for their statement -
To find that it is loose and week/they are like cankered, empty from within wood pieces made to stand with support of some structure.
They apprehend/think that every sound blast will effect them.
They are the enemy, therefore, you remain cautious of them
Allah the Exalted has condemned them. How are they deluded by conjectural falsificationhttp//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/063.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20surat%2063/2a.gif
Passive participle Indefinite; singular; feminine; nominative; --second noun of adjectival phrase.
Too much interpolation
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6304 explicitly shows who the hypocrites were, the people, their speech and their writings.
And when you see them, YOU WONDER THEIR PERSONALITY AND WHEN THEY SPEAK, YOU LISTEN TO THEIR SPEECH. Indeed they were MUSNAD WOOD. They reckon all vociferate is on them...
Peace Hizbullah,
Hypocrites appear 32 times in Qur'an and can be anyone. It does not say they "were" rather ka-annahum "they are like" which is a comparison hence your translation makes no sense in or out of context.
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Peace Hizbullah,
Hypocrites appear 32 times in Qur'an and can be anyone. It does not say they "were" rather ka-annahum "they are like" which is a comparison hence your translation makes no sense in or out of context.
Look whos talking......The scenerio of the Quran is Arabia. Hypocrites appear 32 times in Qur'an refer to the hypocrites among the Arabs. ka-annahum is in perfect tense.
it is not for you to decide what language the Quran was written or when it was sent down or how old it was! Let the Quran speak for itself. Its all in the Quran. You need to do through research and not be a blind follower!
You can carry on with your ridiculous translation which is out of context and makes no sense at all.
Conclusion
THE OLDEST ORIGINAL ARABIC QURAN WAS WRITTEN IN SOUTH ARABIAN MUSNAD----PERIOD
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Conclusion
THE OLDEST ORIGINAL ARABIC QURAN WAS WRITTEN IN SOUTH ARABIAN MUSNAD----PERIOD
Peace Hizbullah -- we are discussing/quoting this one. Perhaps when you find even a single verse in Musnad script post it.
http//oi68.tinypic.com/2uitz4k.jpg
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I have already done that
No, you did not provide a verse in Qur'an in Musnad script.
For benefit of others below is an example of Musnad script.http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/figs-stones/x-large/color_xl_jpeg/fig25.jpg
Transliteration
n ya a'in th t / k ya l / w m q m / sh ya m ha m w
gh wa n ha m w / b n / a a'in r b n / w b z t
t a t b / r ya m m / s a'in d / w ha w f ya n
r ya m m / r dh w / w h sd ya / m r a ha mTranscription
Nai Asath/ Khail/ w maqam/ shai mahamo/
Ghawnham/bin/ A'araban/ w bazat/
Ta'atab/remom/sad/w hawfain
Remom/ Rado/ wa hasiya/ mrahamTranslation
With the power of Naiqthat and his high positionGhawnaham from the Arabian tribe of
Dhat Ta'atab - Raimam Sa'ad
Fulfilled and pleased with the will
of their Lord and his presence.
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No, you did not provide a verse in Qur'an in Musnad script.
For benefit of others below is an example of Musnad script.Quran 6304 it the proof. But offcourse, sectarian would always refute. Fyi what u show was old musnad. By the 3rd Century, the Musnad script evolved into cursive Musnad.
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QURAN 6304
Sorry, my brother, but i see not how msndh in 63411 underpins your conclusion !
In my book, when the post-qurnic diacritization are taken out the textus receptus, you get a North-Arabian, Nabatean/Aramean lingua ? starting with the very first qurnic prep. phrase b-sm (ـ.
SLM
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Salam my brother hicham9...
In my book, when the post-qurnic diacritization are taken out the textus receptus, you get a North-Arabian, Nabatean/Aramean lingua ? starting with the very first qurnic prep. phrase b-sm (ـ.
U r a knowledgeable and true Quranist. Please read below...
Peace Brother Wakas
Thank you for your reply
Below are the evidences....
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607488.0
First off, Nabatean was never an Arabic language. In fact even up till today, the people of the Levant never consider themselves as Arabs. There are thousands of stele found in the Levant, from Syria to down south Jordan, with Nabatean inscription compare to Syriac which actually derives from Nabatean and not the other way round. Parthian, Middle Persian, Khawarimian, Soghdian - all contains Huzwaresh, which means words that were Nabatean in origin. Anyone within that area would be able to comprehend these languages.
The Arabic of the Quran was tailored by the Arabs of AlHira by combining these two languages, Musnad and Nabatean, into one which is known today as Arabic using its first script, Jazm. So that is why you can find many so called Syriac words which is actually Nabatean in the Quran!
These occurred during the Arabization of the Middle East by the Arabs under Queen Maviya in the late 4th century / early 5th Century. Queen Maviya was the predecessor of Bani Ummayah or better known as Bani Umm Maviya - Children of Mother Maviya.
Salam
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Peace -- another early text was kind of shorthand and every 10 verses scribe kept checksum.
Birmingham Quran manuscript radiocarbon dated 568 - 645 CE ~95% probability.
http//www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021
No ending verse markings after 201 ta ha
202 not descended we of upon you the Qur?an that thou agonizehttp//oi64.tinypic.com/jb4u1g.jpg
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Peace Noon
http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image008.gif
According to Professor Peter Stein - University of Jena, Germany, who is the world expert on ASA; this script was made sometime in the end of 3rd Century CE and the correct rendering of the ancient text is that it is a legal document which states that a certain amount (the actual number has been left open) of Sorghum has been granted by A MAN TO FOUR WOMEN.
Quranic verse 0403 - 04 sound VERY SIMILAR. Now, if this is the case, how come in the 3rd Century, such Quranic law was initiated in South Arabia?
What say you?
peace
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Peace Noon
According to Professor Peter Stein - University of Jena, Germany, who is the world expert on ASA; this script was made sometime in the end of 3rd Century CE and the correct rendering of the ancient text is that it is a legal document which states that a certain amount (the actual number has been left open) of Sorghum has been granted by A MAN TO FOUR WOMEN.
Quranic verse 0403 - 04 sound VERY SIMILAR. Now, if this is the case, how come in the 3rd Century, such Quranic law was initiated in South Arabia?
What say you?
peace
Peace Hizbullah -- not sure why man leaves something to four women has to do with Qur'an/context of chapter four?
43 and if fear you that not thou deal justly ye of in/concerning the bereaved so sponsor marriage ye of what suitable for you from the womenfolk twosome and three and quadruple so if fear you that not thou equivalence ye of so one (f/s) or what hold right hands (possessions i.e. wealth what one can afford) yours such lowest that not thou oppress ye of 44 and give ye of the womenfolk handouts theirs graciously so if remit for you about thing from it soul of (i.e. on their own) so consume it satisfaction ease 45 and not give the foolish wealth yours the one made the god for you stand/support of and provide ye them therein and clothe ye them and speak ye of to them speech of fair manner of 46 and test ye of the bereaved until when attained they of the marriage so if perceive you from them right way of/rational so deliver ye of toward them wealth theirs and not thou eat/consume ye it wastefully and hastily of lest/that grow up they of and who be ample of so should refrain and who be poor of so let eat/consume in the fair manner so when deliver you toward them wealth theirs so witnesses ye of on/over them and sufficient in/by the god reckon-er of 47 to the menfolk share from what left the parents and the nearer/relatives being and for the womenfolk share from what left the parents and the nearer/relatives being of what small from it or large share of obligatory of 48 and when comes the division possessors the relative and the bereaved and the needy so provide ye them from it and speak ye of to them speech of fair manner of 49 and let fear the ones in case left they of from behind them progeny weak fear they of over them so let fear they of the god and let speak they of speech of appropriate of 410 surely the ones are eating/consuming wealth the bereaved injustice of only are eating/consuming in interior of body theirs fire of and shall burning blaze of 411 instructs you the god in/concerning offspring yours ...
inheritance summary http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604035.msg385440#msg385440
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Peace Noon,
So base on Professor Peter Stein interpretation, the text seems to show alms / charity towards the women. It also seems to be very similar to the Quran 0403....If suppose the word NIKAH is not part of Q0403 - ? the Quranic verse sound like??
And if you fear that you cannot distribute in the orphans, what seems suitable you all of the women, two or three or four, so that you fear you cannot be just, then one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline.
If you read further verse 0404, there is no word "dowry" but instead it mentions "charity".
Q0404 - And give the women their alms / charity graciously. But if they give up willingly to you anything of it, then take it in satisfaction and ease.
Now, if this is the case, 0403 ? 0404, did not render the marriage of orphans among the women but instead to give charity to the women, affordable to the donor, 2, 3 or 4 women, but if he / she cannot afford than 1 is enough.
The reason why i believe the word "NIKAH" was indoctrinated is that if someone fear because he could not provide or distribute some things than that means he is lack of financial or other means of support. Than how can he marries 2 or 3 or 4 women? This will put more burden on him considering if he already has a wife to support.
Furthermore, the 1st sentence of this Chapter starting with the word "Oh Mankind" referring to both men and women who are / were the audience.
I believe the verses 0403-04 have something to do with charity. If you read further verses 05 and 06, it tells us to take care of the orphans / singles property until their marriageable age. The ancient cursive Musnad text does provide prove of Quranic Law used, pertaining to distribution of charity to 4 single women in the 3rd / 4th Century CE.
Note Whatever i have written is base only on the results of my own research.