How can anyone stop pagans from approaching the sacred Mosque?
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peace Nun,
I'm not sure what you mean by saying its a "statement/prophecy" - as that would imply it is true or come true - thus, are you saying zero mushrikeen came near al masjid al haram (which you translate as mosque) from that point on, or just then, or when?
And can you explain why poverty is an issue associated with this statement? As I said is trading only going on inside the mosque / is there an admission fee to go near it? or what?
"the inviolable time of SJD" -- if so, how, where, and whom?
In the article, I propose it is referring to the specific mushrikeen in context, i.e. those who violated the treaty.
al hajj /the commemoration, is an event, taking place within the inviolable months, in a designated location. In this location various regulations are in place, run by the community. At this point in time, the believers had triumphed (i.e. the majority) thus going forward they were in charge of this event and the regulation of it. If they make a treaty with whoever, they can determine who attends, trades etc.
To be fair, this understanding requires understanding to some extent the chronology in Quran (especially the latter revealed chapters, e.g. 9), and how at the end the believers seemed to be forming into a confederation.I am of the view the believers used this event to converge upon one location, leading to triumph. This can be understood in the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlInterestingly, this has some basis in the traditions and ties in quite nicely with some independent academic findings, e.g. Fred Donner's work.
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I think it is the OP's duty that if he is truly trying to understand a topic in the Quran he should present all the relevant topics and ayaats related. It is very dishonest and unscholarly to present only one ayaat pertaining a topic and expect to have some productive conversation from it. It is naive and shows lack of understanding of Quran.
He should have presented all ayaats related to the word sacred in context of the House/Sanctuary/Mosque. Instead he flashes one ayaat and pretends as if he is confused. Do believers read one ayaat and follow the dini or do they read the entire Quran to seek guidance from their Lord? confusedNominal
(1) Adjective
(214414) l-armi Al-Haraam
(2149 l-armi Al-Haraam
(2150 l-armi Al-Haraam
(219116) l-armi Al-Haraam
(21942) l-armu sacred
(21944) l-armi sacred
(219666) l-armi Al-Haraam
(219817) l-armi Sacred
(22174) l-armi sacred
(22171 l-armi Al-Haraam
(5210) l-arma the sacred
(521 l-arma the Sacred
(5235) l-armi Al-Haraam
(5975) l-arma the Sacred
(5979) l-arma sacred
(954) l-urumu the sacred months
(9361 urumun (are) sacred
(2) Noun
(511 urumun (are in) Ihram
(595 urumun (are in) Ihram
(59615) uruman (are in) Ihram
(83410) l-armi Al-Haraam
(9714) l-armi Al-Haraam
(9196) l-armi (of) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(92810) l-arma Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(105911) arman unlawful
(1611610) armun (is) forbidden
(171 l-armi Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(21951) waarmun And (there is) prohibition
(22259) l-armi and Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(285712) araman a sanctuary
(29675) araman a Sanctuary
(48257) l-armi Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(48279) l-arma Al-Masjid Al-HaraamAn in-depth analysis of all these related ayaats will be more productive than the approach taken now.
It will clarify the situation occurring in the city Mekka and prevention of the believers by the polytheists from entering the Sacred Mosque. As well as the commands concerning no violating the sacred months and restraining hands from each other within Mekkah.
I do not fully understand he entire scenario at this point. But I am convinced if we take this approach together and analyze these ayaats and the ayaats around we will be closer to a pure understanding. If we argue about one ayaat we will get nowhere.
OP do your due diligence and study these and present these accordingly then perhaps you won't be so confused anymoreIt says
so not yaqrab/approach/near they al-masjid al haram after Aam their year this....... and if you (believers) fear povertyimperfect
I'm surprised no-one brought up the issue of fearing poverty due not allowing them near al masjid al haram - is it because it cant be explained by conventional understandings so this problem is ignored? Was trading only going on inside the so-called Sacred Mosque? Was there an admission fee to go near it?
I do not understand what difference the issue of trading makes in our understanding of this at. Could you perhaps be more elaborate, so that we may learn that which you know.
To me it is a known fact that the Sacred Mosque/ Sanctuary was a boisterous trading center probably established on well known trade routes, as well as a haven.2857
Waqaloo in nattabiAAi alhuda maAAaka nutakhattaf min ardina awa lam numakkin lahum haraman aminan yujba ilayhi thamaratu kulli shay-in rizqan min ladunna walakinna aktharahum la yaAAlamoona
And they say, "If we follow the guidance with you, we would be swept from our land." Have not We established for them a sanctuary secure, are brought to it fruits (of) all things, a provision from Us? But most of them (do) not know.2967
Awa lam yaraw anna jaAAalna haraman aminan wayutakhattafu alnnasu min hawlihim afabialbatili yu/minoona wabiniAAmati Allahi yakfuroona
Do not they see that We have made a Sanctuary secure while are being taken away the people around them? Then do in the they believe and in (the) Favor (of) Allah they disbelieve?2225 Inna allatheena kafaroo wayasuddoona AAan sabeeli Allahi waalmasjidi alharami allathee jaAAalnahu lilnnasi sawaan alAAakifu feehi waalbadi waman yurid feehi bi-ilhadin bithulmin nuthiqhu min AAathabin aleemin
Indeed, those who disbelieved and hinder from (the) way (of) Allah and Al-Masjid Al-Haraam, which We made it for the mankind, equal, (are) the resident therein and the visitor; and whoever intends therein of deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him of a punishment painful.
2226 Wa-ith bawwa/na li-ibraheema makana albayti an la tushrik bee shay-an watahhir baytiya liltta-ifeena waalqa-imeena waalrrukkaAAi alssujoodi
And when We assigned to Ibrahim (the) site (of) the House, "That (do) not associate with Me anything and purify My House for those who circumambulate and those who stand and those who bow, (and) those who prostrate.
1437 Rabbana innee askantu min thurriyyatee biwadin ghayri thee zarAAin AAinda baytika almuharrami rabbana liyuqeemoo alssalata faijAAal af-idatan mina alnnasi tahwee ilayhim waorzuqhum mina alththamarati laAAallahum yashkuroona
Our Lord! Indeed, I have settled (some) of my offsprings in a valley not with cultivation near Your Sacred House, our Lord! That they may establish the prayers. So make hearts of the men incline towards them, and provide them with the fruits so that they may be grateful.
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peace HPT,
I dont think the author of a thread requires to list all relevant verses of that subject, or word. It would be better of course, but not a requirement.
I do not understand what difference the issue of trading makes in our understanding of this at. Could you perhaps be more elaborate, so that we may learn that which you know.
It's simple. The verse is associating the statement of mushrikeen not approaching al masjid al haram (what you call 'sacred mosque' and the believers fearing poverty. All I'm asking for is an explanation as to why that might be - you got one?
Just give me a practical example, e.g.
Mushrikeen Bob wants to trade with people (including believers) and make some money BUT he is apparently not allowed near this so-called 'sacred mosque'. No big deal he thinks because he doesn't need to be near it to trade - but then he asks how near is near? Can he trade standing 100m away? 200m?
My point is real real simple - for those who take it as 'sacred mosque' they are forced into coming up with made-up arbitrary explanations, e.g. it means they cant trade anywhere in the city where the mosque is in, that's what the verse means etc etc. Just read the traditional understandings, they are filled with variance.
If an arbitrary solution is your view, fine. Personally, I prefer to see if there is a self-contained explanation in Quran.
To me it is a known fact that the Sacred Mosque/ Sanctuary was a boisterous trading center probably established on well known trade routes, as well as a haven.
"Fact" as in never corroborated by any non-Islamic source? It's a claim, nothing more. The verses you cite, are built on your assumption it is referring to a city called Mecca etc.
Once again, I recommend readers to read and ponder over the questions asked in http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
As with most of my works, I create a thread for them wherein they can be discussed
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467Don't get me wrong now, I'm not saying my understanding is perfect, all I'm saying is (and this should be obvious from the article) that my understanding seems to have the least problems, and much to my surprise, helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).
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It's simple. The verse is associating the statement of mushrikeen not approaching al masjid al haram (what you call 'sacred mosque' and the believers fearing poverty. All I'm asking for is an explanation as to why that might be - you got one?
Just give me a practical example, e.g.
Mushrikeen Bob wants to trade with people (including believers) and make some money BUT he is apparently not allowed near this so-called 'sacred mosque'. No big deal he thinks because he doesn't need to be near it to trade - but then he asks how near is near? Can he trade standing 100m away? 200m?
My point is real real simple - for those who take it as 'sacred mosque' they are forced into coming up with made-up arbitrary explanations, e.g. it means they cant trade anywhere in the city where the mosque is in, that's what the verse means etc etc. Just read the traditional understandings, they are filled with variance.
If an arbitrary solution is your view, fine. Personally, I prefer to see if there is a self-contained explanation in Quran.
You all need to re-read chapter 9 this is ridiculous. It is not all the polytheists, because obviously there were some they had a pledge with, it was the ones that kept remitting and abusing them for whom there was a way made against them. As far as trade you are over focusing on the most minor detail. Trade is not the issue here, it is the care of the masjid which was to be taken from the violent pledge-breaking polytheists and given to the believers. You are going off a tangent a bit. And quite truthfully I do not see the issue you are trying to raise. Perhaps if you read the ayaats around you will all see more clearly s well.
ChaPter 9
91 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.
92 ?Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.?
93 And a proclamation from God and His messenger to the people, on the day of the greater Pilgrimage ?That God and His messenger are innocent from the polytheists.? If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.
94 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous.
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
96 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.
97 How can the polytheists have a pledge with God and with His messenger? Except for those with whom you made a pledge near the Restricted Temple, as long as they are upright with you, then you are upright with them. God loves the righteous.
98 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and the majority of them are wicked.
99 They purchased with the revelations of God a cheap price, so they repel others from His path. Evil indeed is what they used to do.
910 They do not respect those who are believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors.
911 If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.
912 And if they break their oaths after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your system; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.
913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.
914 Fight them; perhaps God will punish them by your hands and humiliate them and grant you victory over them and heal the chests of the believing people.
915 And to remove the anger from their hearts; God pardons whom he pleases. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
916 Or did you think that you would be left alone? God will come to distinguish those of you who strived and did not take other than God and His messenger and the believers as helpers. God is Expert in what you do.
917 It was not for the polytheists to maintain the temples of God while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
918 Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he upholds the contact prayer, and he contributes towards purification, and is only concerned by God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.
919 Have you made the watering of the pilgrim and the maintenance of the Restricted Temple the same as one who believes in God and the Last Day and he strives in the cause of God? They are not the same with God. And God does not guide the wicked people.
920 Those who believed and emigrated and strived in the cause of God with their money and their lives are in a greater degree with God. These are the winners.
921 Their Lord gives them good news of a mercy from Him, and acceptance, and gardens that are for them in which there is permanent bliss.
922 They will abide in it eternally. With God there is a great reward.
923 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as allies if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.
924 Say ?If your fathers, and your sons, and your brothers, and your wives, and your kin, and money which you have gathered, and a trade which you would be concerned over its decline, and homes which you find pleasing; if these are dearer to you than God and His messenger and striving in His cause, then wait until God brings His decision. And God does not guide the wicked people.?
925 God has granted you victory in many battlefields. And on the day of Hunayn when you were pleased with your great numbers but it did not help you at all, and the land became tight around you for what it held, then you turned to flee.
926 Then God sent down His tranquility upon His messenger and the believers, and He sent down soldiers which you did not see, and He punished those who rejected. Such is the recompense of the rejecters.
927 Then God will accept the repentance of whom He pleases after that. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
928 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this calendar year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
929 Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, nor do they forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, nor do they uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the Book; until they pay the reparation, willingly or unwillingly, and they are subdued.
930 The Jews said ?Ezra is the son of God,? and the Nazarenes said ?The Messiah is the son of God.? Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!
931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.
932 They want to extinguish the light of God with their mouths, but God refuses such and lets His light continue, even if the rejecters hate it.
933 He is the One who has sent His messenger with the guidance and the system of truth, so that it will expose all other systems, even if the polytheists hate it.
934 O you who believe, many of the Priests and Monks consume the money of the people in falsehood, and they repel from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.
935 On the Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell, and their foreheads and sides and backs will be branded with it ?This is what you have hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you have hoarded!?
936 The count of the months with God is twelve months in the book of God the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.
937 From the use of intercalary month comes an addition to rejection; that those who have rejected are misguided by it. They make it lawful one calendar year, and forbid it one calendar year, so as to circumvent the count of what God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God has made forbidden. Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.
938 O you who believe, what is wrong with you when you are told ?Mobilize in the cause of God,? you become heavy on the earth. Have you become content with this worldly life over the Hereafter? The enjoyment of this worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing.
939 If you do not mobilize, then He will punish you with a painful retribution, and He will replace you with another people, and you do not bother Him in the least. God is capable of all things.
940 If you do not help him, then God has helped him. When those who rejected expelled him, he was one of only two, and when they were in the cave, he said to his friend ?Do not grieve, for God is with us.? So God sent down His tranquility over him and He supported him with soldiers that you did not see, and He made the word of those who rejected be the lowest, and the word of God be the highest. God is Noble, Wise.
941 Mobilize in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if only you knew.
942 If it were a near gain, or an easy journey, they would have followed you; but the distance was too much for them. And they will swear by God ?If we could have, we would have gone with you.? They destroy themselves, and God knows they are liars."Fact" as in never corroborated by any non-Islamic source? It's a claim, nothing more. The verses you cite, are built on your assumption it is referring to a city called Mecca etc.
Don't get me wrong now, I'm not saying my understanding is perfect, all I'm saying is (and this should be obvious from the article) that my understanding seems to have the least problems, and much to my surprise, helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).
I don't think there is anything difficult in the Book. I think certain people invent difficulties for themselves because of their left-field interpretations. I see a trend of individuals on this forum who try to define a term in a universal fashion so it can fit in every context it is used. That is not an appropriate approach.
That is why I think you arrive at a wrong conclusion in "your work". A specific term may convey different meaning depending on context used. You cannot expect your definition to fit in every occurrence in the Quran, I just do not think that is linguistically possible. Words are not solid like most of you make them out to be but they flow like liquid.
That is why The Book tests the hearts of mankind it is this fluidity and clarity that allows one to see the reflection of what is in his heart. Again words can vary in meaning depending on how they are used. It does not mean that for the most obvious context you have to discard the most obvious meaning simply because it does not fit "your universal definition" = the inviolable time of SJD.It is your assumption as well for masjid to be translated as "time of SJD" instead of "place". Is this not arbitrary?
It also goes without saying that if you are in a "time" of SJD then you are in a place of SJD. Wherever and whenever you are in SJD that is both time and place so for you to decide that masjid al haram conveys time is contrary to logic.
Someone can be in a place of SJD and not be in necessarily at a time of SJD. But one cannot be in a time of SJD without being in a place of SJD. Wherever you SJD that is your place of SJD.
This simple logic supports both place and time, but place consistently over time for the interpretation of masjid, hence masjid al haram as well.
You say the verses I cited are based on an assumption.
Please show me which parts of the ayaats I cited are based on an assumption.Regardless of what you think this locality is called Mekkah, Bakkah or whether these names are of importance at all.....
.....Can you deny that any of the ayaats I have cited are not referring to a physical location?
What is this sanctuary established for the mankind?It is you refusal to comprehend the fluidity of words that has sealed your ability to perceive that perhaps Masjid al haram, araman aminan and bayt almuharram are the same thing.
Another thing is that when you take the Book and cite it in pieces as we are doing it becomes difficult to see the whole picture.
I am convinced if we put all the ayaats related into context from the term Mekkah, to sacred months, masjid al haram, Ibrahim erecting the House, and etcetera we will see that we are talking about a locality not a time.
The sacred months are called the sacred months and the inviolable Masjid is just that.
Look at the concordance of masjid used in the Quran.
I am not talking about SJD but MASJID. Besides MASJID AL HARAM the use of masjid conveys a place of worship.
The masjid of Allah. In fact, there may be far more difficulties with your approach. Masjid here definitely implies place of SJD to Allah as in some of the following which include two occurrences in the same surah being discussed 917, 918 and the next occurrence is 928.
But according to you no it conveys time??
Know as well that this is your assumption.Noun
(21145) masjida (the) masajid
(214413) l-masjidi (of) Al-Masjid
(21497) l-masjidi (of) Al-Masjid
(21507) l-masjidi (of) Al-Masjid
(218753) l-masjidi the masajid
(219115) l-masjidi Al-Masjid
(219665) l-masjidi (near) Al-Masjid
(221717) wal-masjidi and (preventing access to) Al-Masjid
(5234) l-masjidi Al-Masjid
(7299) masjidin masjid
(7317) masjidin masjid
(8349) l-masjidi Al-Masjid
(9713) l-masjidi Al-Masjid
(9176) masjida (the) masajid of Allah
(9183) masjida (the) masajid of Allah
(9195) l-masjidi (of) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(9289) l-masjida Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(91073) masjidan a masjid
(91085) lamasjidun A masjid
(1717) l-masjidi Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(17110) l-masjidi Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa
(17715) l-masjida the Masjid
(182132) masjidan a place of worship
(2225 wal-masjidi and Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(224022) wamasjidu and masajid
(48256) l-masjidi Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(4827 l-masjida Al-Masjid Al-Haraam
(72182) l-masjida the masjids -
Oh dear.
Nowhere have I ever said an Arabic word (or phrase) in Quran must mean the same thing in every occurrence. That is your strawman logical fallacy.
My view is real simple it is preferable for the exact same Arabic word to mean the same thing in its occurrences but not always IF there is a logical/evidenced reason for it not to. Not reasoning such as "oh no my view of X does not fit here, its ok that means it can mean Y here..... problem solved, let's move on" - if that is the reasoning, then any word can mean anything in Quran - no way to verify any understanding, it's all down to personal whim. That's not my approach.Your assumption (and circular reasoning) was obvious, i.e. the verses refer to Mecca, when in fact they could refer to any place.
You claim part of the problem is not citing all the verses, despite citing all the 'al masjid al haram' verses in the article I linked to.
You may argue I never cited the contexts YOU consider relevant or subjects YOU consider relevant, but this is subjective (note I even tell readers to read the contexts themselves), and it would make the article much longer. But if you think this is an easy oversight on my part, please cite all the relevant verses you think are appropriate for this subject, then I will come along and say you never cited X which I think is relevant.Here's my simple challenge to you (and everyone). Please cite the strongest possible objection you can think of to my understanding. Take your time, think long and hard, then post it on the discussion thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467
If you think there are several really strong objections, then provide your top three.My objections to 'sacred mosque' are already in the article, read the above thread and see how many people attempted to answer them.
This reminds me of when I wrote my article on sujud, plenty of people criticised it but no-one attempted to answer the objections. I then made a simplified list for people http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html and only then one person attempted to answer them (to my knowledge). Most of the sujud=physical prostration view still run away.
Fact is, people tend to run away from findings that challenge their views. I get it. No-one likes to have their views challenged......... well, except sincere truthseekers that is.
I'd expect a genuine truthseeker to say "Yeah Mecca is unheard of in non-Islamic sources and never cited as being on a trade route or a trading hub, and it's only in Islamic sources written decades (perhaps 100+ years after Quran) that say it was, but it's a possibility it was" - I'd say "yeah it's possible, but it's also possible it wasn't."
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Oh dear.
Frustrated with me?
Nowhere have I ever said an Arabic word (or phrase) in Quran must mean the same thing in every occurrence. That is your strawman logical fallacy.
My view is real simple it is preferable for the exact same Arabic word to mean the same thing in its occurrences but not always IF there is a logical/evidenced reason for it not to. Not reasoning such as "oh no my view of X does not fit here, its ok that means it can mean Y here..... problem solved, let's move on" - if that is the reasoning, then any word can mean anything in Quran - no way to verify any understanding, it's all down to personal whim. That's not my approach.Pointing out logical fallacies are we?
Funny. Because it is not a strawman argument. You have conveyed such in your reasoning by always adhering and leaning upon a specific understanding. If it were not so you you would not have come to a hard conclusion on masjid-al-haram. You would have rather concluded that in certain instances perhaps al masjid-al-haram conveys a locality and in other instances otherwise. Unfortunately, for you I have you on recordConclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).The reader is recommended to re-read and reflect upon the findings of this work. All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.
Anyone can see that you claim that "your understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout."
No strawman on my part. Try again.Your assumption (and circular reasoning) was obvious, i.e. the verses refer to Mecca, when in fact they could refer to any place.
Regardless of what you think this locality is called Mekkah, Bakkah or whether these names are of importance at all.....
.....Can you deny that any of the ayaats I have cited are not referring to a physical location?
What is this sanctuary established for the mankind?Did you even read my post? Bro I said that already.
And you acknowledge that Mekkah( a.k.a mother of the towns ]which is a township/city not a House or place of worship in the sense) is a locality.
By the way thanks for not even addressing any of my questions and then challenging me to answer yours. nopeYou claim part of the problem is not citing all the verses, despite citing all the 'al masjid al haram' verses in the article I linked to.
You may argue I never cited the contexts YOU consider relevant or subjects YOU consider relevant, but this is subjective (note I even tell readers to read the contexts themselves), and it would make the article much longer. But if you think this is an easy oversight on my part, please cite all the relevant verses you think are appropriate for this subject, then I will come along and say you never cited X which I think is relevant.I may... but I have not, this makes your argument the strawman bravo
Here's my simple challenge to you (and everyone). Please cite the strongest possible objection you can think of to my understanding. Take your time, think long and hard, then post it on the discussion thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467
If you think there are several really strong objections, then provide your top three.Pause, I have already presented to you why your interpretation lacks logic and is a clear arbitrary decision in the post above.
Furthermore, before challenging anyone try answering my questions and arguments which put a hole in yours.
Why does anyone need to post on a thread from the 1500s?
How about we discuss based on our present day understanding right here. Although we are getting a bit off topic to be honest.My objections to 'sacred mosque' are already in the article, read the above thread and see how many people attempted to answer them.
This reminds me of when I wrote my article on sujud, plenty of people criticised it but no-one attempted to answer the objections. I then made a simplified list for people http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html and only then one person attempted to answer them (to my knowledge). Most of the sujud=physical prostration view still run away.
Fact is, people tend to run away from findings that challenge their views. I get it. No-one likes to have their views challenged......... well, except sincere truthseekers that is.
I'd expect a genuine truthseeker to say "Yeah Mecca is unheard of in non-Islamic sources and never cited as being on a trade route or a trading hub, and it's only in Islamic sources written decades (perhaps 100+ years after Quran) that say it was, but it's a possibility it was" - I'd say "yeah it's possible, but it's also possible it wasn't."
My that is a lot of taunting and a lot of ego. hmm
No one was able to rise to mighty Wakas' challenge huh?
Thanks for the update on the history of runners in this forum, but it is obvious that right here right now, you are the track star, evading my questions and arguments and focusing only on a strawman and Mekkah when I have stated that you can disregard the associating of it with masjid al haram and answer honestly if you testify with all certainty that masjid al haram is not a physical locality.Did mighty Wakas actually read HP_TECH's previous post at all? Or did he let his ego and the fact HP_TECH challenged his views prevent him from actually addressing any of HP_TECH's arguments?
No...Mighty Wakas can just pick and choose what to respond to.
Why bother responding when he can just always flash a link to his 2,000 year old posts. After all his reasoning then is infallible and the same as today.Just for the record, I do not understand your obsession with trying to authenticate your understanding of topics in Quran with non-Islamic sources as if that would validate the truth in the Book. You seek confirmation outside of the Quran and then lash out on Hadithists and traditionalists. The sweet irony.
I have said before disregard the name Mecca or any specific traditional location. Now, can you (or anyone else) deny that al Masjid al Haram is a physical location based on evidence from Quran?
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The "oh dear" was primarily at your poor quality of reply (which I did read), not frustration.
Anyone can see that you claim that "your understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout."
Exactly. Since I never found an obvious problem there was no need for me to say it means X here, it means Y here, it means Z here etc. So yes you still made a strawman.
No one was able to rise to mighty Wakas' challenge huh?
In this case, yeah, pretty much. But don't take my word for it, just try and find those who attempted to answer the objections - I only know of one to my knowledge.
Just for the record, I do not understand your obsession with trying to authenticate your understanding of topics in Quran with non-Islamic sources as if that would validate the truth in the Book. You seek confirmation outside of the Quran and then lash out on Hadithists and traditionalists. The sweet irony.
Anyone who reads my articles knows they are Quran based, and never rely upon being "authenticated" by non-Islamic sources. YOU are the one who claimed Mecca was a busy trading hub, then cited various Quran verses which never mention Mecca. So since it was obvious there was no Quranic evidence I mentioned the fact that this is not even found in non-Islamic sources - in other words you have nothing except Traditional sources where this alleged evidence is found. YOU are the one viewing Quran through traditional sources. Irony indeed.
But you got one thing right, I did not directly answer any of your objections to my 'al masjid al haram' article and I did that for a very good reason. Not only is it off-topic, but I want to make sure you have actually read the article and the objections you raised are the strongest possible ones you can think of.
If you're not up to the challenge then don't post them on the actual thread dedicated to the article. If you are, post them.
(please note if you post them I will assume they are the strongest you can come up with and I will respond to them) -
Back to the topic I suppose then.
If the OP wishes, he can read through my posts again and see the flaw in the question. The question assumes that the ayaat is conveying a perpetual command, while we see that surah 9 itself is a moral booster. A decree of war against a certain group of polytheists that prevented the prophet and the believers of that time from entering masjid-al-haram, and inflicted harm upon them and broke their pledge with them and did not honor this pledge nor the ties of kinship. Allah would not have His prophet and those who followed him, succumb to the harm of treachery whilst they had more right to be in care of the masjid.492 O you who believe! (Do) not raise your voices above (the) voice (of) the Prophet, and (do) not be loud to him in speech like (the) loudness (of) some of you to others, lest become worthless your deeds while you (do) not perceive.
Are you going to ask next how we can follow this command if the messenger is dead?
I hope you see your own question as ridiculous as the one above would be.
Wake up folks, perhaps the Hour is near
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So, who are Mushriks? english, jews, others.............or don't they exist anymore?
Does anybody needs to be turned away from the AlMasjid AlHaram?
If yes How can it be done?
peace
You live in reality 357. Do the believers have an actual nation and a leader?
Can a group of disunited and dispersed lone wolfs make a political claim for the care of the masjid?
That's what happened at the time of the prophet. Furthermore this nation of people had a military and were fought against and prevented from entering the masjid.
Wherever you consider the masjid to be do we have the same conditions today?
Where is the nation of believers and their political leader?
And their military?
Are you as a believer prevented from entering set masjid?Furthermore as I stated before did not the believes endure the harm of the pagans until the fighting was decreed for them?
They awaited the command of Allah.
Even if you want to make the claim that the believers are being targeted and harmed in the precincts of the masjid, you have to remember that Allah has decreed for us to give respite and forgive those who do not hope for the days of Allah until the command of their Lord so that He may recompense them in full and to wait because they too are waiting.
You have to think critically 3
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For me masjid is natural or man made sanctuary throughout QURAN.. It fits for all occurrences of word masjid in it.. Even for the building raised on behalf of cave people..
Masjid Al haram is definitely the restricted sanctuary.. Nothing like inviolable time of.. Bla bla
Yes for sure Makka is irrelevant with masjid Al haram.. It's somewhere else and not more important to us..since it is not a must thing that we should converge to a certain place yearly to reach our goal or eternal paradise.. But It was important from Abraham to Mohamed definitely for the purpose of spreading monotheistic system.. And it is over and completed we all have Quran.. Follow it.. If things not clear search it and if not found answer leave it.. But don't do it against your knowledge..
Yes as per Wakas shiud is definitely not physical.. It's verbal statement mostly and mental acceptance too.. It's submission.. Surrendering or yielding to the will of Superior authority to be exact or to a person or system -
Hey all.. One must be wondering how this person say that haj is not important for us anymore.. If anyone was reading quran repetitively he/she would have understood it's not important for current people.. Only historical anxiety.
Just God created Adam and then big story and send them to earth with his partner and they reproduced and slowly family increased.. And God promised I will send you reminders and whoever follows it is successful.. Then came to Noah and seems the only community in the whole world in certain place and He made him the prophet probably the first of them and scriptures started coming from God for salvation of men.. And it continued with Ad, thamud etc.. But community looked so minor and almost in same place..
Then came Ibrahim and things changed looks like one community had become wider and various and needed extra explanation and requirement from God. So started all system and temple and converging to certain place to spread the monotheism.. Interestingly all the prophets mentioned at least mentioned with bit of their stories seems from same areas in a big vicinity.. Likewise things grew people started living in various places and God would have sent Messages to them.. God knows.. But this identical area of prophets grew from Abraham (including all mainly mentioned prophets) to Mohamed at last.. They all lived in a period where they needed spreading the message by converging to a scertain place.. That was Masjid Al haram, The restricted sanctuary.. People needed witnessing from their own naked eyes what exactly these prophets were preaching and not from heresay.. And in it they got benefited and of course for such a great event of four restricted months cannot b without food.. And cattle could b the best option of this dry area as most available food..
So, there ended the period of Mohamed and God stopped sending messages in the form of books and prophets... Why why .. Without reason it won't.. And we know almost from that era to Now world has been developing and has become as one global village Now.. Same as Adam or Noah period.. No need to go and witness anything you can witness it from your home.. And verify.. And till the world end there will b no prophet.. N we don't no when it will end.. So it would be the greatest / lengthy time period ever after Noah without being a prophet being send.. There is logic in it.. Even if Allah had a plan to send a prophet Now.. He would b like all those good believers, would b giving His message through internet and chating with people online and going mostly worldwide to spread his message by making big stages.. So in that aspect people would raise questions and argue and agree and disagree same as we do now.. So do we really need a prophet now? No no no no need for me honestly.. Coz God said no need so no need for me.. So there should be a way to find truth.. Search things from every where and compare it with Quran ..accept it or not up to individuals...
So we have Quran and latest technology so no need to go to Masjid Al haram to search God's evidences.. God's evidence is at our finger tips. Just note almost 90 percent of Quran's message is addressing the same community not us.. For us is to explore it and find out how emphatic It is n truthful n follow what it address in common to all.. God knows best.. -
Hey folks I forgot my important thing.. (human that's why)..
God promised to protect his last revealed book.. Only that he promised.. Never promised he will protect and crystal clearly show to all yes this the restricted sanctuary you all should converge till day of ressurection.. If Allah has no promise then, what we see Now is not strange.. This all for that community.. For example about 4 restricted months mentioned in Quran.. Honestly do we have any value of those 4 restricted months as true believers to God..? Do we really know is it Arabic month, or normal lunar or solar? Do we really in our normal life restrain from it.. In case a Norwegian hunted a bulky rabbit during this month, does he has to bring it so called Kaaba and should b verified by two men of saudi(to a Norwegian rabbit. Sorry bit funny). Come on folks all these for the oh so people who lived in those period.. For us is to establish morals and brongforth purification .. Take what is common 231-9 and many more good advices in common..
