Can we have concensus?
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Peace Zulf.
I was specific- Those who follow Qoran- It does not matter if they do not agree on how to follow Qoran.
I was stating some basics, do you disagree with the basics I stated in my post?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I think consensus is, like Wakas stated an utopia for a forum. It would be pretty boring reading everyone agreeing on everything.
I don't care about people disagreeing. If disagreeing arguments are rational, logically solid and concise, sometimes they help improving your own understanding of things. I've changed or perfected my opinion on a few matters thanks to the reflection this forum offers. As such I'm not here to win debates. My ego is irrelevant.
If I think some people are showing signs of immorality or narrow-mindedness then that's not my concern.
If they aren't rational or logic, then it's a waste of my time reading it.
I can understand some users experience a forum differently and are seeking social dynamics requiring a consensus to safeguard the emotional peace. But that's entirely not why I'm here. So the sentimental aspects and emotional reactions are not my cup of tea and when people direct those at me I'm usually like
http//skidmoreunofficial.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/mature_businessmen_brushing_dirt_off_shoulder_20983.jpg
Peace
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Hello,
I think it is most important that we improve ourselves. The actual "GOD" we can have our way with as we see fit. I serve my God more clearly now than I have ever done before and I acknowledge that God can be served as an entity in symbiosis. God is recommended not to go against, because that can give some unpleasant consequences. I would never recommend fighting God, because it is inevitable one ends up loser since He/She got control over every atom of the universe. Even if in a cottage in the wild woods one is never alone, for the Universe (Foundation) is there.
In my Faith one is to separate the Body and find the concealed Spirit from within oneself, that one Spirit which is interconnected with what is God and nourish and grow it and meanwhile the Body should be no distraction. Merely discovering oneself is a victory, but it takes that we grow into completion so that God has some fruit to harvest. It is such a shame you do not read the same book as I, things such as tending the cultivation et cetera is mentioned in great detail in it.
Apart from that I basically agree with what Arman wrote concerning his ten points mentioned.
Be well
Emanuel -
I think I cannot hope that we can get consensus here in this forum.
One of my good friends told me
This forum has been hijacked since 2013.
I still don't know why he wrote "since 2013",
but I tend to agree with the part that I changed to bold.
So, about consensus in this forum, I think I prefer to disregard it,
and to find benefit from this forum, I prefer to find good friends (allies), who I can trust (inshaAllah), so I can discuss, ask, and/or exchange valuable information with them. For me, it is important to have true believers as allies.
Praise be to Allah, I found few allies here who are good and sane people, hmm... according to my judgement of course.
I also have nicknames for each of them (but I haven't told them... *chuckle). I chose these nicknames for them
the white wings
the light hunter
the golden arrow
the shade tree
the warm bonfireMay Allah bless them, they're my precious brothers.
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Interesting thread.. yes we should see on how far we can get a consensus / agreement upon.
Let's start with the most important thing..
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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
A common consensus that can be shared with Billions of people around the world.
Across varying religions, cultures and languages.
Appeared many times around the globe.
From Confucius to Jesus has cited the above as the most important commandment.
A very important gauge to measure Good or Evil. -
Pride is the root of all evil
Again also appeared many times around the globe across varying religions, cultures and languages. -
Humility is the root of all goodness
Again also appeared many times around the globe across varying religions, cultures and languages.
Let me stop here, 3 points is good enough as the first step..
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Salamun Alaikum.
After spending more than a year in this forum, I am now convinced that in a forum like this we will never get consensus on most of the topics. For example, we will never get consensus on whether it is okay to personify God and if yes, to what extent. Nor will we have consensus whether ?Religion? is necessary or only an evil. We cannot come to a conclusion about what is salaat, jakaat, hujj, ramadan, riba. Nor can we agree on fundamental scientific observations like the shape of earth or evolution of species.
Given so much disagreement my question is, can we have at least consensus on some points? Below I list 10 points on which I believe we should and can have a consensus. May I take your opinion on whether any of you would disagree on any of the 10 points below?
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That we should be grateful for the gift of life ? our physical abilities, our intellect, our families, our education, our achievements and failure ? everything.
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Because of our gratitude we should acknowledge our responsibility to be fair towards others to the best of our abilities.
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And that we should be held accountable for our ability / inability to be fair to others and accept the consequences thereof.
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In our effort to be fair towards others we should strive to be respectful to moral standards by striving towards goodness and nice things and refraining from all form of deplorable practices.
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That we should also strive for purification in our livelihood, lest we consume what does not rightfully belong to us.
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That we should practice restrain on our physical desires and material passions lest they should lead us to act immorally.
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That to the extent of our ability we have an obligation to explore and contemplate and debate the source and the purpose of our conscious experience.
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That in determining what is fair, what is good and pure vs. what is deplorable, evil and immoral our final standard should be the most sincere application of our own intellect and conscience ? we must avoid blind faith in any book / dogma / preacher or tradition. (By blind faith I mean a faith that wants us to shut off our intellect and conscience.)
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That if we end up making a mistake, we should be remorseful and we should turn back through correction and reconciliation as soon as we recognize the mistake and
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That we should help each other in fair dealings and forbid from all forms of deplorable behavior.
It is my humble opinion ? if we can accept and agree upon the above principles we can peacefully coexist irrespective of our otherwise differences of beliefs, rituals and traditions. If we can be sincere, our master is not unjust by an atoms weight and He guides to the straight route whomever He wills.
Later to our Master is our return and He will judge amongst us how we used to act.
Best regards,
ArmanWow, I disagree with all ten points of light, and I haven't even read them yet!
Ok let me read them now.
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Nope! Grateful for what?! No way! All that stuff sucks! I wanted to be even greater than this! I was given an imagination just that it tortures me with all the things I am not! I could've had an immune body! No! My education!? That I know of suffering and horror?! Yuck! No no no! (Listening to the song From Rusholme with Love).
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What does my gratitude have to do with being fair? Why should I be "fair" when things are not "fair" to me? No, I think our goodness should stem from our acknowledgment of the misery, the plight of ourselves shared by all the other sufferers of life and existence under less than ideal conditions, not at all from gratitude, but from sorrow. That I am sooo sorry you were born here, let me be a little kindness for you, before I cause you to suffer, even on accident. I want them to give me all kinds of good, I don't care for "fairness", if I do wrong I do not want it counted against me, if they do wrong, I want justice to be taken on them. I do not want the thief to get away with stealing, and I do not want to be accused of stealing. Is anything ever fair? Was it fair in the beginning? This world is made of unfairness and imbalance is behind it all. Are we equals with God? Is there any fairness? Is there any balance or symmetry really?
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No, I do not want to be held accountable for anything at all, that would be a dreadful thing to desire. Never. I do not concede to this law or to justice systems at all, only out of fear that they might bite me in the end, though I would use them advantageously if necessary. Yuck to such things though! If I murder and do evil, I do not want to be harmed ever, nor to be accused of harm, and if my associates are murdering thieves, I do not want them to be harmed either, only if they are unfavorable to me do I want measures to be taken against them. I want good from Allah for free, based on nothing, I want to be showered in blessings from the beginning to eternity, and such should graciously be given to all if there was any such grace, but I don't care if they get it or not, only that I do and those I care for.
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People find my beautiful speeches deplorable at times, so no, I think there is no definition vast enough to encompass all the differences in opinion about what constitutes this or that. A better number 4 for me would be to respect and love FreedomStands and FreedomStands dictates based on his moods whatever is good or bad at any given moment. Of course, it is not so, since FreedomStands is not God, but perhaps things would be better if it were so, or does power always lead to the creation of immense suffering and its toleration?
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What does not rightfully belong to us? What does not rightfully belong to us? Uh? Nothing rightfully belongs to us, nothing "rightfully" or "rightly" belongs to ANYTHING. What "right" in the sense of Justice, does God the creator have in creating and causing suffering? Do you think that just because you've created something you have no responsibility towards its treatment? That if you were to make a robot, you have the right to slash its face however you please? Who pleases? None of this is "right". We are all destitute and poor vagabonds in the world, and "right" has nothing to do with it, it seems, in any sense of the word.
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Not at all. My view is to examine those things, and utilize that energy towards channeling it in ways which are beneficial for oneself and one's loved ones rather than having to restrain anything. There can be right Hatred, right Envy, right Fear, right Sadness, right Lying (jokes for example), and whatever else. There is no need to restrain your lustful desire, but to use it in ways that will empower yourself and benefit yourself. So Lust rightfully, Hate rightfully, Kill rightfully, and all righteousness and nobility stems from the Fear of Allah the Terror.
-
We have no such obligation, nor can anyone accomplish such a thing, except those cursed to do so (such as myself). How cruel that something should be called an obligation, when the people are not even capable of it in the first place. Like asking a mental retard to do some extremely complex thing and saying its their obligation. They can't do it, and the Qur'an says whether you tell them or not, they are like dogs lolling out their tongues regardless. The disbelievers are free, just like they had hoped, they have no obligation to do right, it is their duty to do wrong, that is their function in this world as Allah intends it to be.
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Those who follow their hearts and their minds seem to be just as astray as those who follow the hearts and minds of others. To hell with them all. I do not believe in the capacity of people to determine what is right for themselves, so they should listen to me instead. It is cruel to ask a brain-dead population to think for themselves, what they come up with is more stupidity, because they are dumb, what do you expect of them? The Qur'an clearly says their "hearts" as in their "minds" or "understandings" are Diseased, they are mentally ill, why are you asking for the impossible? It is Allah who has made them that way, it says so in the Qur'an even and regardless of what the Qur'an says, is it not apparent?
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What does it matter about the remorseful aspect except to entertain others? How was it a "mistake"? If it was a "mistake" then what are they feeling remorseful about, as it was not intentional? If it was intentional, it was not a mistake, and again they did it on purpose so why were they not "remorseful" ahead of time? No, humans are incapable of regret truly, they regret the consequences, not the actions they did happily in the first place, the sinning scum. Their regret would only be to please us, but we can never be pleased, because they can never truly regret!
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Nothing to do with fairness. If a man gives me a good deal, I take it, unless I perceive its a bad deal. Someone offered me an expensive book for 5 dollars, I had very little money, I took it as a gift from Allah. Nothing to do with fairness.
So my prediction was true after all. I disagreed with the ten points of light and tried to provide thereby things to ponder and meditate on. Of course, very few will, instead you will take it as an attempt to merely disagree, rather than an attempt to induce thoughtful meditations on perhaps deeper truths.
Your points are good, and it would have seemed that anyone would quickly agree with them without deriving any benefit from trying to see it otherwise. Then again, FreedomStands!
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Interesting thread.. yes we should see on how far we can get a consensus / agreement upon.
Let's start with the most important thing..
-
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
A common consensus that can be shared with Billions of people around the world.
Across varying religions, cultures and languages.
Appeared many times around the globe.
From Confucius to Jesus has cited the above as the most important commandment.
A very important gauge to measure Good or Evil. -
Pride is the root of all evil
Again also appeared many times around the globe across varying religions, cultures and languages. -
Humility is the root of all goodness
Again also appeared many times around the globe across varying religions, cultures and languages.
Let me stop here, 3 points is good enough as the first step..
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What if someone is masochistic, so they would have done unto them something bad and think well of it, and thus do it others? It is a dumb law and I've never liked it. Do unto others the best of the best (as determined by FreedomStands), now we're talking!
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Pride is extremely important, self deprecation might be the root of all evil (really the root of all evil is God of course). If you do not value yourself highly, then why would you care what happens to you or others? You'll be a whore, what does it matter then, what are you protecting if you are not proud of yourself? Pride is a beautiful protection from vileness. To hell with the foolish statements of ignorant people (I don't mean you, I mean those "around the world" who have long said idiotic "truisms" that only "seem" right if no deep consideration is given to them).
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People seem to misunderstand humility greatly, humility is also the cause in many cases of letting disease pervade. Turning the other cheek is indeed a wicked practice, just as an eye for an eye is. True humility is realizing our already humiliated state before God, it is known as the Fear of God. There is no other humility except false humility, and self depreciation is the cause of great evils, never the cause of anything truly good (the way people usually use the word humility). Pride is the valuable state, and realizing who and what God is.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Thank you to all those who cared enough to post responses on this thread. I particularly liked the additions from Emanuel about "continuous improvement" and emphasis from Jafar on "Humility". To brother Wakas, I do get your point - but I was just wondering if there are some core principles which we can all agree to. Perhaps, it is not as simple anyway.
Those of you who do believe we can agree upon the core principles of being grateful for the gift of life and thereby accepting responsibility and accountability for striving to lead a respectful life grounded upon the principles of fair-dealing - hope we can stay firm upon these principles till the end.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
In genereal, there are things all humanity can have consensus about. These are things that are "built in" in us. Stuff we spontaneously can feel in the heart. The common denominators are there. But the only issue is that we can not feel them all the time. We are many times numb. We can only kill, hurt and destroy when we are numb and blind to the universal human common denominators. So, yes, we can (are able to) have consensus, but we won't.... because we are human beings on a quest to heal our perspective.
Peace
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In genereal, there are things all humanity can have consensus about. These are things that are "built in" in us. Stuff we spontaneously can feel in the heart. The common denominators are there. But the only issue is that we can not feel them all the time. We are many times numb. We can only kill, hurt and destroy when we are numb and blind to the universal human common denominators. So, yes, we can (are able to) have consensus, but we won't.... because we are human beings on a quest to heal our perspective.
Peace
Very well said brother. May Allah increase you in wisdom.
Regards,
Arman -
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No, there can never be any consensus in religions. Just try to be human, don't do onto others what you don't want others to do onto you. That one rule alone would turn the world into a paradise. If there is a God, which is highly likely in my opinion, then He must be the God of all human beings on earth. Either he loves us all or none of us.
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No, there can never be any consensus in religions. Just try to be human, don't do onto others what you don't want others to do onto you. That one rule alone would turn the world into a paradise. If there is a God, which is highly likely in my opinion, then He must be the God of all human beings on earth. Either he loves us all or none of us.
Hope you read the opening post.
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Hope you read the opening post.
Peace Arman,
My apologies, I hadn't but I'm reading your post now and fully agree with all of your 10 points. Blind faith in any book is wrong and has tragic consequences. We can't build a civilization, a functioning economy, rule of law, architecture, education, science or anything else based on any religious book written thousands of years ago. There are many things in the Qur'an that are completely unacceptable to any thinking and sincere person. It's now perfectly clear to me that the majority of the Qur'an is not universal, but directly related to the Arabs of 1400 years ago in a certain socio-cultural-historical context. Unfortunately it took me many years to recover from this religious fundamentalism and literalism that had been torturing my brain and soul my whole life.. for the first time in my life I feel genuinely free.
Your point 8 is one of the most truthful and most important statements I have ever heard...
"8. That in determining what is fair, what is good and pure vs. what is deplorable, evil and immoral our final standard should be the most sincere application of our own intellect and conscience ? we must avoid blind faith in any book / dogma / preacher or tradition. (By blind faith I mean a faith that wants us to shut off our intellect and conscience.)"
Indeed, that is what I meant by a tortured mind and soul. I had been able to shut of my intellect to a certain extent, but I could never shut off my conscience. I could never understand why God would allow men to beat their wives; why women should obey their husbands; why non-Muslims are all going to an eternal Hell etc. I actually never believed any of that, but I FORCED myself not to dwell on it. I'm not afraid anymore to be an "apostate", I reject the notion of a God who will burn people in an eternal Hell. I reject a God who is an Arab or a Muslim, Jew or Christian. I reject the notion of a pathetic and psychopathic God who feels so "insulted" by people not believing in Him that he will torture them. I reject a God who needs anger management classes; a God who is immoral, injust, despotic and insane.
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Peace Arman,
My apologies, I hadn't but I'm reading your post now and fully agree with all of your 10 points. Blind faith in any book is wrong and has tragic consequences. We can't build a civilization, a functioning economy, rule of law, architecture, education, science or anything else based on any religious book written thousands of years ago. There are many things in the Qur'an that are completely unacceptable to any thinking and sincere person. It's now perfectly clear to me that the majority of the Qur'an is not universal, but directly related to the Arabs of 1400 years ago in a certain socio-cultural-historical context. Unfortunately it took me many years to recover from this religious fundamentalism and literalism that had been torturing my brain and soul my whole life.. for the first time in my life I feel genuinely free.
Your point 8 is one of the most truthful and most important statements I have ever heard...
"8. That in determining what is fair, what is good and pure vs. what is deplorable, evil and immoral our final standard should be the most sincere application of our own intellect and conscience ? we must avoid blind faith in any book / dogma / preacher or tradition. (By blind faith I mean a faith that wants us to shut off our intellect and conscience.)"
Indeed, that is what I meant by a tortured mind and soul. I had been able to shut of my intellect to a certain extent, but I could never shut off my conscience. I could never understand why God would allow men to beat their wives; why women should obey their husbands; why non-Muslims are all going to an eternal Hell etc. I actually never believed any of that, but I FORCED myself not to dwell on it. I'm not afraid anymore to be an "apostate", I reject the notion of a God who will burn people in an eternal Hell. I reject a God who is an Arab or a Muslim, Jew or Christian. I reject the notion of a pathetic and psychopathic God who feels so "insulted" by people not believing in Him that he will torture them. I reject a God who needs anger management classes; a God who is immoral, injust, despotic and insane.
Peace Recluse,
Where do you stand now if I may ask?
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Just try to be human, don't do onto others what you don't want others to do onto you. That one rule alone would turn the world into a paradise.
Indeed it will..
The ability to do just that is embedded in (most) of us, it's called "empathy"..
It need nurture and training though.. -
Peace Recluse,
Where do you stand now if I may ask?
Peace Comrox,
Of course you may...
I still believe in one Creator based on the evidence I see in the DNA, the laws of the universe and so many other things (too many to mention here), but I have come to the conclusion that all God wants from us humans is to be good and just and that all human beings are equal. I also believe that probably there must be some form of punishment for evil people who murder, invade, plunder, rape etc. But I no longer believe in organized religions claiming that in order to be saved from "eternal Hell" you must join their exclusive "club".
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Wow, I disagree with all ten points of light, and I haven't even read them yet!
Ok let me read them now.
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Nope! Grateful for what?! No way! All that stuff sucks! I wanted to be even greater than this! I was given an imagination just that it tortures me with all the things I am not! I could've had an immune body! No! My education!? That I know of suffering and horror?! Yuck! No no no! (Listening to the song From Rusholme with Love).
-
What does my gratitude have to do with being fair? Why should I be "fair" when things are not "fair" to me? No, I think our goodness should stem from our acknowledgment of the misery, the plight of ourselves shared by all the other sufferers of life and existence under less than ideal conditions, not at all from gratitude, but from sorrow. That I am sooo sorry you were born here, let me be a little kindness for you, before I cause you to suffer, even on accident. I want them to give me all kinds of good, I don't care for "fairness", if I do wrong I do not want it counted against me, if they do wrong, I want justice to be taken on them. I do not want the thief to get away with stealing, and I do not want to be accused of stealing. Is anything ever fair? Was it fair in the beginning? This world is made of unfairness and imbalance is behind it all. Are we equals with God? Is there any fairness? Is there any balance or symmetry really?
-
No, I do not want to be held accountable for anything at all, that would be a dreadful thing to desire. Never. I do not concede to this law or to justice systems at all, only out of fear that they might bite me in the end, though I would use them advantageously if necessary. Yuck to such things though! If I murder and do evil, I do not want to be harmed ever, nor to be accused of harm, and if my associates are murdering thieves, I do not want them to be harmed either, only if they are unfavorable to me do I want measures to be taken against them. I want good from Allah for free, based on nothing, I want to be showered in blessings from the beginning to eternity, and such should graciously be given to all if there was any such grace, but I don't care if they get it or not, only that I do and those I care for.
-
People find my beautiful speeches deplorable at times, so no, I think there is no definition vast enough to encompass all the differences in opinion about what constitutes this or that. A better number 4 for me would be to respect and love FreedomStands and FreedomStands dictates based on his moods whatever is good or bad at any given moment. Of course, it is not so, since FreedomStands is not God, but perhaps things would be better if it were so, or does power always lead to the creation of immense suffering and its toleration?
-
What does not rightfully belong to us? What does not rightfully belong to us? Uh? Nothing rightfully belongs to us, nothing "rightfully" or "rightly" belongs to ANYTHING. What "right" in the sense of Justice, does God the creator have in creating and causing suffering? Do you think that just because you've created something you have no responsibility towards its treatment? That if you were to make a robot, you have the right to slash its face however you please? Who pleases? None of this is "right". We are all destitute and poor vagabonds in the world, and "right" has nothing to do with it, it seems, in any sense of the word.
-
Not at all. My view is to examine those things, and utilize that energy towards channeling it in ways which are beneficial for oneself and one's loved ones rather than having to restrain anything. There can be right Hatred, right Envy, right Fear, right Sadness, right Lying (jokes for example), and whatever else. There is no need to restrain your lustful desire, but to use it in ways that will empower yourself and benefit yourself. So Lust rightfully, Hate rightfully, Kill rightfully, and all righteousness and nobility stems from the Fear of Allah the Terror.
-
We have no such obligation, nor can anyone accomplish such a thing, except those cursed to do so (such as myself). How cruel that something should be called an obligation, when the people are not even capable of it in the first place. Like asking a mental retard to do some extremely complex thing and saying its their obligation. They can't do it, and the Qur'an says whether you tell them or not, they are like dogs lolling out their tongues regardless. The disbelievers are free, just like they had hoped, they have no obligation to do right, it is their duty to do wrong, that is their function in this world as Allah intends it to be.
-
Those who follow their hearts and their minds seem to be just as astray as those who follow the hearts and minds of others. To hell with them all. I do not believe in the capacity of people to determine what is right for themselves, so they should listen to me instead. It is cruel to ask a brain-dead population to think for themselves, what they come up with is more stupidity, because they are dumb, what do you expect of them? The Qur'an clearly says their "hearts" as in their "minds" or "understandings" are Diseased, they are mentally ill, why are you asking for the impossible? It is Allah who has made them that way, it says so in the Qur'an even and regardless of what the Qur'an says, is it not apparent?
-
What does it matter about the remorseful aspect except to entertain others? How was it a "mistake"? If it was a "mistake" then what are they feeling remorseful about, as it was not intentional? If it was intentional, it was not a mistake, and again they did it on purpose so why were they not "remorseful" ahead of time? No, humans are incapable of regret truly, they regret the consequences, not the actions they did happily in the first place, the sinning scum. Their regret would only be to please us, but we can never be pleased, because they can never truly regret!
-
Nothing to do with fairness. If a man gives me a good deal, I take it, unless I perceive its a bad deal. Someone offered me an expensive book for 5 dollars, I had very little money, I took it as a gift from Allah. Nothing to do with fairness.
So my prediction was true after all. I disagreed with the ten points of light and tried to provide thereby things to ponder and meditate on. Of course, very few will, instead you will take it as an attempt to merely disagree, rather than an attempt to induce thoughtful meditations on perhaps deeper truths.
Your points are good, and it would have seemed that anyone would quickly agree with them without deriving any benefit from trying to see it otherwise. Then again, FreedomStands!
Classic symptoms of sociopaths and psychopaths, there is a special place in Hell for people like you.
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