hello_world !

Bender

There is an overall trend of people on this forum trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn and I won't stand for it if I can help it.
He asked for correction and I have given it.
My correction is stern but is not wrong, I am not as passive as others in my delivery but I am just as concerned and caring

Hi,

I might be wrong but to me it looked more like an accusation the a correction.

Anyway I think I understood what he meant with "I can proudly say I do not believe in God, rather, I acknowledge His existence,"
He reached a level that is more then believing. I think a lot of people here have reached that level.
He is not separating himself from the rest, it is just a feeling he has, it has nothing to do with getting fancy or trying to look more special then the rest.
Of course this is also just a speculation from me.

HP_TECH

Then if I misjudged I offer to him my deepest my apology.
I just don't want to see people discard away definitions which are still valid. Others might have a hard time grasping the difference between acknowledgement and belief. They still mean the same when they say I believe firmly, or with certainty or with no doubt.
I was concerned that these little nuances might cause a divide, but perhaps I was too rash in concluding such.

mmkhan

Then if I misjudged I offer to him my deepest my apology.
I just don't want to see people discard away definitions which are still valid. Others might have a hard time grasping the difference between acknowledgement and belief. They still mean the same when they say I believe firmly, or with certainty or with no doubt.
I was concerned that these little nuances might cause a divide, but perhaps I was too rash in concluding such.

Peace,

2260 may help you understand the difference, inshaAllah.

And when Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You give life to the dead." said, "Have you not believed?" He said, "Yes, but only that my heart may be satisfied." said, "Take four birds and commit them to yourself. Then put on each hill a portion of them; then call them - they will come to you in haste. And know that Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."

HP_TECH

Peace,

2260 may help you understand the difference, inshaAllah.

And when Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You give life to the dead." said, "Have you not believed?" He said, "Yes, but only that my heart may be satisfied." said, "Take four birds and commit them to yourself. Then put on each hill a portion of them; then call them - they will come to you in haste. And know that Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."

I am confused about two things.

I think I understand the difference..... unless you think I am showing lack of understanding.
I do not see how this ayaat demonstrates a difference? Are we talking between Iman and zanna?

If 1 happens to be the case could you more clearly explain if you don't mind, how 2260 clarifies that difference in 2?

mmkhan

I am confused about two things.

I think I understand the difference..... unless you think I am showing lack of understanding.
I do not see how this ayaat demonstrates a difference? Are we talking between Iman and zanna?

If 1 happens to be the case could you more clearly explain if you don't mind, how 2260 clarifies that difference in 2?

Peace,

There is no mention of "zanna" in this aayat. But the difference is between "Eimaan" and "Yaqeen".

Ezio

Peace everyone and sorry for the late answer,

Well, I did not expect to raise such - if not any - confusion ^^

The above in red is the perfect example of people trying to divide themselves into sects.
By redefining words that already make perfect sense.

And proves lack of understanding of words.
If you acknowledge the existence of God you by default believe.

People need to really define their terms clearly before making statements like these, because there are different mesnings the word believe can convey.
It can convey certainty in something without absolute proof and even an assumption or supposing.
For all purposes when we Muslims are speaking about believing in God we are of course conveying certainty without absolute proof.

So why try to exclude yourself from the lot by trying to use fancy vocabulary.

Ridiculous

Now. If you'll excuse me

There is an overall trend of people on this forum trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn and I won't stand for it if I can help it.
He asked for correction and I have given it.
My correction is stern but is not wrong, I am not as passive as others in my delivery but I am just as concerned and caring

Then if I misjudged I offer to him my deepest my apology.
I just don't want to see people discard away definitions which are still valid. Others might have a hard time grasping the difference between acknowledgement and belief. They still mean the same when they say I believe firmly, or with certainty or with no doubt.
I was concerned that these little nuances might cause a divide, but perhaps I was too rash in concluding such.

HP_TECH, first of all, thank you for your concern and for trying to correct me when you thought I made a mistake, but I haven't.
Besides, like Bender said, your "correction" sounded more like an accusation, which is funny considering that you do not know me.
But hey, apology accepted ^^
Now, I am the last person on Earth who would like to create any kind of division between my fellow brothers and sisters in humanity, as this would go against my principles and God's commandments to make peace and create unity; And using a "fancy vocabulary" in order to try to "exclude myself from the lot" is far from anything I would do.

As I said to clashncruz earlier in this thread

@clashncruz
Sorry I got you confused !
What I meant is that I am certain of God's existence, which is the reason why I said I do not believe anymore as I oppose those two notions belief and certainty. But not everyone make that distinction, it is my personal view of things, so I understand your confusion ^^
I hope it is clearer now ^^

Peace )

I said here that this distinction I make between acknowledgement and belief is personal because I perfectly grasp the difference between those two notions while, like you said yourself, some people might have a hard time understanding that difference, like you, it seems (one time you say that he who acknowledges believes, and an other time, you say that some people might not grasp the difference, therefore implying you agree there is a difference. A lack of understanding of words, maybe ? lol ^^).

See, I have absolute proof for instance, when I see the world all around me with its perfection shining through the cracks of its imperfections, I see God's fingerprint. The world is imbued with the divine. You might call this subjective because not everyone see it that way, especially if you talk to an atheist, but in the reality we live in, it is very objective, very impartial, because it is a fact God is.

Bender understood perfectly what I meant

Anyway I think I understood what he meant with "I can proudly say I do not believe in God, rather, I acknowledge His existence,"
He reached a level that is more then believing. I think a lot of people here have reached that level.
He is not separating himself from the rest, it is just a feeling he has, it has nothing to do with getting fancy or trying to look more special then the rest.

And again, like Man of Faith said, I do not think (=belief) God exists, I am SURE (=acknowledgement) of it.
I do not hope He exists, I SEE it (I do not mean I see God, obviously).
Though, I shouldn't even say He "exists", as I also make a clear difference between existing and being, between existence and essence, but this is another story; here, it will only add more confusion and besides, I think there is way more appropriate sections to talk about this.

Well, I hope I definitely made things clear pertaining to this issue ^^

I will finish by quoting Man of Faith

Believing is not optimal.

Peace HP_TECH and everyone !

reel

Nice meeting you Ezio. I like your introduction. Welcome to the forum.

I think we get so lost in the idea of believing in God that we end up thinking that this is the only thing we are required to uphold as Muslims. I truly have started to believe that this is one of the reasons why some end up choosing atheism. The point is that we need to love him and this isn't possible without getting to know him first. Love can't be forced and love does not equal to just belief. The only way to know him is by applying the Quranic verses into our lives.

Comrox

Peace,

I think we get so lost in the idea of believing in God that we end up thinking that this is the only thing we are required to uphold as Muslims. I truly have started to believe that this is one of the reasons why some end up choosing atheism. The point is that we need to love him and this isn't possible without getting to know him first. Love can't be forced and love does not equal to just belief. The only way to know him is by applying the Quranic verses into our lives.

I really like the first statement you made here. It's so important that we look beyond the belief part in a sense and think about how our lives can be improved and enriched and how we can become better people. )

Ezio

Peace,

Nice meeting you too reel ^^

You and Comrox are absolutely right, and as you said, love does not equal to just belief, that is why I said I got passed this point.

Anyway, like you said Comrox, we do need to see beyond and work to become better people, but belief - or acknowledgement, if you can get there - is important take two people, for example; the two of them are sure they do righteous works and good deeds every day, but one of them is an atheist - or pretend to believe - and the other, a true believer. Each one of them therefore follows a different moral code, which leads them to handle things in a different way let's say those two persons are judges, and they are confronted with the case of an infamous thief, finally apprehended after years of successful and very profitable burglaries, and let's say they have all the proof they need to charge him with grand theft. The atheist surely will put the thief under arrest and off he goes to spend a great amount of time in prison. The believer, on the other hand, will just cut off all of his resources that he uses to commit his crimes and maybe even put him under light surveillance for some time so that he will never be able to commit thievery ever again.

Of course, this is not the case with everybody, atheist or believer, I generalise here, but you see the picture. Humans' moral code comes and goes with the human culture, it is not set in stone, unlike God's moral compass. Atheists or religious people (I am excluding "islam" here because peacemaking is not a religion) can pretend all they want they do good because they have empathy or/and they have been taught that way, and so on and so forth... but what will happen when their moral compass will change of direction because the norms and tolerance parameters of the society will have changed in the first place ?

Among other things, we have to acknowledge/believe in/accept God if we want to be better people, for He is like a father and we are His children. He knows better.

"For God changes not the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves."

The Reading 1311

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Some wise person once said that you know God when you know yourself. That is very true.

reel

About the thief, the current belief of most Muslims here is that he should reform after his resources have been cut off. I think jail does the same. So in this case, both the groups (atheist and Muslim) would go with arresting. Currently, however, the verse that talks about cutting off hands is leaving me undecided about its true meaning. I brought it up here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608291.0

But just a little about the believer and atheist, if both decide to cling to scholars then both of them are in the same pool. brickwall

Comrox

Anyway, like you said Comrox, we do need to see beyond and work to become better people, but belief - or acknowledgement, if you can get there - is important take two people, for example; the two of them are sure they do righteous works and good deeds every day, but one of them is an atheist - or pretend to believe - and the other, a true believer. Each one of them therefore follows a different moral code, which leads them to handle things in a different way let's say those two persons are judges, and they are confronted with the case of an infamous thief, finally apprehended after years of successful and very profitable burglaries, and let's say they have all the proof they need to charge him with grand theft. The atheist surely will put the thief under arrest and off he goes to spend a great amount of time in prison. The believer, on the other hand, will just cut off all of his resources that he uses to commit his crimes and maybe even put him under light surveillance for some time so that he will never be able to commit thievery ever again.

Of course, this is not the case with everybody, atheist or believer, I generalise here, but you see the picture. Humans' moral code comes and goes with the human culture, it is not set in stone, unlike God's moral compass. Atheists or religious people (I am excluding "islam" here because peacemaking is not a religion) can pretend all they want they do good because they have empathy or/and they have been taught that way, and so on and so forth... but what will happen when their moral compass will change of direction because the norms and tolerance parameters of the society will have changed in the first place ?

Among other things, we have to acknowledge/believe in/accept God if we want to be better people, for He is like a father and we are His children. He knows better.

"For God changes not the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves."

The Reading 1311

Peace

Peace,

I think the simple fact that both the atheist and believer will agree that the thief must be punished in some way is most important. The details can be worked out later. I agree with you that moral values/beliefs can change depending on culture/upbringing/etc.

Interesting that you included that verse. I'm curious what was your intention when you quoted it.

Man_of_Faith

Am I the only one who thinks the most important thing is that the thief is rectified?

Comrox

Am I the only one who thinks the most important thing is that the thief is rectified?

I agree, I thought that's what I wrote.

Man_of_Faith

Well, rectified is having assisted the person in order that they reform themselves. A prison sentence does not reform a person which did do the original crime because they are alienated from the society and/or went wrong in their life. Punishment is about revenge.

Ezio

Peace everyone,

Exactly Man of Faith, prison is more about revenge than justice; human justice never has been about justice actually. And that is the point of my example about the thief prison does not suit his crime; besides, once he is in prison, what will happen to his family, if he has one ? what if his family depended on him financially, for instance ?

But just a little about the believer and atheist, if both decide to cling to scholars then both of them are in the same pool. brickwall

That is why I said

one of them is an atheist - or pretend to believe - and the other, a true believer.

What I meant is that the atheist or the religious person (who relies on scholars, priests, and so on) are to be lumped together here. I should have been more accurate, sorry.

Interesting that you included that verse. I'm curious what was your intention when you quoted it.

Well, you previously said that we have to think about how our lives can be improved and enriched, and I agree with you, that is why I put that verse we have to evolve in a good way as humans so that the world will evolve in the same way.

Peace

Comrox

Well, you previously said that we have to think about how our lives can be improved and enriched, and I agree with you, that is why I put that verse we have to evolve in a good way as humans so that the world will evolve in the same way.

Peace

Peace Ezio,

Got it. It's a great verse.

Ezio

Indeed ^^

Peace

Ezio

Peace brothers and sisters,

It's been a while, and frankly, I do not know if this is the right place to talk about what I am about to say, so moderators, don't hesitate to correct me on this matter.

As you may know, "traditional ramadhan" is near, and so for the first time, I am not going to follow it because of a meticulous study of the Noble Reading without the traditionalist point of view but rather in light of reason, critical thinking and, I hope, God's guidance.

Point is, I said so to my mother (and grandmother who was with her at that moment) and you cannot begin to imagine her reaction. She basically exploded with anger, yelling, among other things, that she won't let me (as if she had power over that). Don't get me wrong, I love her and honestly, I somehow understand her she was brainwashed since a kid by traditionalist "muslims" and, as she told me, she doesn't want me to face Hell. That's allright, I told her the same about her, but I am her son, so basically, and that is her saying, she knows better on islam than I do.

Anyway, I tried to explain to her that shahr doesn't mean month, that she is basically following ahadith, that I have studied the quran on this matter, the Arabic language, and so on and so forth... nothing, as expected. Her reaction is still that of a nuclear warhead...
They even ask me "So tell me, if ramadhan is not in the quran, then is salat in the quran ? is hajj in the quran ?" And keep in mind that only my grandmother does the Sunni salat, goes to hajj and wear a headscarf, none of my parents (both in the 50's) do any of that... yet.
So I reply yes, but not in the way they practice it. As you may guess, it didn't get better, and apparently, I am inhabited by the devil himself... I mean, what an honor nope

But the worst is that she and my traditionalist grandmother (as well as my father) are following the ahadith literature without even knowing it I tell them they are following the ahadith of Bukhari and Co., but "No !" they say, "we are merely quoting the quran !" I mean... Really ?!
So I tell them that there is nowhere, in the 114 chapters of the quran, a description of the traditionalist salat (no rakka, no anything), and this is where you can measure the depth of their knowledge on the matter of islam which, as they themselves say, has been taught to them since their childhood according to them, the quran is not just 114 suras, but there is a lot more to it, many books as thick as the one I have (the quran). So I said I was right, they are following ahadith. Again, they replied in the negative, explaining to me, and fasten your seat belts, it is about to be epic "there is 60 hizbs that constitute the quran, not just 114 suras"

My reaction ? brickwall

I tried to explain to them what hizbs are. Care to guess their reaction ? Exactly, same as usual ignore
Oh and that I should consult a psychologist to get my brain washed elektro

My mom wants us (her and I) to go meet with the imam by tomorrow, so I ask him about salat in the quran, and so on. Because again, as they say, God has put imams and the likes in the position to enlighten us on the meaning of the quran I do not have the right to try to understand it by myself...

Well... usual traditionalist crap, right ?

Honeslty, I already know the imam won't be able to answer, that he will say "there is no description of the salat in the quran, but in the ahadith..." anyway, I told her, I do not follow the clergy... but does she care ?

So brothers and sisters, what should I do about this situation ? And keep in mind this is mostly about the coming "month of ramadhan" that they absolutly want me to do as usual. Their reactions just give me the chills and I do not know how to deal with them or their ignorance (I tried to ignore them on that matter, but you may know that most warheads are target-tracking missiles, so...)

Peace ! (

HP_TECH

Peace brothers and sisters,

It's been a while, and frankly, I do not know if this is the right place to talk about what I am about to say, so moderators, don't hesitate to correct me on this matter.

As you may know, "traditional ramadhan" is near, and so for the first time, I am not going to follow it because of a meticulous study of the Noble Reading without the traditionalist point of view but rather in light of reason, critical thinking and, I hope, God's guidance.

Point is, I said so to my mother (and grandmother who was with her at that moment) and you cannot begin to imagine her reaction. She basically exploded with anger, yelling, among other things, that she won't let me (as if she had power over that). Don't get me wrong, I love her and honestly, I somehow understand her she was brainwashed since a kid by traditionalist "muslims" and, as she told me, she doesn't want me to face Hell. That's allright, I told her the same about her, but I am her son, so basically, and that is her saying, she knows better on islam than I do.

Anyway, I tried to explain to her that shahr doesn't mean month, that she is basically following ahadith, that I have studied the quran on this matter, the Arabic language, and so on and so forth... nothing, as expected. Her reaction is still that of a nuclear warhead...
They even ask me "So tell me, if ramadhan is not in the quran, then is salat in the quran ? is hajj in the quran ?" And keep in mind that only my grandmother does the Sunni salat, goes to hajj and wear a headscarf, none of my parents (both in the 50's) do any of that... yet.
So I reply yes, but not in the way they practice it. As you may guess, it didn't get better, and apparently, I am inhabited by the devil himself... I mean, what an honor nope

But the worst is that she and my traditionalist grandmother (as well as my father) are following the ahadith literature without even knowing it I tell them they are following the ahadith of Bukhari and Co., but "No !" they say, "we are merely quoting the quran !" I mean... Really ?!
So I tell them that there is nowhere, in the 114 chapters of the quran, a description of the traditionalist salat (no rakka, no anything), and this is where you can measure the depth of their knowledge on the matter of islam which, as they themselves say, has been taught to them since their childhood according to them, the quran is not just 114 suras, but there is a lot more to it, many books as thick as the one I have (the quran). So I said I was right, they are following ahadith. Again, they replied in the negative, explaining to me, and fasten your seat belts, it is about to be epic "there is 60 hizbs that constitute the quran, not just 114 suras"

My reaction ? brickwall

I tried to explain to them what hizbs are. Care to guess their reaction ? Exactly, same as usual ignore
Oh and that I should consult a psychologist to get my brain washed elektro

My mom wants us (her and I) to go meet with the imam by tomorrow, so I ask him about salat in the quran, and so on. Because again, as they say, God has put imams and the likes in the position to enlighten us on the meaning of the quran I do not have the right to try to understand it by myself...

Well... usual traditionalist crap, right ?

Honeslty, I already know the imam won't be able to answer, that he will say "there is no description of the salat in the quran, but in the ahadith..." anyway, I told her, I do not follow the clergy... but does she care ?

So brothers and sisters, what should I do about this situation ? And keep in mind this is mostly about the coming "month of ramadhan" that they absolutly want me to do as usual. Their reactions just give me the chills and I do not know how to deal with them or their ignorance (I tried to ignore them on that matter, but you may know that most warheads are target-tracking missiles, so...)

Peace !

Peace Ezio
Sei Italiano?

On one hand I sympathize with you regarding your parents opposing you and supporting traditions and ahadith. I have gone through similar things with parents and Sunni "friends".
But on the other hand I am left wondering why in the world would you disclose that to your parents, if you are not going to do it then do so in a private matter and avoid confrontation and conflict, sneak your meals in your room and etc..

Also though, I think you have taken it for granted that Ramadhan is being observed in the wrong month, and you are also taking for granted that shahr does not mean month.

You are going to have to clarify for me what you think the exact right time for Ramadhan is and what you think shahr means

Thanks