5:38: Amputation of hands in the afterlife?
-
Tis is very good, reel, it puts in real perspective the famous "cut the thieves hands".
If the cut the hands were to be taken not as an idiom, but as a physical deed, your perspective might make sense, because cuttin the hands would indeed be contradictory with what goes before and after.
However if the "cut the hands" is taken as an idiom -one more of the many idioms involving hands- the perspective we get in those ayas goes very much with te sense "cut their means of stealing", take from them the capacity to steal, because obviously God is keeping for himself the handing out of hells and other punishments. Nowadays puunishment is practically the alpurpose imprisonment, but probably God, being wise and all powerful can give to each transgressio the appropriate correcting penalty. What would it be for the thieves? I don't know, may be to have their roperty snatched by others over and over again?
I have always agreed with the idiom. The physical one never made sense to me because this is what Pharaoh used to do (2649). It would be hard for me to believe that Allah would enforce it as legal for humans to do.
in my childhood my teachers use to told me the punishment of thief is get their hands cut..
but i didnt get that logic, i asked from one of my teacher and sister they told me a hadith inn which peophet is claiming to get the hand cut of women , and u must cut it becoz if my daughter fatima would be here the punishment is same...
rotfl there is another hadith in which Bukhari permits stealing.
Narrated
Aisha Hind bintUtba said, "O Allah's Messenger Bukhari (ﷺ! Abu Sufyan is a miser and he does not give me what is sufficient for me and my children. Can I take of his property without his knowledge?" The Prophet Bukhari(ﷺ said, "Take what is sufficient for you and your children, and the amount should be just and reasonable. http//sunnah.com/bukhari/69/14
Perfect for an article with the title How to steal in Islamic wayonce a women saw my mother in hospital and ask the money for her kid ,, she told to my mom somebody steal the milk and she need to feed her kid ,, is it a stealing,, theifs never steal the milk ,, how helpless she was she come to my mom,, but suddenly i started thinking abiut the oother women who steal the milk ,, she was more helpless than her,,,
at that day i started research on correct principal of theft punishmentfirst case in the light of quran come in front of me in the shape of joseph and benyameen event where the punishment of thief is discussed..
and i realise theft is same kind of sin like speaking lie doing dishonesty with job, being lazy in duties that affect other people rights,, stealing is also this kind of thing ,,
Both poverty and extreme wealth can lead to theft and other criminal activities. One does it for food and the rich one does it because he is never satisfied with what he has.
If we follow what is in the Quran theft should decrease and when I say that I mean promotion of education, moral obligations, doing good for the community, allowing people to feel responsible for their deeds, helping improve lives, etc. I see it working in some American cities. I those places, you can leave your car unlocked for days without worrying about someone stealing it. It doesn't even matter if it does not have anti theft system. You can even keep your house door unlocked. No one is going to enter to steal anything.
no come to the punishment point stealing a thing by force is called dacoity not robbery like on a gun point,, if law decide some punishment for this we should follow law,,, but not a barbarian law what practise in saudia,,, saudia is the only country where this law apply
this law is not a law of quran but a law of fabricated hadith or i dnt even know its hadith or not becos my sister and my teacher was unable to provide me the reference of that hadith...
we cant give lisence to cut the hands of thief on the basis of ambigious history records..nice points reel
Thanks imrankhawaja. What you said about robbery is what got into my mind some hours ago. I was thinking about the difference between theft and robbery.
Peace reel
I think you might be reading too much into it.
Maybe or maybe not. I am still trying to figure out whether I am reading it right.
Although, you make an interesting case, this interpretations would steer from assuming the believers are to punish thieves in this life and it would deprive a society with the authority to deal with crime theft. I think that would be more problematic.
Naaah, stealing is wrong and punishable, but the sectarian version of cutting off hands seems too extreme. I usually went with the idiom mentioned by Huruf because it made sense. But then rereading the verses got me into what you described below
I am not sure if it is too convincing of an argument for the fact that, why is this specific punishment for this specific sin the only one being highlighted here?
It would seem if that were the case a bit out of the ordinary. Because the prior verses were referring to the disbelievers and Hell.
Although a thief may have wronged herself/himself it does not necessarily make them disbelievers. Not every transgressor is a disbeliever. Although continuous transgression without repenting may lead to disbelief. (But every disbeliever is a transgressor).
So I think from 537 to 538 we have a slight shift in subject matter.
I think 539 is saying to repent from leading such a self-destructive lifestyle which is wrapped around following one's own desires.
The punishment is still Hell.
Anyway, just my 2 cents!http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608169.msg382178#msg382178
Your explanation about the punishment makes sense.
The problem I am seeing is in
But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.539Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.540
Another thing which struck me is the absence of demand for witness.
-
I think that it is about the principle to be set, ot the particular application of the principle. And the preceedig and continuing ayas what are telling us to not forget what we are aiming for we are not aiming to supersede God hndig out punnishments, but to protect society from the evil of theft, not to become cruel or arrogant. Provided it does what it can to prevent theft if must also be ready to pardon those who reform, and let God the job of being absolutely just.
Salaam
-
in my childhood my teachers use to told me the punishment of thief is get their hands cut..
but i didnt get that logic, i asked from one of my teacher and sister they told me a hadith inn which peophet is claiming to get the hand cut of women , and u must cut it becoz if my daughter fatima would be here the punishment is same...
i start thinking again on one side ,, Allah is suggesting us eye for an eye but its better if you forgive..
and on other hand this common mistake of stealing is everywhere.. anywayonce a women saw my mother in hospital and ask the money for her kid ,, she told to my mom somebody steal the milk and she need to feed her kid ,, is it a stealing,, theifs never steal the milk ,, how helpless she was she come to my mom,, but suddenly i started thinking abiut the oother women who steal the milk ,, she was more helpless than her,,,
at that day i started research on correct principal of theft punishmentfirst case in the light of quran come in front of me in the shape of joseph and benyameen event where the punishment of thief is discussed..
and i realise theft is same kind of sin like speaking lie doing dishonesty with job, being lazy in duties that affect other people rights,, stealing is also this kind of thing ,,
no come to the punishment point stealing a thing by force is called dacoity not robbery like on a gun point,, if law decide some punishment for this we should follow law,,, but not a barbarian law what practise in saudia,,, saudia is the only country where this law apply
this law is not a law of quran but a law of fabricated hadith or i dnt even know its hadith or not becos my sister and my teacher was unable to provide me the reference of that hadith...
we cant give lisence to cut the hands of thief on the basis of ambigious history records..nice points reel
good and comprehensive post , Imran Bhai bravo
instead of discussing about the law why don't we discuss about the crime
for instance ,few years earlier ,there was a train accident in India and lot of people died . when the relatives of the victims went to the spot in search of dead bodies of their kith and kin ,policemen at that site were demanding bribe in order to show their dead bodies.what you suggest here imran , leave them with a hug or to be more barbaric than they were at that site
not only there ,even in hospitals right now , in India ,one should bribe to get the dead bodies from the mortuary
why this is happening in the non barbaric law , imranok, one more indecent
As per CBI, about US$500 billion is there in Swiss. this money belongs to the corrupt Indian politicians who deceived their voters and looted the money .note that it was earned in the name of welfare schemes to the poor .tell me what should be the punishment for these people .leave them with a hug and say "sir , i am not a barbarian " or cut the hands of these people and make it as a example to others so that no one should ever dare to try this crime again -
good and comprehensive post , Imran Bhai bravo
jazak Allah and thanx my brother ,
instead of discussing about the law why don't we discuss about the crime
for instance ,few years earlier ,there was a train accident in India and lot of people died . when the relatives of the victims went to the spot in search of dead bodies of their kith and kin ,policemen at that site were demanding bribe in order to show their dead bodies.what you suggest here imran , leave them with a hug or to be more barbaric than they were at that site
not only there ,even in hospitals right now , in India ,one should bribe to get the dead bodies from the mortuary
why this is happening in the non barbaric law , imranok, one more indecent
As per CBI, about US$500 billion is there in Swiss. this money belongs to the corrupt Indian politicians who deceived their voters and looted the money .note that it was earned in the name of welfare schemes to the poor .tell me what should be the punishment for these people .leave them with a hug and say "sir , i am not a barbarian " or cut the hands of these people and make it as a example to others so that no one should ever dare to try this crime againmy brother these are not laws these are the miss use of law governors or the responsible people that governs the law of state,
when these law comes in the hand of a person who is dishonest and they take advantage of people needs,, let them do what God provides them, its their test infact but they are not aware , your actions eyesight understanding reaoning hearing , speaking all of these things included in test and we are accountable for our deeds in this world and herafter is definate..these people you will find everywhere its impossible to make a system of this worldy life balanced ,, if allah wanted everybody was on strait path but he authorise you to decide for urself which path attracts you. its we who choosse our paths for life .
in pakistan every police officer take bribe.. but nobody can do nothing law is in their hands..its doesnt mean police officer is allowed to take bribe ,, infact if somebody reports to superiors he can lose his job,.. and everywhere vice verse is happpening ,
india pakistan nigeria america ,, in the field of law ,drugs , trafficking of human, but states are involve in it there is advantage of state in it,, so state also protects these law makers.
even i was watching a movie on a true documentry in which a group of people kidnap the public and operate them taking their kidneys and sale it to the needy ,,, it was disgusting ... if we think from our point of view we will never do that ,, but people are doing it
let ALLAH deal with them ,, soon they will realise they are stuck in some puzzle -
I think that it is about the principle to be set, ot the particular application of the principle. And the preceedig and continuing ayas what are telling us to not forget what we are aiming for we are not aiming to supersede God hndig out punnishments, but to protect society from the evil of theft, not to become cruel or arrogant. Provided it does what it can to prevent theft if must also be ready to pardon those who reform, and let God the job of being absolutely just.
Salaam
I quite didn't understand. Would love some details. I would like to look at other verses where certain punishments are cited as legal for humans to perform. So I'll be back to this thread after the research. But if anyone has anything that can refute or add to it please feel free to do it so we can learn from each other.
-
Wakas, what's the meaning of plural IQTA?
I forgot to mention one thing. From observation, I have realized that physical cutting off the hand may not be the only way Allah can make one amputee. Anything is possible by him. I am still undecided about the verse. Prophet Joseph's story contains a stealing incident. I have been rereading it.
-
You seemed to argue that the alleged punishment in 538 (whatever it is) is referring to the next life, so I asked how do you explain the grammar of the word
so YOU iqta
i.e. YOU the audience do whatever iqta meansForget about the meaning of iqta for now, explain the address to you (i.e. the audience) strongly implying they do iqta, not in the next life.
-
Just a reminder bro Wakas, I ain't arguing for it. I want someone to look into it. Anything is possible by Allah. It does not need to happen in the next life. I should have clarified it better. Sorry about the confusion.
Anyways, I get what you are saying. I have taken it as "so" cut off. As for "ya", at this time, I am taking it as the thief because of verses like this
And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, "Be apes, despised."And We made it a deterrent punishment for those who were present and those who succeeded and a lesson for those who fear Allah .265-66
Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse,Except for those who repent and correct themselves and Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together, make evident. Those - I will accept their repentance, and I am the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.2159-161
-
Tis is very good, reel, it puts in real perspective the famous "cut the thieves hands".
If the cut the hands were to be taken not as an idiom, but as a physical deed, your perspective might make sense, because cuttin the hands would indeed be contradictory with what goes before and after.
However if the "cut the hands" is taken as an idiom -one more of the many idioms involving hands- the perspective we get in those ayas goes very much with te sense "cut their means of stealing", take from them the capacity to steal, because obviously God is keeping for himself the handing out of hells and other punishments. Nowadays puunishment is practically the alpurpose imprisonment, but probably God, being wise and all powerful can give to each transgressio the appropriate correcting penalty. What would it be for the thieves? I don't know, may be to have their roperty snatched by others over and over again?
Salaam
Salamun alaikum.
My understanding is 100% aligned with what Huruf says above to be the meaning of the phrase - "cut their means of stealing". The word Yad (translated as "hand" has been used numerous times in Qur'an and in majority of cases it implies the "means / power / authority", not physical hand.
The essence of the verse is that as part of establishing governance, we must implement a system of judicial process that acts as an "effective deterrent" to the crime of stealing / robbing; and whoever is convicted of such crime - his ability to commit the same crime again must be curtailed - unless he/she repents and reconciles. The goal is to protect the potential victims - not to torture the convict.
And yes, as brother Wakas points out the subject of the verb - plural YOU - does indicate that this is a command for the followers of the Qur'an to implement.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
we also use this same word in our daily commmunication,, for example,,
while playing game , we oftenly say . game is in my hands, (power of ruling game)
everything is in the hands of God, (access, authourity,powers, controlling)
give him a hand (help , support)
don have big hands so never mess with him (sources)so we can interpret the hands are thief here adresses the sources,powers,means.
Allah knows best -
Salamun alaikum.
My understanding is 100% aligned with what Huruf says above to be the meaning of the phrase - "cut their means of stealing". The word Yad (translated as "hand" has been used numerous times in Qur'an and in majority of cases it implies the "means / power / authority", not physical hand.
The essence of the verse is that as part of establishing governance, we must implement a system of judicial process that acts as an "effective deterrent" to the crime of stealing / robbing; and whoever is convicted of such crime - his ability to commit the same crime again must be curtailed - unless he/she repents and reconciles. The goal is to protect the potential victims - not to torture the convict.
And yes, as brother Wakas points out the subject of the verb - plural YOU - does indicate that this is a command for the followers of the Qur'an to implement.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
ArmanThat's what I agreed with also. But what do you think about the absence of demand for witness/testimony? I must add that the idea of testimony in the case of theft is found in the story of Joseph.
-
Question reattachment
?
Is that allowed or does the cutter keep the hand?what he will gona do with the hand ,lol
-
That's what I agreed with also. But what do you think about the absence of demand for witness/testimony? I must add that the idea of testimony in the case of theft is found in the story of Joseph.
I do not think that the fact that the Qur?an does not mention testimony in tis case mens it is not required. It must be understood that all rules required for the ascertaining of the crime and the culprit must be followed, be it evidence of any kind be it witnesses.
The requirement of witnesses in the Qur'an is mentionned only for the sake of trade and inn 24 for avoiding landering and gossiping, and in 4.15 to allow coertion to take women who make a practice of indecency off the street. In those cases witnees, four in fact, are required not as proof of a crime but as a requirement to prevent abuse of women in 4.15 and to prevent slandering, mostly of women also, in 24. It is clear in those two instances that no other kinnd of proof will be admitted. In 4.15 the community is required to ring the four witnesse in 24 nnobody is asked to look for witnesses least of all the community bust the person who accuses must make sure that he or she brings the witnesses.
To proove theft it is understood that the general requirements for ascertaining any crime will have to be followedand and that a thorough investigation will be done with the best mens vailable.
Salaam
