How We Could Eradicate And Fight The Religious Racism & Hate???
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In case it will makes you feel better.
I am very sure that the religion of Islam is a man made doctrine created with political domination and imperialism as goal.
Just like the (majority) of any other religion.I do the daily gymnast (if required, good for the flexibility of your muscle and joint), fast (very good spiritual exercise) and go to Makkah if a family member asked for my accompaniment, yet I don't or never see it as "obligation" as I was made / told to view it to be..
I see it merely as doing the "tradition".. just because I was born in such cultural context...The author / inventor of Islam religion has created a comprehensive mechanism of control to ensure every sheep stay within the flock.
I don't know where you live, I do understand that it can be dangerous on some countries when you become an "apostate" / "murtad" from the religion of Islam. The penalty is DEATH by STONING.As such, if you are living in such country, I advise you to not leaving the religion of Islam.
The death penalty is NECESSARY to ensure that people will always stay afraid to THINK CRITICALLY about the doctrine of Islam.
As thus the (fallacious) doctrine can always survive..http//elsasblog.com/image-files/yusuf-al-qaradawi-apostasy-punishment-death.jpg
Yes, RELIGIO FACISM is very common among muslims..
It's caused by multiple factors, among others is the sense of "inferiority" within today's world..
Such symptom is called "Inferiority Complex". Any form of "arrogance / supremacy" usually caused by a sense of inferiority within.. as can also be observed within the German society post World War I which gives birth to Nazi's Facism.They're feeling very 'insecure' which cause sensitivity when they encounter different ideas on the issues which they themselves are not very sure.. Yet they're told to believe on certain things by their "Mind Master" (Clerics, Ulema, Parents) which they MUST accept otherwise they're qualified to be an apostate.
Such mentality is not exclusively exist within religion of Islam, it also exist in any other doctrinal religion. (ie Christianity, Judaism)
How to change the mentality?
A very good question, unfortunately there isn't any silver bullet to such problem.
What I do tried is to show 'logical fallacies' within the religion of Islam itself and also to tell others about the history on why and how the religion of Islam get invented. Sometimes to ease the resistance I first show the "logical fallacies" within other religion before showing them that such fallacies also exist in your own religion.But... I never asked them to convert or uncovert from their religion of Islam..
So far.. I've been quite successful with those who are close to me.. they're still Sunnis (And I don't mind it at all) yet they've accepted that their own doctrine is not infallible, there are fallacies and they are tolerant to other ideas. And they never judge other human being merely based on their religion / cult / doctrinal ideas.
Thank you for your help. Lol, it is good that to find a way to live with these traditions. You are so lucky to live in a more open minded community, do they know that you do these rituals just to share them these traditions and not because of a religous reason?
In the 2 countries i live in, my family members, my friends and my colleagues always insist on me to practice these practices if i pretended that i forgot or i actually forgot. Even when someone of them notices this change they try to make sure that i'm still muslim -_- and i'm tired & get sick of pretending and making excuses for them all the time.
I agree with you regarding the causes of religious discrimination in Islamic or middle east countries. I think the main problem that make it worse is when they deny its existence or just try to hide the truth which make it even worse and harder. I agree with you about the inferiority complex and insecurities Muslims have, as you can read in this post, some people started to defend of Islam in spite i know that they know that religious discrimination is one cause of many causes that destroy Islamic and middle east countries currently.
I like your strategy in the logical fallacies with them, they'll absolutely feel more comfortable after you acknowledge the negatives in the other religions. Though, i think teaching people to be open minded in areas regarding the beliefs of others will help too, do you think there is any way to teach people how to stop worrying and being anxious about others beliefs and trying to control or enforce the others, even if this person could your spouse or child?
Well, last point it is not someone's business to control or judge on others believe, i don't control or even care about others believes and i expect others to do the same with me. So your reaction with your family for me is the normal and usual reaction.
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Firstly. read my post again , i was advocating forums are the workshop for racism .you will find racism in every religious forum,but i was not blaming salafism or Christianity or JAQs
Secondly,as per you signature and your opinion regarding GOD ,it is evident you are in a confused state .yet you want find fault with your family members or at least you are not comfortable with them in religious issues.i wonder how you came to the conclusion that your family members are at fault when you yourself don't know about your faith .you are here because majority of people here are against the stereotype Islam .Note that "majority" ,this is what counts as the base of racism . if your type of people in your country had been in the majority then your family members might have been at the receiving end .
honestly i don't believe in apostasy .particularly in Islam .they may go against stereotype Islam but once the faith in ALLAH subhanvatala enters in to the mind and heart it never fades .only morons and imposters can became apostate .do you want to know about tolerance .......read the post made by jafar
This is called love and tolerance .even if you are not be comfortable with other people ides but if pretending as accepting them make them feel happy and maintains the decorum of the family and society then whats wrong in it . this is called tolerance .first decide your faith then point your fingers on others
Mmm, i think that you represent the typical religous discrimination by your reply, please have a look at what you've wrote and see how much hate and discrimination you put in there!!!
You are mocking me just because i do n't follow a religon or specificly "Islam"!!!! You think that i am inferior to you just because i'm confused in the area of religons, well i think it is none of your business if i follow a religion or not, i have enough people to "tolerate" in my life, i don't need to add more.
"only morons and imposters can became apostate ."
REALLY??? you should be ashamed of yourself and your language!!! you are the exact type of people who are discriminate others depending on their religions. I won't accept any further INSULT in my thread!!!
2nd point, there is a huge difference between tolerance and racism, well if i tolerate and accept others no matter what they believe in, i would expect the same acceptance from them, otherwise it will be discrimination, racism and even fascism!!!!
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Peace seeking,
I'm very sorry that you're having to deal with this. I can't imagine. I watched this video last night (https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-x5mEVLxk). It's long, but I personally found it insightful and thought-provoking. You may find that he brings up some points that are relevant to your situation. At one point he mentions that in the West people are more civil in debates. Now, I can't say if this is true or not, but he does mention after, that the debates he's seen have featured people who attack others personally, instead of attacking their beliefs.
In my view, in order for a society to be tolerant, people need to make this distinction. They need to distinguish between a person themselves (who they are, their personality, what they do, their relationships with people, etc.) and their beliefs. Beliefs are personal.
People also need to think about if it really matters, if it will really affect them. You don't feel like you can associate yourself with Islam anymore. That's fine. That's a decision you made, and it's a decision that people around you are living with, whether they know it or not. I feel like people take things way too personally sometimes. They care way too much about something, when it's not worth the effort. Your decision to leave Islam completely shouldn't be of anyone's concern (only using the word "concern" for a lack of a better word, forgive me), but your own. The choices you make, and I make, and your family makes, and everyone makes, will ultimately only be between them and God.
So many times I see people arguing over the weirdest and stupid topics. I don't understand it. Is the argument worth the consequences? In the end, will that argument really matter? It means nothing. So why are we all wasting our breath?
why do people think they are responsible of the others beliefs and they have to judge them?
Regarding your family, I can imagine they would feel responsible if you come clean about your beliefs because families/parents/guardians/etc. often see it as their responsibility to raise their child(ren) in the "right way." (I say this in quotation marks because the "right way" is subjective.) If a child is raised by parents who try to teach him or her to be a good moral person, these parents may feel that they failed parenthood if their child grows up to become a criminal or murderer, for example.
Also, people don't like what they don't know or what they don't understand. A lot of us are scared of the unknown. If your belief has been central to how your family sees you, and if you came clean about what you believe (or don't believe), they may feel as if they don't know you anymore (or at least they won't know what they can expect from you). They may have the perception that their family is breaking down because one person doesn't believe. I can't say for sure, as I've never been in this situation.
We like to be right. We like for people to see us in a good light, and see our views as correct. Also, concerning a specific religion, your family/friends/etc. may believe that you will go to hell if you don't believe in that religion. They will be fearful for your fate in the next life and hence try to convince you as much as possible that you are on the wrong path.
Just my two cents.
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I'm talking about the people i live with in home and work, and the countries i live in which are Muslims and 2 Islamic country!!!
If it was that easy, i won't bothering myself in writing a long post like that!
The discrimination is not limited to Islamic countries though.
But I am not sure where your fault is. You are just going through a phase. Tell them that you need a break from acrobatics to figure things out. How can this be wrong? And from the tone of your explanations, it doesn't seem like you want to just do whatever you want for which your parents need to worry.
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Mmm, i think that you represent the typical religous discrimination by your reply, please have a look at what you've wrote and see how much hate and discrimination you put in there!!!
world is a tough place my friend ...you have to taste every thing ....you cannot expect sweet ...goody goody things always
You are mocking me just because i do n't follow a religon or specificly "Islam"!!!! You think that i am inferior to you just because i'm confused in the area of religons, well i think it is none of your business if i follow a religion or not, i have enough people to "tolerate" in my life, i don't need to add more.
Sorry ..you have mistaken me...if that was the case i would have never given jafar as the best example of tolerance, even he seems to be in confused state and did not follow the religion that i belong
Btw who is asking you to tolerate me ...who am i to you ....burst out
i am ready to take, note that every one is supporting you here ...the situation is reverse here.assume that i am your family and you want quench your thirst ....just tell me where i(assume that i am your family) am wrong and how you are correct
you the majority and i am aloneyou will never get a better platform than this to advocate your faith ...note that every one here is going to help you in this
come on ......line up your problems you face with your family
do you want to discuss here ...it is ok for me ...if you want to have that in a different thread ...even then i am ready
pl come out ....lets solve your riddle -
Thank you for your help. Lol, it is good that to find a way to live with these traditions. You are so lucky to live in a more open minded community, do they know that you do these rituals just to share them these traditions and not because of a religous reason?
Of course they know, they here means my close family members..
Because I tell them so...I have no problem celebrating Ramadhan just like I have no problem celebrating Christmas or Rosh Hashanah or Chinese New Year or other festivity.
This attitude might NOT be common to (more sectarian and more arrogant) western culture (middle east included).But I found that it's very common in the (non sectarian / less religious) east..
It's very normal to find a Chinese who celebrated christmas, chinese new year and Siddharta's birthday.. and nobody see it as 'strange' or accused him of being an "infidel" / "murtad" to his religion or tradition.The less religious one society is the better they are.. more humble.. more wise..
In the 2 countries i live in, my family members, my friends and my colleagues always insist on me to practice these practices if i pretended that i forgot or i actually forgot. Even when someone of them notices this change they try to make sure that i'm still muslim -_- and i'm tired & get sick of pretending and making excuses for them all the time.
If you don't want to do an activity better tell them as such..
I never attended Friday prayer, purely because I never get any enlightenment from attending such doctrinal session..
The same reason why I never attend any political campaign event...
Unless... my family member asked or need my accompaniment to ANY event.. I do it for them and they need me.. and not because I want to attend the session.. or to prove to anyone that I'm a member of any cult.Making sure you're still muslim? Just recite the shahada, there.. you're a muslim (again)..
That's the requirement to be muslim according to their own doctrine right?I agree with you regarding the causes of religious discrimination in Islamic or middle east countries. I think the main problem that make it worse is when they deny its existence or just try to hide the truth which make it even worse and harder. I agree with you about the inferiority complex and insecurities Muslims have, as you can read in this post, some people started to defend of Islam in spite i know that they know that religious discrimination is one cause of many causes that destroy Islamic and middle east countries currently.
Well said..
Truth doesn't need any protection, it just need to be told..
In contrast; lies need so many efforts, manipulation and protection to hide it..do you think there is any way to teach people how to stop worrying and being anxious about others beliefs and trying to control or enforce the others, even if this person could your spouse or child?
By making them less fanatics to their own religion..
The root cause which drive such attitude is; they feel insecure and unsure about their own belief..
Because they don't believe in their own belief, it was instilled upon them by somebody else. (clerics, ulema, sultan, caliph, king, parents etc..)
That'w why they get anxious and nervous when somebody said something which in contrary to their own belief..Example
Those who are dogmatized by others to think that the earth is flat will become anxious and angry upon hearing other differing opinion saying that the earth is not flat but round like a ball.
While..
Those who fell certain, through their own thinking that the earth is actually round like a ball.. will not become anxious or distress upon hearing other differing opinion saying that the earth is not round but flat.... They will merely say, "So be it then... if you truly belief that the earth is indeed flat"..Few more things..
Don't fight hate with hate.. fight it with love..
Don't fight racism with racism.. fight it with humanity..
Don't fight arrogance with arrogance.. fight it with humility..
Don't fight ignorance with ignorance.. fight it with understanding and knowledge.
Don't fight fanaticism with fanaticism.. fight it with tolerance..
And don't fight religiosity with religiosity.. fight it with secularity... -
salaam
it's simply a part of religion
if there unity there's racism.
if theres up theres down
the planet is round if their was only good and only up then it would not be round at all.
racism is unity and unity is racism it's like up in china is down in California (I didn't use lat. and long. in this expression)
don't think of it as a bad thing it just proves your religion is set in a real world a spherecial world
it turns and the ball you threw up in the air is what you threw down into the air....
...that's way it's hard to understand because we are not simply in the core of the earth picking angles
were on top and we all share one view the sky is up wherever we are even mining is not that complex yet -
As long as Jews, Christians and Muslims believe that you have to "believe' in certain dogmas to enter heaven, it's impossible to ever eradicate religious bigotry. According to Muslims, for example, billions of Buddhists, Hindus and Christians (who believe Jesus is God) will go to an "eternal Hell". It never occurs to them that they are only "Muslim" because they were born in some Arab country, Turkey, Pakistan or another "Muslim" country. If they had been born in Japan, they too would have UNDOUBTEDLY been a Shintoist like most Japanese. Belief/faith means absolutely nothing, since it is determined by where you were born.
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As long as Jews, Christians and Muslims believe that you have to "believe' in certain dogmas to enter heaven, it's impossible to ever eradicate religious bigotry. According to Muslims, for example, billions of Buddhists, Hindus and Christians (who believe Jesus is God) will go to an "eternal Hell". It never occurs to them that they are only "Muslim" because they were born in some Arab country, Turkey, Pakistan or another "Muslim" country. If they had been born in Japan, they too would have UNDOUBTEDLY been a Shintoist like most Japanese. Belief/faith means absolutely nothing, since it is determined by where you were born.
Very True..
I was thinking along the same line when I was a child attending a class in my Madrasa..
Looking back, I realized how they teach "religious facism" / "religious bigotry" at the earliest stage, to little children like I was. Even back then I questioned such ridiculous teaching, the teacher answered with a 'warning' that I shouldn't ever questioned such thing as it's part of "our aqeda" and we should help the "kuffar" to gain Allah blessing and paradise by converting them to Islam / spreading Islam to them.
Yet it doesn't stop me to think "What if I were born somewhere else or my parent is not Muslim?", "What happened to those who were born before Muhammad?".. they will be tortured in hell for eternity just because of it??? which later on shaped my (current) view.
Catholics has grown wiser, they rarely teach such bigotry now to their children.
Although they used to in the past.At one point (in the future) Muslim will also evolve to dump the bigotry and supremacist teaching..
What we can do now is at least to stop such bigotry / supremacist idea first to ourselves and then stop them to carry forward to our own children, stop the bigotry to spread to the future generation.
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Catholics has grown wiser, they rarely teach such bigotry now to their children. Although they used to in the past.
Hi Jafar,
I don't know about Catholics, but I know there are about 100,000,000 Evangelical fundamentalist Americans who want their "Armageddon" in the Middle East. That is one third of the American population who actually believe this, they are not less dangerous than ISIS...
At one point (in the future) Muslim will also evolve to dump the bigotry and supremacist teaching.
I hope so, because if we don't, the rest of the world will have to deal with us accordingly. There is no way whatsoever that we can defeat the rest of the world.
What we can do now is at least to stop such bigotry / supremacist idea first to ourselves and then stop them to carry forward to our own children, stop the bigotry to spread to the future generation.
Exactly... I don't have children, I'm not married and don't intend to, but if I had children, I would only teach them to be good to other human beings and that we are all equal. My "religion" is that you must be a good person, everything else I've called bullshit. Look at the world, all problems are due to lack of love, compassion, sincerity. There are billions of Muslim and Christians but this doesn't lead to peace whatsoever, on the contrary...
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100,000,000 Evangelical fundamentalist Americans
If you meant the Evangelical christians then know the money is talking. They get lots of money from Israel to promote zionist agenda which pretty much is an irony since Israel itself is depended on our aid. But yeah, I heard normal Americans saying the same. It was a little too scary to hear "why not just nuke the entire middle east and end the problem for good" over a starbucks coffee -\
they are not less dangerous than ISIS...
This is what came in my head when I heard that. I have traveled a lot. Never heard this as something normal in other countries....not even the racist middle easterns ever made such comment.
At one point (in the future) Muslim will also evolve to dump the bigotry and supremacist teaching..
Supremacist teaching will be replaced by another kind of supremacist teaching. Humans are fond of being supremacists.
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It was a little too scary to hear "why not just nuke the entire middle east and end the problem for good" over a starbucks coffee
Well, that is a pretty common everyday opinion. I have even heard my own father express that at times and he is not really some warmongering person. I suppose people are extremely tired of the unrest "down there" and think that a full wipe out of the whole region would be the only solution.
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Hi Jafar,
I don't know about Catholics, but I know there are about 100,000,000 Evangelical fundamentalist Americans who want their "Armageddon" in the Middle East. That is one third of the American population who actually believe this, they are not less dangerous than ISIS...
I doubted the 100 mill number.. they're much less than that in number..
And... decreasing.... Irreligion is on the rise in the US (and also on many other countries of the world)
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_StatesThe kuffar/infidel/apostate irreligious are rising rapidly and very soon will reach the 100 mill mark in the US alone..
Supremacist teaching will be replaced by another kind of supremacist teaching. Humans are fond of being supremacists.
Not necessarily, the germans and japanese, who used to be a supremacist fascistic society are generally more humble now, compared to the situation around 80-100 years ago..
What changes them?
A very hard lesson on humility.. (read being utterly humiliated and destroyed in WWII)This is a recurring pattern throughout the human history..
Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humbled themselves will be exalted
Matt 2312Muslim/Arabs/Jews is no exception, they had their lessons in the past (devastated by Roman, Mongols and Turks) and soon they will went through another round of lesson too.. which again make (or forced) them to be more humble..
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This is what came in my head when I heard that. I have traveled a lot. Never heard this as something normal in other countries....not even the racist middle easterns ever made such comment.
Yes, Evangelical Christian-Zionists are really some of the most evil and insane people on earth, definitely on par with wahabis/salafis. They would definitely kill millions for their God. In fact they are already doing it in the Middle East.
Supremacist teaching will be replaced by another kind of supremacist teaching. Humans are fond of being supremacists.
I'm happy to hear there are others who think like me. Yes, that is so true, people will, for example, worship their own race or some stupid ideology and even go to war over it. They will always find a reason to hate and demonize others. Lust for money, power and domination over others is of course the most important motive for such criminal and immoral behaviour. This is one thing that never changes.
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Well, that is a pretty common everyday opinion. I have even heard my own father express that at times and he is not really some warmongering person. I suppose people are extremely tired of the unrest "down there" and think that a full wipe out of the whole region would be the only solution.
True, but they don't say this about Israel, which is just as evil as Saudi Arabia.
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Muslim/Arabs/Jews is no exception, they had their lessons in the past (devastated by Roman, Mongols and Turks) and soon they will went through another round of lesson too.. which again make (or forced) them to be more humble..
I agree, Muslims probably have to experience much more suffering than they have so far in order to change their ways.
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Peace Jafar,
The less religious one society is the better they are.. more humble.. more wise..
Absolutely true.. is it a coincidence that the most religious countries in the world are the same countries where violence, racism, oppression, corruption and all sorts of immoral behaviour is the highest in the world?
I never attended Friday prayer, purely because I never get any enlightenment from attending such doctrinal session
I agree.. the most morally corrupt, backward and oppressive countries in the world are countries where people perform religious rituals the most, such as Saudi Arabia... generally speaking, the more religious a person becomes, the more a threat he becomes to his country and the world as a whole.
All those religious rituals they think will get them to eternal Paradise never leads to them becoming better human beings.. they don't become more moral or more humble people... those who behead innocent people fast and pray 5 times a day....
Making sure you're still muslim? Just recite the shahada, there.. you're a muslim (again)..
That's the requirement to be muslim according to their own doctrine right?This is another important point, it's so incredibly simple to enter Heaven according to the (ridiculous) Islamic doctrine. Just say "I believe in Allah and Muhammed is his Messenger" and in just 2 seconds you will secure a place in eternal Paradise. You can also decide to enter eternal Hell in only 2 seconds, by saying the opposite; "No, there is no God and Muhammed is not his Messenger". Then again you can secure your place in Heaven in 2 seconds without doing anything of value... by doing absolutely nothing of value, by contributing nothing to humanity, justice or peace in the world...
It doesn't matter how many people you oppress or murder, or how many good deeds you do, or don't do. The only thing that matters is blind "belief", which is something that has no benefit for anyone, for any living creature or anything. Why would it matter what I "believe" or not? Is God so insecure that He needs my belief in Him or else He will suffer? Is He so weak? Or is God a psychopath that He will burn all those who don't believe in Him in an eternal Hellfire? Billions of people are living in poverty, there are so many wars, suffering, destruction of the environment and so many other much more important things that we must work to solve. But all those don't matter according to Muslims... just believe in God and pray 5 times a day and you will enter Heaven.. nothing else matters.
By making them less fanatics to their own religion.. The root cause which drive such attitude is; they feel insecure and unsure about their own belief..
Because they don't believe in their own belief, it was instilled upon them by somebody else. (clerics, ulema, sultan, caliph, king, parents etc..)
That'w why they get anxious and nervous when somebody said something which in contrary to their own belief..I think you are right again.. Because I used to personally get angry when people said "bad things" about some verses in the Qur'an, for example... Deep down I knew they were right, but I could not let go, I could not admit the horrible truth. I was also very afraid to become a murtad /apostate. I thought I would go to hell, if I had doubt about even a single letter in the Qur'an... because we have been so brainwashed and terrorized from childhood into believing dogmas...
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Hello Recluse,
I suppose my father included Israel as well though. I also think a lot of people do not care whether you bomb Israel either, just wipe out the troubling nations where Israel is included. The majority of these people are not serious about their comment though I think but they speak jokingly "might be best if they just nuke the place". It is the same as saying "there is no hope for these people to solve anything".
Most people agree it is religion which is a problem for the unrest in these countries too.
It is hard to convince these religious nuts that they are wrong about what they put their faith in. It is hard to convince them that jihad is not about forcing your faith on others when a grand deal of their religious scripture speaks of religious indoctrination. In chapter 9 of Quran it is quite explicit, kill them until they perform salat. There is much encouragement to go to war about what you believe in and the interpretation of what is a valid reason is vague.
And Quran does also (in its sectarian interpretation) say the prophets made their children to observe salat, so there is religious indoctrination of the offspring too. The message is that you should make everyone follow this interpretation of Islam.
The only way would be convincing them that their scripture is wrong (even if it is by interpretation). They would need to change their whole perception of what God/Rabb is.
Be well
Amenuel -
Hello Recluse,
It is hard to convince these religious nuts that they are wrong about what they put their faith in. It is hard to convince them that jihad is not about forcing your faith on others when a grand deal of their religious scripture speaks of religious indoctrination. In chapter 9 of Quran it is quite explicit, kill them until they perform salat. There is much encouragement to go to war about what you believe in and the interpretation of what is a valid reason is vague.
Hi Emanuel.
That's right, in my opinion there can only be two possibilities; either the Qur'an is entirely man-made (pure fabrication), or most things in the Qur'an are not to be taken literal at all due to being historical-regional-cultural relating only to the situation of the Arabs of 1400 years ago. I think the latter is true. The only truly universal notions or rules in the Qur'an are not to kill, steal, lie etc. Isn't it telling to note that the most oppressive, immoral and backward country in the world is the country where Islam originated? If this doesn't make people think then probably nothing will.