Can we have concensus?
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Peace Comrox,
Of course you may...
I still believe in one Creator based on the evidence I see in the DNA, the laws of the universe and so many other things (too many to mention here), but I have come to the conclusion that all God wants from us humans is to be good and just and that all human beings are equal. I also believe that probably there must be some form of punishment for evil people who murder, invade, plunder, rape etc. But I no longer believe in organized religions claiming that in order to be saved from "eternal Hell" you must join their exclusive "club".
Peace Recluse,
Very wise words. I agree with you; I don't believe in organized religion either. Thank you for sharing.
@Arman - Your original post is beautifully worded and I agree with it as well.
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Salam Arman,
Just wanted to mention this very common and misunderstood slave-master concept in the Qur'an. I don't believe that we are slaves of God nor that God wants us to be His slaves. These terms should be understood in its proper historical-cultural perspective when human relations were that of master and slave. Especially in Arabia but also in Rome, Persia and so on. The language and rhetoric of the Qur'an is largely directed at those Arabs of 1400 years ago. I mean it is directly related to how those Arabs in that era and region thought, and entirely suited to their socio-economic-cultural situation and understanding. Sorry my English is far from perfect, I hope you understand what I was trying say..
Salam Recluse.
Leaving the Qur'an aside for a moment, even if I contemplate from an independent perspective - I have not caused my birth into this world. I have not chosen my parents - nor my friends and relatives and society - nor even my race or species! The schools and institutions I attended were all chosen because of situational demand. I know I own nothing. Everything is owned by my Master who is running the show. Even my body I don't own. If my Master wishes my heart would stop beating this very moment, OR my body or part of it can be paralyzed. It is not at all a matter of whether God wants us to be His slave or not - it is what it is. Just like the characters in a novel are slave to the novelist - we are slave to the One who has set up this whole phenomenon of physical existence and created us as pockets of consciousness to experience His creation. There is simply no other way. So, I am not reluctant to recognize myself as slave to my Master. Even my thoughts and emotions are synchronized with the events in the outside world upon which I have no control. If my Master willed I could have been born as a crippled child in a penniless family. If He willed from that position I could have conquered the world. Everything in the heavens and earth - from the mighty stars to the tiny atoms - are all slave to the Master of the universe - willingly or under compulsion. Well! For my Master is the creation and the command ? blessed is God the Master of the universe.
Thus, I humbly submit to my Master by upholding my sense of right and wrong that He has bestowed me. If my Master does not guide me I have absolutely no chance. God is your Master and my Master. Let us be slave to Him. That is the straight way.
Regards,
Arman
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Your perception is flawed, Arman. It is logically impaired. I mean it does not matter if you know of right or wrong because it does not really matter as God controls everything. This is the same flaw as in FreedomStands perception.
You have more control than in a novel and it is more like you are a player in the game world of a video game. You still are exposed to the programming of the game, but you choose what to do with the situation at hand. You are pretty much on your own and must use your own willpower to steer right in the world in order to reconcile with your Rabb and even then you are a person of your own.
Following the directives of Rabb you do for your own sanity in order not to succumb to your own flesh of the world, becoming obsessed with the features of the game world and stuck therein. It would be like you were cursed to play the same game over and over again each day and never do anything else ever. Almost like you were once a player but sucked into the screen and placed for real inside the game.
Be well
Amenuel -
Your perception is flawed, Arman. It is logically impaired. I mean it does not matter if you know of right or wrong because it does not really matter as God controls everything. This is the same flaw as in FreedomStands perception.
You have more control than in a novel and it is more like you are a player in the game world of a video game. You still are exposed to the programming of the game, but you choose what to do with the situation at hand. You are pretty much on your own and must use your own willpower to steer right in the world in order to reconcile with your Rabb and even then you are a person of your own.
Following the directives of Rabb you do for your own sanity in order not to succumb to your own flesh of the world, becoming obsessed with the features of the game world and stuck therein. It would be like you were cursed to play the same game over and over again each day and never do anything else ever. Almost like you were once a player but sucked into the screen and placed for real inside the game.
Be well
AmenuelSorry I disagree with your understanding above. I do not will except my Master wills. It is like the beauty of rose. Do we perceive a rose as beautiful because we perceive it as such or because the rose is beautiful by its own right? The answer is - both is true. The perception of beauty and the existence of beauty are simultaneous events. Similarly our will and God's will dictating our will are simultaneous. Like opposite sides of the same coin.
We exercise our freewill to earn our destiny, not to create it. We earn our destiny because of what we deserve. Everything is from our Master - we control nothing.
I do not intend to push this into a debate. There are other dedicated threads for the topic of free will and predetermination. Please feel free to discuss there. However, this is a purely theoretical discourse, a correct conceptualization of the simultaneity of free will and predestination is not a prerequisite for a right guidance. What is important is that we understand we are fully accountable for the choices that we make - even if they are predetermined.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
However, this is a purely theoretical discourse, a correct conceptualization of the simultaneity of free will and predestination is not a prerequisite for a right guidance. What is important is that we understand we are fully accountable for the choices that we make - even if they are predetermined.
Yes, this is important to understand.
Peace -
But cannot you see the logical fallacy in saying that you are responsible for something that is predetermined?
I find the whole concept to be weak in logical integrity. It is as if the test loses the cause, too, and that it is redundant to even test anyone if it is also determined what will happen. The logic behind it sounds so distant.
No offense though, I am not responsible for anyone or forcing anyone to anything although I try to offer sound advice and arguments.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
Sorry to say, I find your argument very weak.
Do you know that each person is accountable for their own decisions? Then Predetermination is irrelevant.
Since each one of us are not "forced to make any decision" ,why blame anything?
Say I went around telling people whether they will go to hell or heaven by making a 1 in 2 guess. Then it turns out that I was right on few, does that make me responsible for them? Will that make their test here void?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
My argumentation is weak, good logic? Cannot you see that your argumentation is logically weak?
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Peace Man Of Faith.
You still insist on your way!
Oh and you have not said why my argument is weak?
Anyway I am making a guess that you will go to heaven, If I am wrong blame me tomorrow at GOD s, then while you are at it, blame GOD for knowing where you are going to end up as well !!!
But of course there is no way of knowing the outcome of each other.
May GOD bless you and keep you away from "Gehennama"brother.
Peace. -
That is where your logic is failing. God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose. Why is it so hard to see that the predestination argument does not hold up?
Things can be predetermined, but they are not predestined. If Rabb determines something it is destined, but it was not predestined.
A person is responsible for themselves and they have caused themselves to do a certain deed and that deed was not predestined. Of course lifeless people are susceptible to prophetic determinations and could thus be mindlessly fulfilling it against their conscious will, but that is because they had failed to have an own independent soul identity but followed the drive of the flesh, the kind of programming of the world. It is important to stay strong and have a strong conscious awareness to avoid being shepherded by the wrong shepherd.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
You say, quote
God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose.
Sorry but my GOD is "All Knowing". Yes brother ,Knower of everything that exists.
Anyway, GOD knows what you are saying, be careful!
Try this
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/free-will-and-predestination/GOD bless you.
Peace. -
God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose.
Sorry but my GOD is "All Knowing". Yes brother ,Knower of everything that exists.
Anyway, GOD knows what you are saying, be careful!
What does MoF need to be careful about?
If there's a God then definitely He's all knowing...
Given He's all knowing, logically implied that all that has happened was happening 100% in accordance to His will..
As such, what MoF was saying and what you are saying and what I was saying it all happened in accordance to His will.. -
Peace Jafar.
We all need to be careful of what we are saying,in case we tell lies about GOD.
If people have nothing /no reason to be careful, then that is fine by me . They are free beings.
We all make mistakes and are not careful of what we say sometimes anyway.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
God is NOT knowing if you will fail or not, or else this show would not be in progress to begin with as everything would be redundant already, i.e. has no purpose. Why is it so hard to see that the predestination argument does not hold up?
Things can be predetermined, but they are not predestined. If Rabb determines something it is destined, but it was not predestined.
A person is responsible for themselves and they have caused themselves to do a certain deed and that deed was not predestined.
Be well
AmenuelHi,
I agree with you on this.
I believe God knows what you are doing now and what you are thinking now and what you are planning now etc but He does not know what you will think tomorrow, because you have not thought your thoughts of tomorrow yet. -
I believe God knows what you are doing now and what you are thinking now and what you are planning now etc but He does not know what you will think tomorrow, because you have not thought your thoughts of tomorrow yet.
) So you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
peace
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Peace Bender.
GOD knows the past , the present and the furture. If GOD knows what you did and what you are doing, then GOD also knows what you will do. As simple as that
7226GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace Bender.
GOD knows the past , the present and the furture. If GOD knows what you did and what you are doing, then GOD also knows what you will do. As simple as that
7226GOD bless you.
PeacePeace good logic,
I don't see how that statement could be inferred by everyone based on the verse you cited. 7226 only seems to be talking about how God knows the unseen.
) So you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
peace
That's a good question. It's so difficult to think beyond the constraints of time that are bound to us in this reality. If we try to think outside time, must one know everything? Or is it possible to know everything and nothing at the same time?
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That's a good question. It's so difficult to think beyond the constraints of time
that are bound to us in this reality. If we try to think outside time, must one know everything?
Or is it possible to know everything and nothing at the same time?We do have Quran Kareem to guide us.
He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king
coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly."As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them
with his transgression and disbelief.*"We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them.
Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their
treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things
you could not stand."Please read preceding verses for context.
peace
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) So you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
peace
Hi Hawk,
What is time according to you?
What is the purpose of His inspirations and messengers to you if He already knows what you will decide tomorrow?
Peace Bender.
GOD knows the past , the present and the furture. If GOD knows what you did and what you are doing, then GOD also knows what you will do. As simple as that
7226GOD bless you.
PeaceHi GL,
He knows the future of the things which He has predetermined/predestined.
The difference between us humans and other creatures is that we are not predetermined/predestined but that we have it under our own control, we are the authors of our own books.A nice example is the story of Lut's people. At some moment they were predetermined/predestined, if that happens then you are lost, even Ibrahim can not save you
A other example is Firaun, he was not yet predetermined/predestined when Musa was send to him.
2042Salaam,
Bender -
What is time according to you?
What is the purpose of His inspirations and messengers to you if He already knows what you will decide tomorrow?
Peace bender, you answer my question with a question? Could you answer my question first?
Do you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?