Personal Identity and the Soul
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Have?
It would be necessary to define soul. The question as posed sets as given tht indeed soul nd body are two separate things. It is aasumed that a body "has" a soul. nd that both things are separate independete things.
My ow feeling is tht I do not know how that works and that other people also do ot know. They just figure and make nice and seemingly logical assumptions.
So for any meaningful discussion difinition of soul first.
Hi,
RED Of course I only speculate what for me sounds most logical.
BLUE I do not have a definition but more what I understand under a soul.
That "thing" that gives a body life is for me the soul.
I have no idea how it "looks" like or what it is but for sure there is something that brings life to a body and at some moment that something leaves the body and then the body is considered dead.I think every human being is a unit, not dissociable into somthig that some call soul, but they could call it whatever, and body, which we think it is very clear because it is materially noticeable.
The unit between a soul and a body is called a human being or animal.
A body without a soul is not a human or animal but cadaver.
When someone dies and you stay in front of the dead body, we do not say he/she is a good person but he/she was a good person.
So for me a body is only like an avatar where a soul resides in.
The big question (at least for me) is what is a soul without a body?I think, if we are talking about the nafs, that we have better forget philosofies an Christian figurations and stick strictly to the Qur'an. If we are talking about a soul which is not the "nafs" the quran talks about we should define it.
We do not have to forget that if we r talkig not about the nafs but bout the soul, and we are indeed wanting the Qur'an to throw light we should give what we may consider the equivalent of soul in the Qur'an.Salaam
The problem with sticking to the quran is that no one here understands the quran. Everyone understands it in his way and thus it also comes down to philosophy.
Does the quran say according to you that the nafs is part of the body?
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Hi,
RED Of course I only speculate what for me sounds most logical.
BLUE I do not have a definition but more what I understand under a soul.
That "thing" that gives a body life is for me the soul.
I have no idea how it "looks" like or what it is but for sure there is something that brings life to a body and at some moment that something leaves the body and then the body is considered dead.The unit between a soul and a body is called a human being or animal.
A body without a soul is not a human or animal but cadaver.
When someone dies and you stay in front of the dead body, we do not say he/she is a good person but he/she was a good person.
So for me a body is only like an avatar where a soul resides in.
The big question (at least for me) is what is a soul without a body?The problem with sticking to the quran is that no one here understands the quran. Everyone understands it in his way and thus it also comes down to philosophy.
Does the quran say according to you that the nafs is part of the body?
Where does the Qur'an says that nafs is a part of something and the body is another part?
You are asking the same question as beefore and I answered it. Fromwhere in the qur'an it it inferred that th body is one thing and the nafs is another thing. The nafs is the person. How do you separate the body from somethign else that should be called a nafs or a soul ad that nobody can circumsribe nor define nor do anything with it.
On the other hand when the Qur'an speaks of how after being dead God will take exract us again... If it were merely the souls understood as somethig separate, wouldn't be they already there without need of being taken out?
My take, with all the uncertainty of lack of knowledge is that the nafs i not the soul understood as something eparate from hte body and istinct from it, but that it develops its being in different fields, physic, mental and spiritual, as a unit, that at some point, like snakes go into hibernation and and also shed their outer skins to get new ones, mankind develop and goes into hibernation and sheds a art of it, too tight for the enxt stage, and gets a new envelope but not one ade up but one developed accordign to the pattern set before, in its previous development "before death", which the Qur'an and all the knowing people tell us that it is not death, just like hibernation is not death for those who undergo it, it is a change of phase. and man is a unit not some clueless matching fo heterogeneous thingsThat is my take, for the moment, and as I repeat without pretending that it is any certainty, becaue neither I nor I think anybody here knows with certainty any of it, however I think if we uphold the Qur'an I would expect that any explation at least would make sense with it.
Salaam
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On the other hand when the Qur'an speaks of how after being dead God will take exract us again... If it were merely the souls understood as somethig separate, wouldn't be they already there without need of being taken out?
Just as we don't really understand what we are )body, soul, nafs ... ) I guess we also don't really know much about the events at and after death.
Also, what were we before we were born? The bodies didn't exist.
Peace
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Zulf,
We were/are a growing seed that last beyond the bodily on another plane of existence (often called dimension). The bodily clouds us from seeing our true selves.
Be well
Amenuel -
Also, what were we before we were born? The bodies didn't exist.
Very good question...
If there's a soul / nafs / atman then it must have existed even before it was born.
And also consider the fact that "time + space" itself is merely a 'creation'..By the way, I find it intriguing that "soul" in arabic (Nafs) and Sanskrit (Atman) has the same literal meanings "breath"..
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Just as we don't really understand what we are )body, soul, nafs ... ) I guess we also don't really know much about the events at and after death.
Also, what were we before we were born? The bodies didn't exist.
Peace
We don't know what happened before life, either. Although I like Amenuel's answer. I wonder how many believe that we've existed before this life.
I see atheists use that reasoning a lot to determine that there is no afterlife. As we didn't exist before we were born, they conclude, we cannot exist after we die. It seems many think all we are is just a body with a brain that thinks and forms connections with a memory, personality and thought pattern, and once we die, all that we are is gone.
That "thing" that gives a body life is for me the soul.
I have no idea how it "looks" like or what it is but for sure there is something that brings life to a body and at some moment that something leaves the body and then the body is considered dead.I wonder then, when does the soul "begin"? When does it start existing?
When we are conceived? When we are a viable fetus? When we are born? Before all that? But according to how I perceive that definition, a soul cannot exist before the body? (Correct me if you think I'm misunderstanding you, Bender.) So many questions. I don't think I have an answer to this right now. I'll have to think about it.
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Where does the Qur'an says that nafs is a part of something and the body is another part?
Salaam,
There are many verses were I find it unlikely that nafs is "body and soul" or a human being as we know it.
If the quran doesn't say that they are 2 entities then it does not mean they are 1 entity because there is per my understanding also not a verse where it states that they are 1 entity.I find this verse intriguing
3942
Especially the red part.btw I am also not sure nafs means soul.
You are asking the same question as beefore and I answered it.
hmmm, I thought this one was different.
Fromwhere in the qur'an it it inferred that th body is one thing and the nafs is another thing. The nafs is the person. How do you separate the body from somethign else that should be called a nafs or a soul ad that nobody can circumsribe nor define nor do anything with it.
I do not separate them but death separates them and life brings them together.
On the other hand when the Qur'an speaks of how after being dead God will take exract us again... If it were merely the souls understood as somethig separate, wouldn't be they already there without need of being taken out?
I do not really understand your question, can you give me the verse you are referring to.
My take, with all the uncertainty of lack of knowledge is that the nafs i not the soul understood as something eparate from hte body and istinct from it, but that it develops its being in different fields, physic, mental and spiritual, as a unit, that at some point, like snakes go into hibernation and and also shed their outer skins to get new ones, mankind develop and goes into hibernation and sheds a art of it, too tight for the enxt stage, and gets a new envelope but not one ade up but one developed accordign to the pattern set before, in its previous development "before death", which the Qur'an and all the knowing people tell us that it is not death, just like hibernation is not death for those who undergo it, it is a change of phase. and man is a unit not some clueless matching fo heterogeneous thingsThat is my take, for the moment, and as I repeat without pretending that it is any certainty, becaue neither I nor I think anybody here knows with certainty any of it, however I think if we uphold the Qur'an I would expect that any explation at least would make sense with it.
Salaam
BLUE In my view both body and soul evolve. The evolution of the body are the physical aspects and can be seen/measured by others. The evolution of the nafs is spiritual and can not be seen/measured by others except by Allah.
The other main difference is that the body is recyclable, after your death you the earth will swallow you and make from your body new products. After 1000 years there will be an apple with a little bit of your body and there will be a human being with a little bit of your body etc. The ultimate reincarnation. But the soul not. The soul belongs only to you (belongs to Allah) other will not have a share in your soul.
There are more things but I hope you will at least understand my point of view a little bit better now why I think they are 2 different things.RED yes I totally agree.
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Also, what were we before we were born? The bodies didn't exist.
Peace
According to the quran and my understanding of it, is that we were one soul, a unity, "waiting" for bodies to reside in.
This means in my view that every soul is in principle equal, because we are extracted from 1 soul and not from 2 different souls, that is because Allah is Just.
And because Allah is merciful He inspired the soul the direction to follow (huda Allah), this means He inspired the soul what is good and what is bad and that is what we will be judged of when we return to Him.Well of course this is how I see it at the moment, any correction or better understandings or different understandings or ideas or whatever are more then welcome.
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We don't know what happened before life, either. Although I like Amenuel's answer. I wonder how many believe that we've existed before this life.
What is existence? Our body for sure existed as that is just earth. As for our soul if it existed then we can never know this for sure as we do not have such a memory and we do not even know what a soul is, it will always be a believe.
I see atheists use that reasoning a lot to determine that there is no afterlife. As we didn't exist before we were born, they conclude, we cannot exist after we die. It seems many think all we are is just a body with a brain that thinks and forms connections with a memory, personality and thought pattern, and once we die, all that we are is gone.
atheists are dumb
The fact that they are alive is already more than enough prove that there is a "life" after death.
Atheists see every day, every second a new soul entering this world and one of those souls is their own and yet they think Allah is not capable. The question for atheist is how many signs do they want and what kind of signs do they want before they believe. In fact every sign they wish for, Allah already made it or made something similar or made something better but they do not reflect.I wonder then, when does the soul "begin"? When does it start existing?
When we are conceived? When we are a viable fetus? When we are born? Before all that? But according to how I perceive that definition, a soul cannot exist before the body? (Correct me if you think I'm misunderstanding you, Bender.) So many questions. I don't think I have an answer to this right now. I'll have to think about it.
RED when its existing is easy.
When it exactly starts (in human form) is imo not predictable, only Allah knows. No one cares about sperm but a killing a fetus is already very questionable, there must be a very good reason to do this. -
We don't know what happened before life, either. Although I like Amenuel's answer. I wonder how many believe that we've existed before this life.
Not all of us, this kid seems to remember what happened before his life..
Airplane Boy
https//youtu.be/Uk7biSOzr1kBut again... experiencing is believing..
Have anyone here tried "Past Life Regression" session?
I haven't but very interested to try..I see atheists use that reasoning a lot to determine that there is no afterlife. As we didn't exist before we were born, they conclude, we cannot exist after we die. It seems many think all we are is just a body with a brain that thinks and forms connections with a memory, personality and thought pattern, and once we die, all that we are is gone.
I don't see how this issue relate to Atheism..
There are many of those who don't believe in the existence of personal God who really believe in the existence of before-life and after-life..
Hundred of Millions of them..However I do agree that after Jafar (me) died.. Jafar no longer exist..
All the identities (social and personal identity such as name) attached to the persona Jafar no longer exist.. what's left is memory of his presence among the living.. Which also after some time will be forgotten..The same case goes with "Bender", "Comrox", "Man Of Faith" and billions of other identities..
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Old lexicons also say "distance" and "width". It is because Nafs is the growing "seed" of each person. It stays through life cycles. The state of our Nafs determines our growth at the time. Like I wrote, Nafs means morphologically "integrity forth (of) spirit".
That is a Semitic language feature.
If you speak of breath it is metaphorically related to how big your soul's breath is, i.e. how strong it has become.
Usually when the word is understood it is taken as "person" which is the everyday day usage linguistically, e.g. one's integrity and present being.
Be well
Amenuel -
We live in this earthly body, and after the body dies we depart. This Body has influence on the soul
and vice versa. It is the actor or the means of realizing our earthly physical and psychological needs
real or imagined and the are two intertwined and connected.The soul's journey begins in the womb then childhood then moves to young adulthood then adulthood
then to maturity then old age then death and finally to the hereafter. Some are cut short by Allah's leave
(may Allah guide us to paradise). IMHO."They ask you concerning the Ruh. Say 'It is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only
with my Lord. And of knowledge, you have been given very little."peace
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We live in this earthly body, and after the body dies we depart. This Body has influence on the soul
and vice versa. It is the actor or the means of realizing our earthly physical and psychological needs
real or imagined and the are two intertwined and connected.The soul's journey begins in the womb then childhood then moves to young adulthood then adulthood
then to maturity then old age then death and finally to the hereafter. Some are cut short by Allah's leave
(may Allah guide us to paradise). IMHO."They ask you concerning the Ruh. Say 'It is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only
with my Lord. And of knowledge, you have been given very little."peace
Let us be clear as to what we are talking about You, Hawk, seem to be peaking about the ruh, but all the time those writing in thi thread have been seakig about the nafs, or the soul and have een taking the nafs as the soul. So now
Which one are you taking as the soul, the naf or the ruh or nnonne of them and then what do you undertand by soul, by nafs an by ruh?
Salaam
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Here is an aya
7.57.
And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy until, when they have carried heavy rainclouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded.So "we bring forth the dead".
Wht is brought forth?
What those who say that the "body" and the "soul" are two separate units uphold is that what is dead is the body and the the soul has not died, somehow it has been liberated from the body. So what is brought forth here as well as in other ayas of the same import?
The body must be brought fourth if what they say is true. Bu if the body is brought forth, then it was not left behind forever as something that had forever fulfilled its funcion.
So what is brought forth?
Also proof from the Qur'an that the soul of each person existed before that person was conceived.
Another aya
7.25.
He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."Again what is it that will be brought forth?
Another aya
4.66.
And if We had decreed upon them, "Kill (uqtulu) yourselves (anfusakum)" or "Leave your homes," they would not have done it, except for a few of them. But if they had done what they were instructed, it would have been better for them and a firmer position.So what do they have to "uqtulu"?
Frankly, as I go along I see more and more questionable the existence of two separate things like body and soulfrom te qura'nic point of view. Of course, for our own use we speak of ourselves as if we are mde of different things, like the mind the emotions the limbs the organs the feelings, the passions but they are us, it is not some assemblage that the pieces could be dismounted.
Salaam
Salaam
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According to the quran and my understanding of it, is that we were one soul, a unity, "waiting" for bodies to reside in.
This means in my view that every soul is in principle equal, because we are extracted from 1 soul and not from 2 different souls, that is because Allah is Just.
And because Allah is merciful He inspired the soul the direction to follow (huda Allah), this means He inspired the soul what is good and what is bad and that is what we will be judged of when we return to Him.Well of course this is how I see it at the moment, any correction or better understandings or different understandings or ideas or whatever are more then welcome.
Seeing the ayas wich exlplin that in context I cannot see by any means that nafs here is what you call a soul. It is one kind of creature of which there were no sexes, from that unit it creates two distinct, each sex. That is visible even now in the bodies of each sex there are traits of the oher sex but atrophied and ineffective for reproductive purposes. That I think is truth for all mammals.
Salaam
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I find this verse intriguing
3942So we get a very clear pointer. But take a mentally ill person. You could say God has taken his or her judgement. Will it go back to the mentally ill personn or will it be kept from him or her till death?
This just to show that nafs even in this aya does not need to be something separate or excisionable from the person.
If we go back to snakes, when they hibernate where do their lives go?
Is life separate from the person fromthe body or the mind?
Thar faous "soul", do we get from te Qur'an any hint that when death comes the soul continues on her own before God "yakhruyuna" takes us forth from our death?
We know that thoe who die for God's sake are not death. So may be God takes them forth jus as they die...
As to dimensions... That is the question. We in this life are only capable of living in three dimensions. The fourth is already a lot of troubl for us. Matter is nothing but our inability to see beyond three dimensions, whereas beings in "higher" levels would be those who can perceive more dimensions.
In that sense, what would our bodies be if we become able to perceive more dimensions. Is not death that transition and therfore no mattr how in three dimensions our body might be destroyed perceiving other dimensions might make us see it and live it in a way that we are not able to conceive in our present limitation?
Salaam
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Peace huruf here I am talking about the soul
We live in this earthly body, and after the body dies we depart. This Body has influence on the soul
and vice versa. It is the actor or the means of realizing our earthly physical and psychological needs
real or imagined and the are two intertwined and connected.The soul's journey begins in the womb then childhood then moves to young adulthood then adulthood
then to maturity then old age then death and finally to the hereafter. Some are cut short by Allah's leave
(may Allah guide us to paradise). IMHO.We know that those who die for God's sake are not death. So may be God takes them forth jus as they die...
True, but as far as we can see their earthly bodies remain behind.
Could you or members give your understanding of 8/50, 6/93 and 79/1-79/3, 32/11? If not it's ok.
peace
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True, but as far as we can see their earthly bodies remain behind.
peace
That is right, "as far as we can see", but that really is not seeing much, and there are bodie that are destroyed, burned, for instance, again as far as we can see
But then, again, inthose so numerous ayas where God takes us out (yukhriju) again what is it that He takes out?And those ayas where he says He revives, what is it that He revives?
Could you or members give your understanding of 8/50, 6/93 and 79/1-79/3? If not it's ok.
8.50
Which arabic wordin he original do you say mean soul, because the usual translatio of soul as nafs cannot be since in the original there is no nafs, nor ruh, there are faces, no nufus or ruh.6.93 Here there is indeed the word anfusakum, which is usually tranlated by "yourselves" like when it is said uqutulu anfosakum, here it is the same it says agrijy anfosakum, "get yourelves out" Or if you prefer to stick to the souls, take your souls out. But then why choose to translate sometimes as yourselve and then when the "soul" urge cmes choose to translate takeout your souls. ?
In 79/1-79/3 there are no nafs at all, they are insertions made by the translators so I really can0t see where any shoul could come from.
Salaam
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Here is an aya
7.57.
And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy until, when they have carried heavy rainclouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded.So "we bring forth the dead".
Wht is brought forth?
Hi,
Like I said the problem with bringing the quran to things we have no knowledge of is a bit difficult because we all have different understandings.
Anyway this is how I read the verse.It is not the dead (thus dead people), but that what is dead.
In this case death land, when it gets water, it brings forth every kind of sort. The last part says (of course imo), "In this way We bring forth what is dead."What those who say that the "body" and the "soul" are two separate units uphold is that what is dead is the body and the the soul has not died, somehow it has been liberated from the body. So what is brought forth here as well as in other ayas of the same import?
RED I never said that. How should I know such thing? Maybe some souls live on and maybe some souls die with the body. I have of course a theory based on my understanding of the quran.
Also proof from the Qur'an that the soul of each person existed before that person was conceived.
Another aya
7.25.
He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."Again what is it that will be brought forth?
RED Actually if I had to prove it with my understanding of the quran then I would have give you probably 725 as evidence
To who is Allah is here talking? Isn't it Adam? What shape does Adam have (thus from what is created?) and were was he, were is he send to?
Another aya
4.66.
And if We had decreed upon them, "Kill (uqtulu) yourselves (anfusakum)" or "Leave your homes," they would not have done it, except for a few of them. But if they had done what they were instructed, it would have been better for them and a firmer position.So what do they have to "uqtulu"?
I do not believe uqtul means kill, see 254. Allah never commands to kill ourself.
Anyway my theory is that here on earth a soul can not live without a body. -
Peace Mister hawk99,
Good post. I agree with your views.
"They ask you concerning the Ruh. Say 'It is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only
with my Lord. And of knowledge, you have been given very little."Thanks for sharing this verse.