How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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peace,
Should we then conclude that, according to the Qur?an, having sex outside marriage is a bigger crime than murder?
This article would suggest the above thinking is wrong
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-crime-punishment-expiation.htmlThe greatest punishment for a crime is of course execution. No execution punishment exists for sex outside marriage.
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Hi,
RED This means that your understanbding of the quran is the correct one and everybody who differs from your understanding is trying to correct the quran.
The Qur'an was best understood by those closest to the prophet because they were the receivers of those messages during 23 years. And those messages were directly related to their own lives and their own problems. It has very little to do with our own problems and our lives. We live in an entirely different age, culture and environment.
If after 1400 years we still don't know the "true message" of the Qur'an, then why did God send the book? How can we follow that which is so unclear and subject to endless interpretations?
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peace,
This article would suggest the above thinking is wrong
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-crime-punishment-expiation.htmlThe greatest punishment for a crime is of course execution. No execution punishment exists for sex outside marriage.
Peace Wakas,
True, but according to the Qur'an it's also better if we "forgive" the murderer. So why isn't it also better to forgive thieves and "fornicaters"? Are sex outside marriage and theft unforgivable, but murder is not as big a crime, and thus, forgivable?
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The Qur'an was best understood by those closest to the prophet because they were the receivers of those messages during 23 years. And those messages were directly related to their own lives and their own problems.
Those messages still solve many problems. You will know it once you actually start to apply them in your life.
It has very little to do with our own problems and our lives. We live in an entirely different age, culture and environment.
Nope, human sacrifice globally is still common. Truth is still frowned upon. Blasphemers are still punished through threats and death. People still love obeying some human master instead of hearing themselves and spending time in critical thinking.
If after 1400 years we still don't know the "true message" of the Qur'an, then why did God send the book? How can we follow that which is so unclear and subject to endless interpretations?
The true message is understood only by those who actually listen to Quran. The book is not unclear. Its just the human corruption which made it unclear. How many truly uphold this verse
6112 - We have permitted the enemies of every prophet?human and jinn devils?to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.It isn't God, but us responsible for making the book unclear by falling under the spell of mullahs who actually don't seem to believe in Quran, but just want power.
True, but according to the Qur'an it's also better if we "forgive" the murderer. So why isn't it also better to forgive thieves and "fornicaters"? Are sex outside marriage and theft unforgivable, but murder is not as big a crime, and thus, forgivable?
Not all murders are forgiven. You need to read the verses about thief's hand cutting again. The law does include forgiving those who repent. The punishment for sex outside marriage isn't easy. You need to show witnesses. But isn't it like normally people do it in closed room? I live in US and I know why Allah frowns upon sex outside marriage. People can debate as much as they want about how it is not bad, but it doesnt change the following facts
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It does contribute to stds. Nightmare in the link http//www.nursingschools.net/blog/2010/05/10-truly-shocking-stats-on-stds-and-college-students/ No innocent human deserves to be its victim.
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It does create babies out of wedlock who can end up with lifelong psychological problems and even suffer from proper care http//hbse.pbworks.com/w/page/11921493/Behavior%20problems%20among%20illegitimate%20children I have plenty of friends who can't differentiate between good and bad which seems to be not common among those who have both mom and dad at home.
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It does create inequality. Family of the guy can deny the right of his pregnant girlfriend with the excuse that she is of bad character. Similarly, if the guy is proved to be the father he has to give child support which isn't always a piece of cake.
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It does minimize a woman's chance to continue a lifelong marriage.
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For both stds and single mom, its the citizens who pay through tax.
I can go on and on about it. I'll stop there. The truth is that that specific thing called sex outside marriage can have impact on a huge number of people which isn't same when it comes to murder done to defend one's life. We sometimes when talk about feminism and terrorism, we come to conclusion that feminism has done more damage to the society than terrorism, for through its promotion of promiscuity, it allows slow cruel death (passes from parent to child who then passes it onto his partners and children creating a vicious cycle) whereas terrorists kill a human in one go.
peace
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peace,
You have made some claims about Quran, so before I answer, please provide the Quran evidence for your claims. I have even highlighted your claims in different colours and bold below to make it easier for you.
Peace to everybody
Does anyone know why the Qur'an insists on corporal punishment for those who have sex outside marriage, but when it comes to murder, it says "forgiving" the murderer is better? It even says "don't show mercy to those who commit zina (having sex outside marriage), but it doesn't say "don't show mercy to murderers". Should we then conclude that, according to the Qur?an, having sex outside marriage is a bigger crime than murder?
Peace Wakas,
True, but according to the Qur'an it's also better if we "forgive" the murderer. So why isn't it also better to forgive thieves and "fornicaters"? Are sex outside marriage and theft unforgivable, but murder is not as big a crime, and thus, forgivable?
Also, I should point out, in case it's not painfully obvious, that what you have cited so far (in terms of evidence/reasoning) has come nowhere near to surpassing/trumping the fact that execution (the greatest punishment possible) is not given for sex outside marriage or theft, thus only a person with faulty reasoning would claim non-execution-worthy crimes are a bigger crime than an execution-worthy crime. Thus, if I were to rephrase your questioning in a more sound way, I'd ask why are there differences in the punishment approach of these crimes? That is a more sound/legit question/reasoning.
Of course, I'd only be interested in answering such a question if the questioner has actually thought about it, and provides the possibilities they have come up with so far.
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The Qur'an was best understood by those closest to the prophet because they were the receivers of those messages during 23 years. And those messages were directly related to their own lives and their own problems. It has very little to do with our own problems and our lives. We live in an entirely different age, culture and environment.
Hi,
Do you release that actually your whole reasoning above is based on Bukhary & Co? They were no more than collectors of hearsay at best, and probably it is not even hearsay but much worse.
If after 1400 years we still don't know the "true message" of the Qur'an, then why did God send the book? How can we follow that which is so unclear and subject to endless interpretations?
The quran is like any other object here in this world. What you do with it reflects your personality/identity/character/etc.
If I give you a apple you can kill with it or you can do something useful with it.
You will not be judged for your understanding of the quran but for your deeds.
So if you chop of someones hands off because you think that's what the quran says then be aware that there is no hiding from Allah behind the quran the day you will face your deeds. -
So if you chop of someones hands off because you think that's what the quran says then be aware that there is no hiding from Allah behind the quran the day you will face your deeds.
if you cut somebodys hands after proving him guilty , as per quran but its contradict with quran on plantey of reasons
1 if he did it again law of punishment not apply(as we know hands are already being cut)
2 it will end his earnings he left off with no option to feed himself apart from stealing again.
3 and i m human not God if somebody steal my thingie i will never ever wanted him to get his hands cut that what my reason and logic ,think for a while how come a supreme being commanding u this illogical and cruel thing..
4 eye for an eye life for life its something fair now ( but with respect this law stealing must replace with stealing or sources or properties ) not with F**** hands. if some body cut somebodys hands then i can understand this law apply..
5 is it not a valid point for anybody to think about it and go through all the points and make himself think this book is false cruel and illlogical so he dnt want to practise a religion that presents these things.if he is not muslim law of muslims not applied on him. probably he get atghiest
6 pakistan and lot of other islamic countires the law of punishment is not to cutt off their hands are they not following what they expect to follow, if its true then they are hypocrates who are not following the law of God where it is clearly written in law article 1973 that law must be a islamic law.
7 its a confusion now we need to solve this issue ,, refer to quran again the boos of all books and law.
and eventually u will find the story of joseph brother what the law of God applied there .
8 obviously quran is complete when it talks it clear its verses but one need to struggle for it.. -
if you cut somebodys hands after proving him guilty , as per quran but its contradict with quran on plantey of reasons
1 if he did it again law of punishment not apply(as we know hands are already being cut)
2 it will end his earnings he left off with no option to feed himself apart from stealing again.
3 and i m human not God if somebody steal my thingie i will never ever wanted him to get his hands cut that what my reason and logic ,think for a while how come a supreme being commanding u this illogical and cruel thing..
4 eye for an eye life for life its something fair now ( but with respect this law stealing must replace with stealing or sources or properties ) not with F**** hands. if some body cut somebodys hands then i can understand this law apply..
5 is it not a valid point for anybody to think about it and go through all the points and make himself think this book is false cruel and illlogical so he dnt want to practise a religion that presents these things.if he is not muslim law of muslims not applied on him. probably he get atghiest
6 pakistan and lot of other islamic countires the law of punishment is not to cutt off their hands are they not following what they expect to follow, if its true then they are hypocrates who are not following the law of God where it is clearly written in law article 1973 that law must be a islamic law.
7 its a confusion now we need to solve this issue ,, refer to quran again the boos of all books and law.
and eventually u will find the story of joseph brother what the law of God applied there .
8 obviously quran is complete when it talks it clear its verses but one need to struggle for it..Yeah, this pretty much debunks the traditional interpretation. I don't understand how people don't see it.
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Yeah, this pretty much debunks the traditional interpretation. I don't understand how people don't see it.
our humble responsibilty is to deleiver the message , and make confusions clear.
its up to them how they understand it. -
Those messages still solve many problems. You will know it once you actually start to apply them in your life.
You can only get inspiration from verses in the Qur'an, especially universally accepted principles and morals. Most of the Qur'an, however, can't be applied today and was not meant to be applied literally. They were revealed in a specific historical context, I wonder how many of you know Fazlur Rahman..
Do you know of any Muslim who has ever (literally) applied the following verse;
"And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then go back on what they said - then the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do."
Has anyone here ever freed a slave by the way, which is advised in various verses in the Qur'an?
ISIS does apply certain verses literally (while ignoring and violating many others); they take the wives of the "Kuffar" enemy and turn them into sex slaves as is allowed in the Qur'an. There is nothing in the Qur'an that forbids this because that was the reality back then. It has nothing to do with God wanting or promoting slavery. On the contrary, God also "advises" people to free their slaves in various verses.
There are numerous other verses relating to various issues that today no single Muslim or Muslim state ever applies anywhere in the Muslim world... Not even fundamentalist Muslim theocracies. Because they too know they have nothing to do with today's world. If I have more time I can give more examples of even 'stranger' Qur'an verses that are never applied anymore because they are entirely historical.
People can debate as much as they want about how it is not bad, but it doesnt change the following facts
well, I'm not one of those who support sex outside marriage, just used it as an example..
I would like to add one more thing that I forgot.. "serving God" is not about following the Qur'an literally; we shouldn't worship the Qur'an. God is far greater than some words, or a book like the Qur'an. Life is far too complex to manage by following some fixed written rules or "laws" in the Qur'an, or any other (religious) book.. God has given us far more freedom and enormous abilities than we assume... and by sincerely using our intellect and conscience, we can also always do the morally right thing in different circumstances. Morality and sincerity is most important, not following a few fixed rules..
Peace peace
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Peace Mister Recluse,
Most of the Qur'an, however, can't be applied today and was not meant to be applied literally.
If you are referring to the laws/commandments of the Quran, then I think you are wrong. In my view, most of the laws/commandments of the Quran can be applied today. And in my view, most of the laws/commandments of the Quran are timeless. If you think that most of the laws/commandments of the Quran can't be applied today, then I recommend collecting all the verses in the Quran with laws/commandments. After you have done that, if you can prove that more than half of all verses with laws/commandments can't be applied today, then your claim is true. But if you can't prove such a thing, then your claim is false. Without evidence, a claim is baseless. There are many baseless claims about the Quran on the internet these days. And some of those claims are worse than useless. You seem like a smart man. And I think you have the potential to make valuable contributions to the Quranic community. But it seems that your knowledge of the Quran is little. I recommend reading/studying all of the verses in the Quran before you make claims about what most of the Quran states or doesn't state.
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You can only get inspiration from verses in the Qur'an, especially universally accepted principles and morals. Most of the Qur'an, however, can't be applied today and was not meant to be applied literally. They were revealed in a specific historical context, I wonder how many of you know Fazlur Rahman..
Do you know of any Muslim who has ever (literally) applied the following verse;
"And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then go back on what they said - then the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do."
Has anyone here ever freed a slave by the way, which is advised in various verses in the Qur'an?
i can still see lot of slavery in modern world from different kinds, dnt want to go in detail,one need to analyse what going on now a days, just one simple example of daily life,
a person is in debt of bank/system/law due to the lackness of money which he need for feeding his hungry kids or fear of some medical illness to him or any family member or due to whatever reason, now he is bound to system he must pay instalments otherwise he will face consequences, infact he is a slave infront of bank,
helping him sorting out his problems is a kind of getting him free from burden of slavery...as far the laws of book concern the sense and logic claims if quran is a word of God it must be standing firm in all ages even it talks about 7th century culture but the system of quran is very logical that not only fit with 7th century but today and tomorrow and ever
and one more thing from ur knowledge real slaves also exist in some remote areas of africa and interestingly modern contries like pakkistan its still a tradition in northern areas to sale the daughters with money thats what they call marriage . infact girls are slaves for their parents whoever pay high price he will get the girl,,
so pay the price of these girls and let them live their lives ,if u want to free a slaveand guys pointing out mistakes are alwasy very easy but we always forget when we point a finger towards somebody indirectly three fingers are going against us ... peace
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, if you can prove that more than half of all verses with laws/commandments can't be applied today, then your claim is true.
half oh common not even a single law , this is not a book of any poet , this is the words of my lord , challenging Allah in any mode is bad for health and wealth,lol
firoon already get his lesson ,,lol when he try to make fun of my lord,,,he was very arrogant claiming to haman,,, oh haman give me a ladder so that i can see the God of moses..laughing infront of his public making fun of my rab,,
after a while balance of power changed now see that bastard in another situation totally helpless in the water claiming again i beleive in the God of moses ,,, (where ur haman now) where is ur ladder
replied from my lord,,
toooooooooo late
today we will preserve your body for the future generations and we will make u a sign of people who will come after u.
where is ur power money manpower is there is any god with God,
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Peace Mister Recluse,
If you are referring to the laws/commandments of the Quran, then I think you are wrong. In my view, most of the laws/commandments of the Quran can be applied today. And in my view, most of the laws/commandments of the Quran are timeless. If you think that most of the laws/commandments of the Quran can't be applied today, then I recommend collecting all the verses in the Quran with laws/commandments. After you have done that, if you can prove that more than half of all verses with laws/commandments can't be applied today, then your claim is true. But if you can't prove such a thing, then your claim is false. Without evidence, a claim is baseless. There are many baseless claims about the Quran on the internet these days. And some of those claims are worse than useless. You seem like a smart man. And I think you have the potential to make valuable contributions to the Quranic community. But it seems that your knowledge of the Quran is little. I recommend reading/studying all of the verses in the Quran before you make claims about what most of the Quran states or doesn't state.
The Qur'an is not a book of law. My claims are nothing new, they are supported by many academics, including many Muslim academics and scholars of Islam. Fazlur Rahman is only one of them, I'm baffled that nobody here seems to know...
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half oh common not even a single law
That is just empty rhetoric, in real life nobody applies all the "laws" of the Qur'an, no Muslim state does. Even Omar (Umar ibn Al-Khattb) didn't apply the Qur'an verse about the "spoils of war"... and when other Muslims criticized him by saying; "But Omar, the Qur'an says give so much of the spoils to this group and less to that group" (something like that), Omar said; "The situation we are in now is totally different than the time when that verse was revealed. If I did what the Qur'an verse says, it would be injust! "
As you can see, you can sometimes commit grave injustice, if you apply the Qur'an... look at ISIS for example.
Look at all the verses in the Qur'an about marriage, women's rights, inheritance law, testimony, husband-wife relations and so on..
These are by today's standards very injust.. some are even completely unacceptable. -
Fazlur Rahman is only one of them. I'm baffled that nobody here seems to know.
he is the scholar and politician from pakistan if m not getting it wrong. somehow he is able to make some claims but the law of all the scholars books and their sharia law filter through quran if something contradict with quran its worthy throwable, its not my words its words of imam shafi according to this they need to understand their sharia law first , and need to throw all the fatwas and claims which are agaist quran , so infront of the student of quran he is just another character and he is not a prohpet, he have his own understanding .
That is just empty rhetoric, in real life nobody applies all the "laws" of the Qur'an, no Muslim state does. Even Omar (Umar ibn Al-Khattb) didn't apply the Qur'an verse about the "spoils of war"... when other Muslims criticized him by saying; "But Omar, the Qur'an says give so much of the spoils to this group and less to that group", (something like that), Omar replied; "The situation we are in now is different than the time when that verse was revealed. If I did what the Qur'an verse says, it would be injust! "
spoils of war infront of you, infront of prophet it was a situation to get his home back from the people who make him migrated from his place and day and night plan to kill that prophet. and as i told u before one need to understand the subject of quran when they talk about law and history .
question from you, if somebody kicked you out from your house with power ,will u gona get your house back when u get chance ,definately yes its ur house, but after that it dosent mean u started throwing everybody out from their houses ,in a revenge
As you can see, you can commit grave injustice, if you apply the Qur'an literally... look at ISIS for example.
isis they are not muslims , and they are just using a reason to kill people for their own sake in the name of religion, problem of them , they dnt have a grip on quran , they are killing unrelevant people , they are not authroised to do this in the light of quran. their understanding need to improve.
Look at all the verses in the Qur'an about marriage and women's rights, these are by today's standards very injust.. some are even completely unacceptable.
tell me one by one all the verses whatever u think its unacceptable ila inshAllah i will answer them according to their subject and relevance according to quran. and plz when u address something try to give reference number of chap and verse so that it will be easy for me to have a lok at full pic,, may b we will get successful in long lasting 1400 years dream of pointing out mistaake in quran, which is impossible i think..lot of genius already tried it, but failed
peace -
Peace Wakas,
True, but according to the Qur'an it's also better if we "forgive" the murderer. So why isn't it also better to forgive thieves and "fornicaters"? Are sex outside marriage and theft unforgivable, but murder is not as big a crime, and thus, forgivable?
Peace Recluse,
What do you think of the following verse?
4514 "Say to those who believed to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of God. He will recompense a people for whatever they have earned."
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You can only get inspiration from verses in the Qur'an, especially universally accepted principles and morals. Most of the Qur'an, however, can't be applied today and was not meant to be applied literally. They were revealed in a specific historical context, I wonder how many of you know Fazlur Rahman..
Ah, no, I do not get inspiration from verses. I apply them all the time. Fazlur Rahman or any other scholar can't do anything for my salvation. I came to this world alone and I will probably leave alone also. If I am having doubt I would ask about the verses from those who have genuine interest in Quran like the people up here.
"And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then go back on what they said - then the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do."
Has anyone here ever freed a slave by the way, which is advised in various verses in the Qur'an?
Umm, no because the situation is related to preislamic trend. That said, I agree with imrankhawaja that slavery still exists...but with just other names.
ISIS does apply certain verses literally (while ignoring and violating many others); they take the wives of the "Kuffar" enemy and turn them into sex slaves as is allowed in the Qur'an. There is nothing in the Qur'an that forbids this because that was the reality back then. It has nothing to do with God wanting or promoting slavery. On the contrary, God also "advises" people to free their slaves in various verses.
I quite don't care what ISIS does. The terrorist organization is funded by the west. But give us the verse on sex slaves. By the way, Quran does not have any verse on whether Muslims can drink acid. That does not mean it is allowed.
There are numerous other verses relating to various issues that today no single Muslim or Muslim state ever applies anywhere in the Muslim world... Not even fundamentalist Muslim theocracies. Because they too know they have nothing to do with today's world. If I have more time I can give more examples of even 'stranger' Qur'an verses that are never applied anymore because they are entirely historical.
We apply it in the west though....check our American constitution.
well, I'm not one of those who support sex outside marriage, just used it as an example..
I would like to add one more thing that I forgot.. "serving God" is not about following the Qur'an literally; we shouldn't worship the Qur'an. God is far greater than some words, or a book like the Qur'an. Life is far too complex to manage by following some fixed written rules or "laws" in the Qur'an, or any other (religious) book.. God has given us far more freedom and enormous abilities than we assume... and by sincerely using our intellect and conscience, we can also always do the morally right thing in different circumstances. Morality and sincerity is most important, not following a few fixed rules..
Peace peace
That is what we have been trying to tell you here. Here is what is wrong with your thinking which even we went through as sectarians.
When tafseer, hadiths and sectarian scholars are used to read Quran we get that to be Muslim one has to convert into Ibn Hanbal/Shafi.
When Quran is read without them we get that we need to be just Muslim. No conversion necessary. Hence, if you wish to get to know God and Quran just read the text without using those. This place has lots of God alone Muslims. Wakas is by far the oldest member. Then we have Taro Hiroshi , imrankhawaja, Comrox and many others talking to you. Do you see any of these people supporting what you explained about the Quran verses like cutting hand of thief, etc? Check the other old threads. You will see that these people are genuinely trying to understand the Quran. Do also check out the truth behind sahih fabrications.
peace
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excellent work @ reel
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Ah, no, I do not get inspiration from verses. I apply them all the time. Fazlur Rahman or any other scholar can't do anything for my salvation. I came to this world alone and I will probably leave alone also. If I am having doubt I would ask about the verses from those who have genuine interest in Quran like the people up here.
Without realizing it, you are following imam Shafi'i's claim and official formulation that every single verse in the Qur'an is timeless, universal and must be literally applied in every region of the world and under all cirumstances. Prior to imam Shafi'i, nobody ever claimed such a thing; not even the prophet himself or any of his closest friends. On the contrary, I gave the example of Omar who didn't follow the verse in the Qur'an about booty because if he applied that verse it would have been "injust" in that situation. Someone who had spent years with the prophet and knew him well surely knew what he was doing.
Umm, no because the situation is related to preislamic trend. That said, I agree with imrankhawaja that slavery still exists...but with just other names.
Slavery continued in the Muslim world and elsewhere in the world, including the West until the 19th century. Unfortunately, it was not Muslims who abolished slavery but westerners. How sad.
By the way, Quran does not have any verse on whether Muslims can drink acid. That does not mean it is allowed.
We apply it in the west though....check our American constitution.Very true, because the Qur'an is not a book of law. The Qur'an also doesn't have a verse on punishing rapists, does that mean that rape is fine, or that God forgot to punish rape? There is also not a punishment for homosexuality - is homosexuality fine, or less of a crime than heterosexual activity? There is also not a single verse on bestiality, does that mean sex with animals is acceptable, or not such a big deal? The truth is, punishments for thieves, adulterers, murderers etc. etc. were never meant as literal, universal and timeless laws to be applied everywhere. Nor is the Qur'an a book of economics, warfare, politics, science, sociology or anything else. The Qur'an doesn't talk about tanks and planes; it talks about camels and horses, but we don't see Muslims waging war with horses and camels anymore. Nobody is applying those verses about horses and camels in the Qur'an literally.
The Qur'an does not have verses on punishing internet crimes and thousands of other issues are never even mentioned. That is why you can only get inspiration from the Qur'an, nothing in the Qur'an was meant to be applied literally and universally in every corner of the world. Besides, the Qur'an is Arabic, Bolivians never had a Qur'an. If Arabs were born in South America they too would have never known about the Qur'an or believed in it. If following the Qur'an literally was so important for God, if it literally meant eternal Heaven or Hellfire, He could and definitely would have sent Qur'ans in all languages to all the peoples of the world, which He hasn't. But this is perhaps not entirely relevant to the issue we were discussing.
When tafseer, hadiths and sectarian scholars are used to read Quran we get that to be Muslim one has to convert into Ibn Hanbal/Shafi.
All Muslims, without knowing, follow the much later formulation of Shafi'i that the Qur'an is, in its enterity, universal, timeless and must be followed to the letter at all times, which nobody ever does or did even in the 7th century during caliph Omar's rule who was one of the prophet's closest companions.
Peace peace
