Can we have concensus?
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Peace Bender.
What is the difference between what you say,quote
Musa was a chosen one, as is pointed out in several verses. Like Allah can decree that you will be lost, He can also decree that you will be a chosen one.
And what I said in my posst i.e that GOD knows what you will do?
I see contradiction in some of your posts ?
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace GL,
I think you did not understand my view.
Ok let me explain a bit better.
If I can get in your head right now then it does not mean that I know what you will do tomorrow.
I only know what you are thinking now and not what you will do tomorrow or think tomorrow.
Yes I know your plans for tomorrow but before tomorrow you can change your plans.
Allah knows what is in our minds right now, you think it and He knows it.In the case of Musa, he was choosen by Allah. If Allah chooses you for something then no one can stop it.
2038
2039
2040
2041 -
Peace Bender.
Let me further confirm for you that GOD knows the past ,the present and the future
Anything that happens on earth, or to you, has already been recorded, even before the creation. This is easy for God to do.
Your only god is God; the One beside whom there is no other god. His knowledge encompasses all things.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.Of course you can look up the original Arabic and choose your own translation.
Hi GL,
May I ask from where you got these translations?
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Peace Bender.
I said you can use your own translation. So what does yours say?
I happen to agree with the translation I gave you .It goes with the context of other verses in Qoran. It also goes with "GOD being All Knowing".
If you say "GOD does not know such..." You are contradicting the statement in Qoran that GOD knows "Everything" there is no exception.
"Wa Hua Bikulli Chaiin Aleem".
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Bender.
I said you can use your own translation. So what does yours say?
Hi GL,
I believe that you already know that some words in your translation are not there.
I happen to agree with the translation I gave you .It goes with the context of other verses in Qoran. It also goes with "GOD being All Knowing".
If you say "GOD does not know such..." You are contradicting the statement in Qoran that GOD knows "Everything" there is no exception.
"Wa Hua Bikulli Chaiin Aleem".
GOD bless you.
Peace.RED He is knowledgeable of every matter. I fully agree with that. But what is not a matter now is not a matter but nothing.
My thoughts over a year (if I am still alive) are not a matter yet, I do not even know what I wil be thinking in 1 minute so how can that be a matter? -
Peace Bender.
If GOD knows you, He also knows your innermost thoughts, and what you will do!!!!
Evidence from Qoran
2151I am not going to translate this verse for you,since you do not like the translation I use.
However ,you cannot say GOD did not know what Abraham was going to be thinking and what decisions he was going to make. Are you?But no doubt you are going to keep going around the problem, but Qoran backs the view that GOD knows everything i.e that there is predestination as far as GOD is concerned but not as far as we are concerned. We still make our own decisions
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Bender,
Are you saying that God is retroactive in a way and springs into action after events unfold? Or that he is waiting in a sense to see what we do? I also don't see how any purpose an inspiration or a messenger may have that could be related to God knowing everything as opposed to us? Is the idea here that God would have no need to do this if He already knew what we would do or something to that effect?
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Peace Bender.
GOD wants us to believe Him and His word and to show appreciation ( we have the choice), I believe the test is to bring out our true conviction. Will we succeed in our redemption? It is for us to decide. GOD already knows the outcome. We do not know!!!
..... God wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify God for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
We have endowed Luqmaan with wisdom "You shall be appreciative of God." Whoever is appreciative is appreciative for his own good. As for those who turn unappreciative, God is in no need, Praiseworthy.
Your Lord is full of grace towards the people, but most of them are unappreciative.
Say, "Shall I tell you who the worst losers are?
"They are the ones whose works in this life are totally astray, but they think that they are doing good."
Such are the ones who disbelieved in the revelations of their Lord and in meeting Him. Therefore, their works are in vain; on the Day of Resurrection, they have no weight.The two things are independent of each other. GOD knowing everything and us choosing our destiny.
GOD is not bound by the past ,the present and the future. As far as GOD is concerned the future has already happened.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Bender.
GOD wants us to believe Him and His word
Why would He want us to "believe" Him? Belief in God does not make the world a better place, does it? And I doubt that God needs our belief in Him.
Why is the Qur'an only in Arabic? If Arabs were born in China they would have been Buddhist now. What would have happened to them in that case? Were they simply lucky? Were Iran or Egypt just lucky to have been conquered by Arabs? Poor French, Italians, Mexicans, Japanese, Koreans and most of the world really. Those lucky Arab bastards and the people they conquered!
In the second part of your sentence you say "and His word".
Again, are His words only found in the Arabic Qur'an? Why? Is God an Arab? Are Arabs God's chosen people? Tell that to the Jews. Why didn't He sent books to other regions of the world? Or were the people in those regions simply created for eternal Hellfire? Does God love torturing people who have done nothing wrong?
Why are there so many religions in the world? How can we know which is the word of God? According to Christians you will go to an eternal Hell because you don't accept Jesus as your Lord. Can't you see how incredibly illogical and absurd all these "beliefs" are?
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Peace Recluse.
Some say God is unjust because He allows evil or God is just but He cannot always prevent evil.Others justify injustice, cruelty and arbitrariness of their actions as a result of the will of God.
As humans, we find it hard to understand why bad things happen to us and why there is a lack of order and misery on earth. But God teaches us that there is always a reason for everything that happens .
My opinion is GOD gives us the answers in His scripture.
You are a free being, I am not your guardian. Am I asking you to do anything or forcing you to follow a religion?
I am responsible for me and you are responsible for you.
Brother, I am simply giving my opinion/understanding like you are giving yours!Like I said to you in the other thread. The minimum requirements does not ask you to believe in scriptures or messengers or religions.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
If you only had the true account on your mind, Recluse, like I have. It would be a great relief for you.
God/Rabb is not what people think in general, not at all.
And what people are to do to gain salvation and a real being is also not what people tend to think.
Be well
Amenuel -
If you only had the true account on your mind, Recluse, like I have. It would be a great relief for you.
God/Rabb is not what people think in general, not at all.
And what people are to do to gain salvation and a real being is also not what people tend to think.
Be well
AmenuelSounds all so vague, nobody really knows what or who God really is, His nature, or what He truly wants from humans..
We just fear Him and His Hell, and thus, become fundamentalists... blindly clinging to many unquestioned dogmas that do not make any sense.
Peace peace
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Peace Bender.
GOD is not bound by the past ,the present and the future. As far as GOD is concerned the future has already happened.
True, Did God create something that he is bound by? nope
Peace Hawk,
So, question, do you think the servant was or became similar to a robot then?
One way to understand time(s) is with Einstein's theory of relativity.
We are bound by the illusion of time.
Something we see as the future has already taken place depending on the vantage point!
The above is proven science.
Therefore what is the future for us is not the future for all.
This video may be helpful
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZQxMowBsw
peace
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Bender,
Are you saying that God is retroactive in a way and springs into action after events unfold? Or that he is waiting in a sense to see what we do? I also don't see how any purpose an inspiration or a messenger may have that could be related to God knowing everything as opposed to us? Is the idea here that God would have no need to do this if He already knew what we would do or something to that effect?
Hi,
RED Do you mean something like this with "retroactive" I kill someone, God rewinds creation (goes back in "time", then He reacts just in time. Just like in "Back to the Future".
If so then no I do not believe this for a lot of reasons.BLUE Waiting is a bit strange word I think. Because He is witnessing everything that is. You do He knows, you think He knows, you plan He knows, etc. With other words there is not a single thing that happens and He is witness over it.
GREEN Yes. If He already knows what I will do tomorrow then it implies that I have not a free will but a will that is determined to do what is predestined for me. To know what I am going to do tomorrow means that I am "programmed" in such a way that the author who wrote me made an algorithm in me to predict exactly what I will be tomorrow. This implies that it's not me who is doing all the things but God is letting me do it. I do not believe in this because it goes against free will and more than that it goes against that God is Just and implies that God is just re-watching a movie He already wrote. His inspirations/messengers are just for fun, He al ready knows what I will choose, He is just doing it for the sake of doing it, or to test if there is no bug in what He created.
Just a lot of things that totally make no sense to me to believe in this.I believe God knows everything that is past AND God knows everything that is now AND God knows everything that will happen for the things He speaks His word over it. But NOT what is not determined yet. And I believe we humans are special because we are not predetermined, He gave us a free will, free from His own will. He gave us the KHALIFA over earth. What we make of the earth is our responsibility. But God is not hiding somewhere but He is watching us and He is continuously guiding us to make clear for us what is best for us. Then He let us choose, do we follow His huda or do we follow shaytaan. That is our choice, He does not know what we will choose till the moment we choose. So with other words He does not know what I will do tomorrow but tomorrow the moment I do something He knows it.
Celestial bodies for example are predestined creatures, He wrote for them an algorithm from beginning to end. If he wanted to do that with us then He would have done it, He already showed that He is capable to "even" predestinate stars, so it is for sure He can do that also to us but He didn't, He gave us a free will.Did I understood your questions correctly? And of course this is only what I believe, maybe we are indeed just puppets, but I do not believe that and I refuse to believe that >
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Peace Bender.
As far as GOD is concerned the future has already happened.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Hi,
When did it happen?
Also if it already happened then it implies there was a first time but hey the first time was also not the first time because that would make God also doen't know the future at that time.
Thus implies that God is re-re-re-re-re...re-re-re-watching a movie.This is His creation. You are in the middle of it.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Although the debate has moved off-topic here, since the discussion is persisting let me share my perspective.
What does the Qur?an say
2255 God ? no god except Him the Ever Living Foundation of Existence. Drowsiness or sleep does not take him over. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belong to Him. Who is the one who can intercede with Him except with His authorization? He knows whatever (happened) up until them (literally between their hands) and whatever (would happen) after them and they do not capture (literally surround) anything from His knowledge except what He wills. His domain encompasses the heavens and the earth and guarding of both does not fatigue Him and He is the Highest, the Greatest!
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
That God knows our future is a recurring theme in Qur?an, including the famous instance above. Another very clear declaration in Quran is that, God has predetermined where/how each of us will die
3154 (And) later, from after the distress, He sent down upon you security ? slumber veiled a faction of you while certainly a faction themselves made their souls anxious believing about God beyond the truth ?assumptions of ignorance ? saying, ?Is there anything for us from the command?? Say, ?Indeed the command ? all of it ? is for God?. They hide in their souls what they do not make apparent to you. They say, ?If there happened to be anything for us in the command we would not have been killed here.? Say, ?If you happened to be in your houses, those upon whom murder was booked would have surely come out towards their death-beds.? And so that God could test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts, and God is Knowledgeable of what (you) have in the breast.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
If God does not know whether the murderer/killer will choose to kill.. He cannot predetermine the death of the victim.
So, one can choose to have a view that God does not know the future ? but it would be practically impossible to pass on such a view as ?Quranic?.
Also, that God determines what we will is clearly expressed here
7630 And you will not will accept that God wills. Indeed God happens to be Knowledgeable, Wise.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
Let?s do a thought-experiment. Let?s hold a loaded gun to our head and plan for a suicide. If God knows when we are going to die, He must know if I am going to decide to pull the trigger or not. Right?
Is it logically possible for God to know the future
Yes it is. This is especially true for those who understand the relativity of time as postulated in modern Physics. Here is an excerpt about what Einstein believed about time
Surprising as it may be to most non-scientists and even to some scientists, Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. In 1952, in his book Relativity, in discussing Minkowski's Space World interpretation of his theory of relativity, Einstein writes
Since there exists in this four dimensional structure no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.
Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now. He believed there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence. His most descriptive testimony to this faith came when his lifelong friend Besso died. Einstein wrote a letter to Besso's family, saying that although Besso had preceded him in death it was of no consequence, "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."
Similar view about time is endorsed by the leading scientists of our time. The above site has more details.
If the Future is already existing and God is the One who created it, then God logically knows it. All of it.
Well then, If God determines my wills and choices then how come I am responsible for my actions
Actually this is the Question which confuses most of us into believing that we make our choices independent of God. To clarify this one needs to fully understand this ? God is NOT A DEITY who magically controls certain events and activities in the universe. God is the One who has caused the universe to be. He is the One who gives all objects their properties and He is the One who gives all living beings their consciousness. Everything that is happening in this universe, including the movements of every electron and proton inside our brain is happening because of God?s will. If God is the Foundation of Existence then rather it is impossible for anything to happen or exist beyond God?s will. If we understand God like this, there is no question that every choices that we are making are determined by God.
Everything that is happening in this universe has two sides of it - one the apparent physical side of cause and effect - the other the God's will in the background like the other side of the coin. The wind brings the cloud, the cloud brings the rain - yet God is the One who brings all of it. God's will and the apparent causal relationships in the universe are always simultaneously true.
We eat food that is not ours ? it is from God ? but still we eat it and satisfy our hunger. We breathe not our air ? the air is from God ? but still we breathe and live on. We operate our body ? though the body is not ours ? it is from God ? but still we run around with this body by our choice. Then very well we should make choices with our free will and take responsibility of such ? yet God is the authority who is making those choices for us.
But why we should be held responsible for our choices then? That is because we are making those choices just as much as God is making those choices. We are, in this very limited scope of personal choice making, acting with the authorization of God (bi idhnillah). God brought us into being and given us the freewill ? so He is the One supremely responsible for all of our actions anyway. The fact that God is supremely responsible for everything that happens in the universe does not take away anything from our personal responsibility of the choices that we make with God?s authorization.
When God created Adam, He knew very well that Iblis would choose not to prostrate to Adam. This was all part of God's plan. And Yet Iblis is responsible for his own choice. And he knows and acknowledges this
712 He said, ?What prevented you that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?? He said, ?I am better than him. You created me from fire and You created him from clay.?
713 He said, ?Then descend from it ? for it would not be for you that you be arrogant in it. So get out ? indeed you are among the humbled ones.?
714 He said, ?Reprieve me till the day they are animated.?
715 He said, ?Indeed you are among the reprieved ones.?
716 He said, ?So because you have let me astray, surely I will sit for them on Your straight way.?
717 (And) later surely I will be brought to them from up until them (literally between their hands) and from after them and unto their right and unto their left and You will not find most of them appreciative.?
718 He said, ?Get out of it disgraced and expelled ? surely whoever follows you ? surely I will fill Hell with you all together.?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
The best approach to understand our ownership of our choices is to think like this - we do not make the choices to create our destiny. Our destiny is already predetermined by God. We merely exercise our choices to "earn" that destiny that God has already chosen for us. For some of us who deserve to be guided - God has chosen guidance for us and we will earn such guidance by our own choice. For some others - who deserve to be deviated - God has chosen deviation for them and they will earn such deviation by their own choice.
God is your Master and my Master. Everything in the heavens and on earth are slave to Him willingly or under compulsion. Our Master guides to the straight way whomever He wills.
Best regards,
Arman -
Peace Bender.
Yes it is GOD s creation with a purpose and an outcome that GOD has already predetermined.
For me , the fact that I am here speaking about GOD is a blessing. I could have been nothing, not existed at all!
I am grateful to the Creator for my "creation". I am also grateful that I have been born now . I do not question nor complain about the time or place where I exist.GOD has given me the means to "reflect", the opportunity to learn /study/check His message. This is a bonus ,a double blessing.
While I agree with Arman s post, I also think that what GOD does or knows is beyond our comprehension as humans
" Wa Ma Outeetum Mina Al- Ilmi Illa Kallila"How much do we know?The main message, since we find ourselves humans living on earth, is to do our best, be as best as we can, conduct ourselves in the best manner, do what is best for others and ourselves . We should be appreciative to GOD for giving us this chance and try our best.
My final say in this thread is to wish everyone the best.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Recluse,
Not accurate, I know what God/Rabb is or at least a great deal of His/Her/Its nature. It is not so hard if you find the right information. It is absolutely possible to know what God/Rabb is if you learn about it. I also know exactly why we are here and what we have to do and what is our remedy.
What is vague when I have not even detailed it for you at the moment? I only gave you a teaser of how content you would feel if you knew the nature of God/Rabb.
I also wrote to you that the Quran you have is interpreted by a bunch of hypocrites. Anyways either that or it is a garbage book not useful for much at all due to all the disinformation it spreads. The sectarian interpretation of Quran mainly spreads hatred and Paganistic idealism of the God/Rabb concept. You become much wiser when you begin to think beyond its narrow scope, just as you already seem to have begun to do. Albeit you seem almost hostile towards my input which is actually intended to aid you towards something which would be a relief to you if you hearkened.
I would advise you to look elsewhere into other so-called books of guidance because as Quran is presented by the common people makes it far inferior to certain East Asian spiritual teachers' writings and even the Biblical Gospels. Look beyond Quran even if you do not believe me and my realization and you might eventually draw the same conclusion as friends of mine did who nowadays believe in my declaration.
Jafar in this forum has come a longer way and grasped the truthful account better than most other people in the forum. He is not among the ones mentioned in the previous paragraph, but he is yet advanced in how much he has realized.
Be well
Amenuel -
Hi,
RED Do you mean something like this with "retroactive" I kill someone, God rewinds creation (goes back in "time", then He reacts just in time. Just like in "Back to the Future".
If so then no I do not believe this for a lot of reasons.
No, meaning that God knows after the fact/during the event etc rather than before I suppose. Too much sci-fi on your mind I take it.BLUE Waiting is a bit strange word I think. Because He is witnessing everything that is. You do He knows, you think He knows, you plan He knows, etc. With other words there is not a single thing that happens and He is witness over it.
Okay, so the moment we do/think/whatever something THAT is when He knows? He can't really predict or know what we are going to do since we haven't done it yet...is that closer to what you mean?GREEN Yes. If He already knows what I will do tomorrow then it implies that I have not a free will but a will that is determined to do what is predestined for me. To know what I am going to do tomorrow means that I am "programmed" in such a way that the author who wrote me made an algorithm in me to predict exactly what I will be tomorrow. This implies that it's not me who is doing all the things but God is letting me do it. I do not believe in this because it goes against free will and more than that it goes against that God is Just and implies that God is just re-watching a movie He already wrote. His inspirations/messengers are just for fun, He al ready knows what I will choose, He is just doing it for the sake of doing it, or to test if there is no bug in what He created.
Just a lot of things that totally make no sense to me to believe in this.
No, it doesn't necessarily mean you don't have free will. That's one way of looking at it. Another is that he knows but you still make your own choices without any compulsion. Some conflate this with well if he knows, then why make us suffer, not avoid pitfalls, rot in hell and so on. This I believe has been extensively discussed and there are different viewpoints. The point here is that if God knows then there can be other valid reasons as to why things happen the way they do. It's not mutually exclusive.I believe God knows everything that is past AND God knows everything that is now AND God knows everything that will happen for the things He speaks His word over it. But NOT what is not determined yet. And I believe we humans are special because we are not predetermined, He gave us a free will, free from His own will. He gave us the KHALIFA over earth. What we make of the earth is our responsibility. But God is not hiding somewhere but He is watching us and He is continuously guiding us to make clear for us what is best for us. Then He let us choose, do we follow His huda or do we follow shaytaan. That is our choice, He does not know what we will choose till the moment we choose. So with other words He does not know what I will do tomorrow but tomorrow the moment I do something He knows it.
Celestial bodies for example are predestined creatures, He wrote for them an algorithm from beginning to end. If he wanted to do that with us then He would have done it, He already showed that He is capable to "even" predestinate stars, so it is for sure He can do that also to us but He didn't, He gave us a free will.
I find reading the quran gives me a different impression e.g. 2255 and if I don't use the quran, it still gives me a different impression of what an almighty being in full control and authority would know to deserve such a mantleMaybe another way of looking at this would be what one's thoughts regarding omnipotence and almighty etc. On one hand, God is in full control and has also created the universe and whatever is in it etc which would not work as it does had the creator not calculated everything down to the smallest thing and knows/known/whatever tense how it would all unfold. Not guesswork or I think this will work and as/when issues come up I, God, will be proactive about them...but know that it is the only way it is going to, in those particular ways in specific, down to the last particle since he is the creator/director call it what you will. There are no alternatives or paths that can show up suddenly without it already being known, since as we know bugs in the system, whether beneficial or detrimental are surprise elements due to the limitations of a less than perfect programmer. The latter would be omnipotence or the essence of almighty but of course one could argue that the former could be as well but in my opinion, that is very weak and against the meaning of the concept. It's elegance/efficiency/smartness versus shoddy/inelegant/not so smart. I think of God as elegant, smart and efficient...perfect too, and have no doubt that's the better way of having any set up/system as we can see in designing systems on this material plane. Signs if you will.
This would apply to ALL things. Humans are part of the universe and their interactions with it and with themselves would obviously be included. It would be foolish to assume that humans are somehow shielded by a black spot where God's powers of observation/knowing cannot see...for all we know everything has already happened in all the possible ways already...is the reasoning if God did know he'd be extremely cruel if he let it happen or extremely compassionate and stop it? Reminds me of documentary makers recording cute cubs dying. Did God stop at some point and say I don't want to know since it hasn't happened yet and time apparently suddenly applies to Me too? Doesn't mean we don't have control in the ways that we do, and doesn't mean that we are puppets on a string. For the quran to say with authority in many places who is going to hell and who isn't, about events that haven't unfolded yet and so on and so forth we can only take it to mean someone up there knows, what's the alternative? that that was mostly just generic talk, and events could unfold in different ways and we'll see what happens as it happens so stay tuned for further bulletins as events warrant, or not. Not very authoritative is it?
Did I understood your questions correctly? And of course this is only what I believe, maybe we are indeed just puppets, but I do not believe that and I refuse to believe that >
There can be alternatives other than binary.
So, one can choose to have a view that God does not know the future ? but it would be practically impossible to pass on such a view as ?Quranic?.
I agree.For some others - who deserve to be deviated - God has chosen deviation for them and they will earn such deviation by their own choice.
No one deserves to be deviated, they earn it themselves. I would opine that guidance is the set path/package for all and by their actions they choose and thereby earn deviation or further guidance.