Refute Edip Yuksel's claim about orphan in 4:127

unknownuser

I already get the answer for way he translate yatama al nisaae as orphan's mother and why yatama is male in gender

First I take huruf's advice if yatama is mixed in gender, it means this word can be masculine or feminine.

2220
42
46

See the word hum which is pronoun of "yatama" is masculine, so this is clearly stated if yatama in those three verses is male in gender or male orphan.

But I still in my opinion if yatama and alnisaa' is not related each other.
AND THIS VERSE ALSO CLEARLY SAID IF QURAN IS NOT MALE DOMINANT SCRIPTURE.

Because if the verse only addrressing male then how can it be if that male marry the male orphans ;D.

Bigmo

Salaam everyone.

Actually I already posting about this in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg335987#msg335987
But that was not complete so I create new thread about this.

First read this Edip Yuksel's appendix of ayat 4127 from Reformist Translation

Then this is mine refutation

4127.They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the rights of orphans whose mothers ( /yatama al-nisa) you want to marry without giving them their legal rights. You shall observe the rights of powerless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it." (Reformist Translation)

4127.They consult thee concerning women. Say Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you (giveth decree), concerning female orphans and those unto whom ye give not that which is ordained for them though ye desire to marry them, and (concerning) the weak among children, and that ye should deal justly with orphans. Whatever good ye do, lo! Allah is ever Aware of it. (Pitchall)

Both of this translations is not true I think

Yatama ()=orphan
Nisaa () = women/females

At the first I believe on him regarding this, but when I try to studied that red words, I got a problem.
In the Reformist Translation's appendix, Edip Yuksel claim if the word yatama in 4127 is male gender or masculine So thats why his translation of 4127 is different with the others. BUT

According to corpus quran the word yatama () is plurar.Yes this is true if yatama is plurar form of yatim.
The problem is according to me it's not a masculine instead feminine one.

The proof is the word ?yatama? ( ) is irregular plurar, because

In Arabic grammar rule, the regular plurar (jamak saleem) the word must end with nun, but this word doesn't.
If members in here mastering wa?zan rules then by looking the shape of that word (singular) into (plurar), then the word yatama is irregular plurar (jamak takseer).

Wa?zan rules is tranformation of word from singular (mufrod) into irregular plurar (jamak takseer)
Example
-Red (english)= (singular) => (plurar)

-Difficult (english)= (singular) => (plurar)

The more important is All the irregular plurar words are feminime words or female gender withouth any exception.
The word ?yatama? and ?Al-Nisaa? is written separately and no conjuctive between them.So this mean there is no relation between two words and yes they are separate entity because both of two words is a noun.

So ?yatama al-Nisa?i? can be translated into ?orphans (,) women? with commas between them.

Then what criteria of orphan who can be marry to
Read verse 46

?and test the orphans so that if they are up to the age of marriage, then if you think of them intelligent then commit to them their wealth and you do not eat more than the limit and haste (until) they are big/ adult...."

That criteria is in that red words.
Btw my conclusion is same The orphans who not mature enough cannot be married.

This is my explanations, if it contains some mistake then I will appreciate your helps and corrections.

Peace

This is not relevant since the Quranic commands can only be relevant to those who can comprehend it. So the Quran is not designed for those who are no able to comprehend its meaning. The age of marriage is for those who are mature enough to understand the Quran. The Quran does not recognize parental authority in marriage as Sunnis claim which is why they allow child marriage. Parental authority or family authority in the Quran is in the case of the death of someone and a compensation is required. Here the family can act on behalf of the individual since he is dead. Unless you assume the Quran was designed for mature men only but this goes against the Quranic description of itself as a message to mankind. The Quran in many instances talks to men but is really talking to everyone as the case when in many instances its talking to the prophet but really is talking to all of us or is talking to the disbelievers but is really talking to all of us.

The age of marriage is the age of comprehension. The Quran only cares about mental maturity and not physical maturity.

As far as polygamy, polygamy was practiced by many prophets. But the Quran allowed it but discouraged it or laid conditions to it like equality. However its not a requirement for us so there is nothing wrong with abolishing it.

The Quran allowed us to travel but there is nothing wrong with having border controls and visa requirements. Its just how modern humans manage themselves.

Child marriage is rape since the child is not able to comprehend the meaning of the Quran like not to marry pagans or adulterers. A child can not know the difference and does not even have a concept of God. However we interpret the Quranic verses it must be done in a way that doe snot contradict the Quran. We are not Sunnis who look at verses in isolation but we take the Quran as a whole.

Mazhar

So how you translate yatama al-nisae??

It is already indicated in the quote

This is the simplest rule of Arabic that every noun in default state is in nominative case. The case means the vowel on the last consonant. The noun in genitive case, as is An-Nisae with Yatama, is the part of the phrase; a phrase is a grammatical unit in all languages; "the father-orphan women"

unknownuser

This is not relevant since the Quranic commands can only be relevant to those who can comprehend it. So the Quran is not designed for those who are no able to comprehend its meaning. The age of marriage is for those who are mature enough to understand the Quran. The Quran does not recognize parental authority in marriage as Sunnis claim which is why they allow child marriage. Parental authority or family authority in the Quran is in the case of the death of someone and a compensation is required. Here the family can act on behalf of the individual since he is dead. Unless you assume the Quran was designed for mature men only but this goes against the Quranic description of itself as a message to mankind. The Quran in many instances talks to men but is really talking to everyone as the case when in many instances its talking to the prophet but really is talking to all of us or is talking to the disbelievers but is really talking to all of us.

The age of marriage is the age of comprehension. The Quran only cares about mental maturity and not physical maturity.

As far as polygamy, polygamy was practiced by many prophets. But the Quran allowed it but discouraged it or laid conditions to it like equality. However its not a requirement for us so there is nothing wrong with abolishing it.

The Quran allowed us to travel but there is nothing wrong with having border controls and visa requirements. Its just how modern humans manage themselves.

Child marriage is rape since the child is not able to comprehend the meaning of the Quran like not to marry pagans or adulterers. A child can not know the difference and does not even have a concept of God. However we interpret the Quranic verses it must be done in a way that doe snot contradict the Quran. We are not Sunnis who look at verses in isolation but we take the Quran as a whole.

Thanks for the input, but this thread itens to discuss word "yatama" in 4127.

This is the simplest rule of Arabic that every noun in default state is in nominative case. The case means the vowel on the last consonant. The noun in genitive case, as is An-Nisae with Yatama, is the part of the phrase; a phrase is a grammatical unit in all languages; "the father-orphan women"

I already made conclusion if "yatama" is male in gender in the post above.So there is no point if that orphan is a female.

Then from where the word "the father" caming from?

Mazhar

I already made conclusion if "yatama" is male in gender in the post above.So there is no point if that orphan is a female.

Then from where the word "the father" caming from?

"Orphan" in English denotes a child whose parents are both dead or who has been abandoned by his or her parents, especially a child not adopted by another family.

But Yateem and Yateematun in Arabic refers only to a male and female whose father has died. Therefore "father-orphan" seems appropriate translation.

Yatama It is also feminine plural noun. Please read about broken plural nouns in Arabic.

unknownuser

"Orphan" in English denotes a child whose parents are both dead or who has been abandoned by his or her parents, especially a child not adopted by another family.

But Yateem and Yateematun in Arabic refers only to a male and female whose father has died. Therefore "father-orphan" seems appropriate translation.

Yatama It is also feminine plural noun. Please read about broken plural nouns in Arabic.

Your answer is similiar with me in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605791.msg337986#msg337986

The word "yatim" already became part of Indonesian and Malay language.If you want to know some of Indonesia and Malay language adopted from Arabic and Hindi words.

English Indonesian Arabic
Fatherless child Yatim
Motherless child Piatu ??
Orphan Yatim Piatu

Therefore "father-orphan" seems appropriate translation.

Then you may wrote "fatherless orphan" rather than "father orphan", so I'm not confused like this.

Yatama It is also feminine plural noun. Please read about broken plural nouns in Arabic.

My Arab vocabularies is poor.To mastering broken plural in Arabic, we must struggle ourself to memorize wazan (pattern) of broken plural word by word, because this is has no clear formula like regular plurar (jamak saleem).

Peace

Mazhar

Then you may wrote "fatherless orphan" rather than "father orphan", so I'm not confused like this.

"Father-orphan" quite clearly explains for English reader since they know that orphan signifies a child whose parents are dead. "Father-orphan" indicates that it refers to a child whose father is dead.

"Fatherless" might render it ambiguous because fatherless means without a father having no father or no one identified as a father.

Edip_Yuksel

I came across this thread by chance while doing a search via Google. According to the Quran, the plural form YaTaMa is masculine, since the unambiguous pronouns referring to them are masculine.

2220 (laHUM)
42 (amwalaHUM)
46 (balaU)

Peace,
Edip

huruf

Because in this case it is ot the word ulama' that makes the concordace but the element, the persons who form that group, in plural. That is the concordance is made with te components of the group 3lama' and nnot with the group itself.

Same as with the wives or the nisaa' of the prophet, azway itself would be a feminine singular, but the cocordance is made with the components of the group, the nisaa' or the wives in the feminine plural.

Salaam

fye

Have nothing to do with sectarian ist
Your in the wrong otherwise