Personal Identity and the Soul
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Pazuzu or omebody else who said that the ruh is the ability blown ito the bashar to become ahuman being capable of evolution as insaan, that is from mere hominid to human.
Yes it was Pazuzu. About the ruuh is pure conjecture on my part but i think it's very likely that the ruuh is something that gives us the ability to discern right from wrong and act on either path.
The confusion among some...well most people except perhaps you and myself apparently spans the matter of the "soul"/nafs ah "living on" after bodily death.
The Quran does not support this. Infact the Quran spells out that the nafs is put to death, which simply means that it - you, I or whoever else ceases to exist. Nafs is more of a pointer to an individual from bashar - insaan and its experience of a reality - in our case it is this world reality through a body. That does not mean the body is this separate thing..no, it is part of the nafs. One does not exist without the other.
I am again descending into the murky waters of conjecture here (i do dislike it) but it maybe that the ruuh and the body make up the nafs. While the body is alive, it has access to the ruuh, once it dies, that is the end of experience and existence...in summary, the nafs is dead.
-untill the time God revives it (this isnt conjecture, because in the Quran, resurrection...and being raised from the grave supplemented by verses like God being able to restore the very finger tips of every human is a central and a repetitive theme and article of faith - which quite clearly suggests bodily resurrection).
That doesnt imply that the nafs is separate from the body, the body is part of the nafs, it is the "nafs" that is put to death which includes your body and all individual conciousness/personality and experience.
Bearing all that in mind, if you believe the revelations in the Quran
from your perspective of course, its as if you never die, because while dead you have no recollection, no experience and sense of passing time or processing of any reality. That does not mean that the "nafs lives on" in a technical and hard logical sense. The nafs is only alive while God has given it life (in our case with the human body and its senses), and it is a limited life with the nafs expiring at a determined time.There maybe exceptions other than the martyrs not being "dead" (i have some ideas but i wont go into that for obvious reasons - even greater conjecture) that we simply know nothing about and probably wont know in our lifetimes. But normally all nafs/of us die and cease to exist till God resurrects.
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I am again descending into the murky waters of conjecture here (i do dislike it) but it maybe that the ruuh and the body make up the nafs. While the body is alive, it has access to the ruuh, once it dies, that is the end of experience and existence...in summary, the nafs is dead.
-untill the time God revives it (this isnt conjecture, because in the Quran, resurrection...and being raised from the grave supplemented by verses like God being able to restore the very finger tips of every human is a central and a repetitive theme and article of faith - which quite clearly suggests bodily resurrection).
That doesnt imply that the nafs is separate from the body, the body is part of the nafs, it is the "nafs" that is put to death which includes your body and all individual conciousness/personality and experience.
Bearing all that in mind, if you believe the revelations in the Quran
from your perspective of course, its as if you never die, because while dead you have no recollection, no experience and sense of passing time or processing of any reality. That does not mean that the "nafs lives on" in a technical and hard logical sense. The nafs is only alive while God has given it life (in our case with the human body and its senses), and it is a limited life with the nafs expiring at a determined time.There maybe exceptions other than the martyrs not being "dead" (i have some ideas but i wont go into that for obvious reasons - even greater conjecture) that we simply know nothing about and probably wont know in our lifetimes. But normally all nafs/of us die and cease to exist till God resurrects.
So when we are all resurrected before God in bodily form, then what? Will our bodies then exist eternally in either of the places He has ordained for us? Trying to understand your thinking here.
Peace. )
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Hi,
If I lose my legs in an accident I will have like 50% (I have giant legs) body left but I think I will still have 100% nafs.
oh and my legs will have 0% nafs
You can laugh and joke all you want on this, but you have missed the point entirely. The point is that you are "alive". Whether you have 1 limb or half a limb. And as long as you are alive, you are alive through a body.
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So when we are all resurrected before God in bodily form, then what? Will our bodies then exist eternally in either of the places He has ordained for us? Trying to understand your thinking here.
Peace. )
Refer to the Quran. It's not clear in what form we'll be resurrected, but the hints point toward the same earthly body. And yes, the Quran does suggest that the next life is eternal (in either of the two resting places mentioned).
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Refer to the Quran. It's not clear in what form we'll be resurrected, but the hints point toward the same earthly body. And yes, the Quran does suggest that the next life is eternal (in either of the two resting places mentioned).
I thought you would say this but I wanted to make sure. Thanks. I'll look into it more.
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Only God is eternal, neither paradise no hell are eternaland the Qur'an says it repeatedly, our destiny is to God, the eternal, after death presumbly, since nohing is eternal but God we will cotinue to evolve in every sense. We do not know how our bodies will be after, we only know what we are told of paradise and the fire, but life will continue till we do devolve to God. We are not eternal but our evolution will continue till we devolve to God.
About the legs, I wouldn't worry, surely God knows how to give us anything He gave us to start with and even things He did not give us before if He wans to give us then. He speaks again and again and uses the simil of the plants and the barren earth and then how it revives. Just to show that we may ot know how to do it but He des, just as He did know how to do it for the first time.
Salaam
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You can laugh and joke all you want on this, but you have missed the point entirely. The point is that you are "alive". Whether you have 1 limb or half a limb. And as long as you are alive, you are alive through a body.
Hi,
The only joke was about my legs the rest was serious.
RED That is what I am also saying. Here on this earth a soul can only live through a body. Thus I do not believe people who say they can talk with dead people.
The example is only to show that our body is not our soul, they are 2 different things. -
Just to share
In images, I see the situation like this... be it sensible or outrageous.
We are souls who need to go through a worldly life, perhaps for test/growth/redemption.
God pairs a soul with a body as a perfect match, that we are born into. Our souls need the misery our bodies come with (temper, DNA, heritage, looks, capacities, weaknesses... and this includes that od the brain aswell=IQ, social skills, scholarly aptitude etc etc).
Therefore, our parents are matched for us.
Of course, this is hard to accept as there is much horrendous things that happen to children, but hey, I don't claim my theory/idea to be perfect or complete. However, I do believe there is MUCH more purpose to things that happen than we tend to be willing to accept.Peace
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Just to share
In images, I see the situation like this... be it sensible or outrageous.
We are souls who need to go through a worldly life, perhaps for test/growth/redemption.
God pairs a soul with a body as a perfect match, that we are born into. Our souls need the misery our bodies come with (temper, DNA, heritage, looks, capacities, weaknesses... and this includes that od the brain aswell=IQ, social skills, scholarly aptitude etc etc).
Therefore, our parents are matched for us.
Of course, this is hard to accept as there is much horrendous things that happen to children, but hey, I don't claim my theory/idea to be perfect or complete. However, I do believe there is MUCH more purpose to things that happen than we tend to be willing to accept.Peace
Hi,
Thx!!! Exactly my thoughts.
RED I think I have an idea what you have in mind, if it is what I have in mind then I totally agree with you
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If Igo by Qur'an, human beings are a unit, not to separate things, humans eolve, evolve all the time. Just like moth are something and the they are something else, it is still the same thing,not that before it was a a worm and a moth and then one dies and the moth lives on. Same with humans. I donot get from hte Qur'n that there are two different things paired and that they can break away like in a divorce.
May be thi thig ofwoul ad body come from some greek philosophy which sipped ito christianity and then into generalthought islam icluded. Be it as it may I do ot find that it agrees with the Qur'an. And also I do not finnd that it is beautiful. It seem rather disruptive.
Go spends a lot of words in the Qur'an time and time again to point to us how we will be brought back to life and when He does He is not speaking of two separate things with existence of their own, the naf, if it is the nafs what some of you call soul, is not that I can see a separate thig, ut as the head isot a separate thig even if e can speak of the head itsef as a separate thing, or the mind. Se separate concepts i our understanding but that does not mean that anything we consider separately is something indeed separat, how do you separate the mind from the emotions? Somepeople do, in fact suffr because their are split i th natural born character between both, but that doe nnot make them into two separate indeendent entities.
Salaam
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Peace hawk99,
I'd like to have members facts/speculation and input What is the ruh? How is it different from the nafs?
peaceIn my view, you can find the best explanation of ruh and how it is different from nafs in chapter 3 of the book "Islam A challenge to religion" by G.A Parwez.
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
Peace hawk99,
In my view, you can find the best explanation of ruh and how it is different from nafs in chapter 3 of the book "Islam A challenge to religion" by G.A Parwez.
I've never read the book. Have you read it? Can you briefly summarize the view(s) presented? )
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Peace Comrox,
I've never read the book. Have you read it? Can you briefly summarize the view(s) presented?
Yes, I have read it some years ago. In my view, Islam A challenge to religion, is one of the greatest books ever written about Quranic islam. Therefore I deeply recommend reading it. I also recommend some other great books by G.A Parwez such as "Book of Destiny" "Quranic Permanent Values" and "The Qur'anic System of Sustenance." In my view, G.A Parwez has also written some excellent articles such as "Only one question" and "Why do we lack character."
According to Parwez there is a difference between Ruh and Nafs. G.A. Parwez claims that the word nafs has been wrongly translated as soul and spirit. He claims that word nafs should be translated as self/personality. And self/personality is something which can grow or decline based on our deeds. For example, if someone does good deeds his nafs (self/personality) will grow. But if someone does wrong deeds, his nafs (self/personality) will decline. With regards to Ruh, this Quranic term means divine energy according to G.A parwez. The Ruh (divine energy) allows man to choose and act freely. Thus Ruh (divine energy) is connected to free choice/will. Keep in mind that this brief summary is based on my interpretation of Parwez views. Thus, it might contain errors. Also, keep in mind that no Scholar has the final word regarding Quranic terms/concepts. The Quranic is a dynamic text, and as human knowledge increases, we will get a more correct (reality-based) interpretation of its terms/concepts. One should not accept anything blindly, in my opinion. And I think it's a good decision to verify what one reads about the Quran. Also, I believe that the teacher of the Quran is Allah, not humans. Thus, I think the God is the one who can give us the best explanation of Quranic terms/concepts.
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
Peace Comrox,
Yes, I have read it some years ago. In my view, Islam A challenge to religion, is one of the greatest books ever written about Quranic islam. Therefore I deeply recommend reading it. I also recommend some other great books by G.A Parwez such as "Book of Destiny" "Quranic Permanent Values" and "The Qur'anic System of Sustenance." In my view, G.A Parwez has also written some excellent articles such as "Only one question" and "Why do we lack character."
According to Parwez there is a difference between Ruh and Nafs. G.A. Parwez claims that the word nafs has been wrongly translated as soul and spirit. He claims that word nafs should be translated as self/personality. And self/personality is something which can grow or decline based on our deeds. For example, if someone does good deeds his nafs (self/personality) will grow. But if someone does wrong deeds, his nafs (self/personality) will decline. With regards to Ruh, this Quranic term means divine energy according to G.A parwez. The Ruh (divine energy) allows man to choose and act freely. Thus Ruh (divine energy) is connected to free choice/will. Keep in mind that this brief summary is based on my interpretation of Parwez views. Thus, it might contain errors. Also, keep in mind that no Scholar has the final word regarding Quranic terms/concepts. The Quranic is a dynamic text, and as human knowledge increases, we will get a more correct (reality-based) interpretation of its terms/concepts. One should not accept anything blindly, in my opinion. And I think it's a good decision to verify what one reads about the Quran. Also, I believe that the teacher of the Quran is Allah, not humans. Thus, I think the God is the one who can give us the best explanation of Quranic terms/concepts.
Interesting. I'll have to read it. I'll have to read through this thread again too and think through this and hopefully I'll come to my own conclusion, insha'allah.
Of course God is the teacher. But if we are all receiving guidance, then why this division? ;D
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I think it is very clear that naf is not what in christianity is called soul. I agree with the quote in that aspect.
As to the ruh infused inhumanity, I remember Pazuzu saying that it wasthe capacity to evolve into what it is, like to develop speech and become from bashar to insaan.
In th Qur'an we see in the Qur'an when somebody is infused a ruj from God, it enables the person to carry out some spcific task or mission.Salaam
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nafs is the controller of an individual , in humankind human nafs is the main character that leads everything related to human being and his actions,
whereas about body our soul told us what to eat, the requirements of body is seperate from soul and connected with it same time , example if we steal something for eating , we did it for body but soul is responsible. we dnt know how our own body behave and looks like , and if something wrong happen to our body how we will gona repair or replace it , we are confused in every aspect, nothing we know fullly about our seen things as well as hidden things. for me human being is a pair of neg and positive like everything else , our bodies and characters are two sides of a pair, we dnt really understand fully, we have been given limited knowledge
and about ghualam ahmed pervaiz, i used to listen him alot and i like him as well , his concepts about quran are very different from traditional people but again , when i study some interpretation of quran regarding chapter 27 sunra naml i feel something fishy i go through it and find a clear contradiction of language with lot of interrpretation, due to which i decided not to beleive anybody untill research the things by our ownself , its a safe way, and its not a rocket science to understand or research something speacially in this era when everyhting is in hand and in our finger tips,
peace
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nafs is the controller of an individual
Agreed, my speculation is as follows, the nafs is us, the personality, the ego, what
drives us, that which will be judged. The ruh is the life force that animates us. The body
is the vehicle or housing in which the nafs exist in the earthly physical reality, for instance
if we humans lived in another physical environment our bodies would be different but the
nafs would be the same. -
Agreed, my speculation is as follows, the nafs is us, the personality, the ego, what
drives us, that which will be judged. The ruh is the life force that animates us. The body
is the vehicle or housing in which the nafs exist in the earthly physical reality, for instance
if we humans lived in another physical environment our bodies would be different but the
nafs would be the same.yeh exactly hawk, you describe it in more easy way, i agree,
God bless you