Can we have concensus?
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Salam brother Arman, all
Here are my answers to your questions
Q1 I will answer this question as in 37 in that "all is from the god".
Also, I think that Al-quran as we find it now is the best book of guidance available. Sure, I haven't read all the books available, but so far, no book can surpass it.Q2 Yes, but not as you seem to think.
Please see the picture below presenting a person's decision tree. To make the reasoning easier, we suppose that at each time, the person can choose only between 2 options (Green=good, red=bad). The blue represents birth, and black is death.https//i.imgsafe.org/7c18fee.png
Birth is at T0, then the decision making process starts. The person may not know where each path will lead, but the god knows where each path goes, even for death time, place, and condition.
You can see on that picture that death can happen at different position in times (T2, T3, T4, T5 OR T6), and also in different places, and the person may die as a good or bad person.
The god knows all the decision tree for this person, but let the person choose the path to take the straight one or the crooked one. Every one is writing his own book by his own hands, but the decision tree is decided by the god from before with many different endings.
Peace
Salaam Mohamed,
Thank you!!! Nice explaining this is exactly how I also understand handshake
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But how can we even have these thoughts of God displaying these human emotions in the first place, regardless of what He knows, because God is not anything like us?
Ancient (western) people see God as if He's a human being..
They even think that He eat food (that's why sacrifice is needed to feed God)..How it came to be?
Perhaps human always try to understand things using their own perspective..
And things which pleases them will also pleases God.
Things which unpleasant to them will also be unpleasant to God.Not only God, they also see stars, sun, moon, sky, mountain and ocean as if they're human being..
Sending them poem (mantra) and offering to please them, hoping that the ocean will bring forth the fishes, sky to bring forth rain etc...Did I mentioned that they also think that rain can come through sacrificing virgins (killing them) to the sky God?
Oh yes they do...Eastern culture however didn't see God as if He's a human being..
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Peace Bender.
If God does not know the future how come He send prophecies with prophets?This is a simple test ,it is not complicated,for example
302-3-4-5
What is it about GOD knowing the future that bothers you?
GOD s attribute- Aalimu kulli chayeen"- confirms it.
Anyway, I still do not understand your view here. GOD knows all the paths, but does not know which ones we take, very strange!!!
Also 2044 are words of encouragement to Moses and his brother because they were frightened to go to Pharaoh. It does not mean GOD did not know whether Pharaoh will listen or not!!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Bender.
If God does not know the future how come He send prophecies with prophets?This is a simple test ,it is not complicated,for example
302-3-4-5
What is it about GOD knowing the future that bothers you?
GOD s attribute- Aalimu kulli chayeen"- confirms it.
Anyway, I still do not understand your view here. GOD knows all the paths, but does not know which ones we take, very strange!!!
Also 2044 are words of encouragement to Moses and his brother because they were frightened to go to Pharaoh. It does not mean GOD did not know whether Pharaoh will listen or not!!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace.Hi GL,
I think I already have answered your questions before and I will only repeat myself.
Btw this is just how I understand things, I am not claiming that this is the truth.
For me this makes the most sense and is in accordance with my understanding of the quran, but maybe I am totally wrong.peace
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Salaam Arman,
I am convinced that the quran we have today (in it's totality) is "speaking" the truth.
No. But don't stop reading
This is how I see it.
When you where born God knows that you have a maximum of 200 years to live if you live in the perfect way.
Every cigarette you smoke there will go 1 minute off from your optimal lifespan.
And so with every action.
Thus yes He knows your optimal lifespan but not when you will die, as it's your choice to smoke or not to smoke, of course UNLESS He speaks His word over you that you will die on time x, then you are predestinated.If you think that God knows when you will die, then why will you take your son or daughter or mother or father or whoever to a doctor to heal him/her.
The doctor is useless, if God has determined that your son will live 87 years than it is even not needed to feed him when he is just a baby. God's word is will and if He decided 87 years of life for you son than do not feed him or take him to a doctor, God will take care of him and he will survive till he reaches 87.Salam Bender.
Salam Brother Someone? this reply applies for you as well.]
The way I see it is - your views do not add up with the following verses of Qur?an
3154 (And) later, from after the distress, He sent down upon you security ? slumber veiled a faction of you while certainly a faction themselves made their souls anxious believing about God beyond the truth ?assumptions of ignorance ? saying, ?Is there anything for us from the command?? Say, ?Indeed the command ? all of it ? is for God?. They hide in their souls what they do not make apparent to you. They say, ?If there happened to be anything for us in the command we would not have been killed here.? Say, ?If you happened to be in your houses, those upon whom murder was booked would have surely come out towards their death-beds.? And so that God could test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts, and God is Knowledgeable of what (you) have in the breast.
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1049 Say, ?I neither have power to harm my soul, nor to benefit (it) ? except whatever God wills. For every community there is a term ? so when comes their term there is no delaying by an hour, nor is there any advancing of it.?
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7185 Do they not watch over the empire of the heavens and the earth ? and whatever God has created of things ? and perhaps that their term has actually come near? So, in what narrative (ٍ after this will they put faith?
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3134 Indeed God ? with Him is the knowledge of the hour. And He sends down the rain ? and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul can figure what it will earn tomorrow and no soul figures in which land it will die. Indeed Allah is Knowledgeable, Aware.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
Especially if one takes your understanding, the claim in 3154 appears like an empty threat. In fact if I go by your logic our birth is also not decided by God ? it all depends on whether our parents chose to mate etc. Exalted be He! Above what they imply of Him.
By the way why are we going to hell if you murder someone? When you stand before Allah, you can defend yourself with
"well I was just helping you God.
I killed him when he was 35 years old and because the poor guy indeed died means that you already had determined that the poor guy will day at 35.
So I do not understand why you are judging me God, I was just helping you. I am killing in Your name."I know that for some my view on this is shocking as this makes Allah not almighty according to some, but this is not the case.
Almighty is when you can do whatever you will without limits. And that is Allah, He does what He wills, that is Al Mighty.I think you missed the point. Of course He can give me a brain damage or make me a zombie so that I will loose even to a frog. That is not the question I am asking.
I have clarified my understanding before, doing so once again, perchance someone listens.
Our parents do not create us or determine our birth. It is God who decides when each of us will come to the world. Our Parents just play along God?s will to earn the right of playing the role of parents, which too is predetermined for them. That is why our obligation to God supersedes our obligation to our parents.
The food that we eat is not ?produced? by us. Allah produces everything. We merely toil in the land and seas to earn our living which has been predestined. That is why we eat everything in the name of God.
When our children become sick and we go to the doctor, we are not fighting against death. We are merely playing our role predetermined by God to earn our satisfaction that we tried our best. That is why when our children die in spite of our best effort we have to accept the fate graciously.
Similarly when we earn the destination of the Garden or the Fire, we are not creating our destiny. We are merely earning our destiny. Guidance is only with God. He guides to the straight way whomever He wills.
Of course there will be people who will claim on the day of rising that they only executed God?s will. So did Iblis when he says? ?because you let me astray? (Ref 716)?. But their execuse will not hold any water. While God determined our destiny (including that of Iblis) He gave us the free will to earn that destiny. We are responsible for how we excercised that free will? not the outcome thereof. And God is not unjust by an atom?s weight.
I have a couple of verses for you
31403166
31675725
2038
And there are so many many more verses like this.
And think about the messengers, think about all the inspirations you get daily.The word ?? can be translated as ?And to know..? as well as ?And to make known...?. Shahih International follows the second meaning in their translation, for example. I accept the second understanding for these verses because that is the only understanding which is consistent with other verses in Qur'an. God does not need to know anything. He knows what is in our hearts. But He creates the tests so that we can know ourselves what we actually stand for. And so that we can earn our destiny.
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I know that most people of the world will remain confused about predestination because we humans are too arrogant to let go the notion that at the end of the day we are in control. Generally I try to ignore this debate? because this is not so much a question of understanding that can be explained, this is more of a question of humility ? on which we have to put Faith.
The God that I am slave to is not an entity existing In parallel to the entities of this universe ? playing with them some power game. God is the authority that is the ultimate Originator of every bit of information that makes up the universe? He Originates and sustains all matters, all energy, all senses and all consciousness. He is the One who feeds and is not fed (Ref 614). This feeding is not merely in terms of food ? it is in terms of information / decision as well. No one takes a decision and feeds back to God ? it is He who takes all decisions and feeds back to each of the pockets of consciousness that He himself originated. To each of these individual pockets of consciousness (which are we) it appears that they are taking these decisions, but in reality they are merely quarantined parts of the ever flowing consciousness Which has caused the universe to be and Which owns the existence, the actions and destinations of each of those pockets with absolute authority. So, it is not a question for me whether I have a free will independent of God - rather, I submit only to the authority who is driving my conscious experience including my free will. Call Him God, call Him Allah, call Him the Almighty, call Him the Brahman, or call Him the Spirit of the universe ? to that Supreme Authority I am slave to and to Him will I return.
With this I rest my case. May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Arman
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It is still you who decide to mate and not God/Rabb. Rabb controls what happens with the fetus and what spirit/person is placed within that body, or if you even make the female conceive.
But, there is no total predestination and one builds their own destiny. There can be and is set predetermined events that will occur based on determinations of Rabb, but they are flexible and dynamic and a growing seed (i.e. person) will find themselves within a predetermination depending on their suitability (worthiness). The World is way more advanced than you make it and we have an active role in it.
A person may also be born into the role of prophet due to a successful previous cycle and then unconsciously grow into understanding that. There they have to fulfill what has been prophesied regarding this, i.e. if there are certain conditions that has to be met, e.g. Isaiah said that the next prophet has to learn to choose between good and bad (ignorance).
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Bender.
Fine, let us see if I can explain further. According to Qoran, GOD punished the people who transgressed (Noah s, Lot s. etc...)
Now, surely GOD was aware of their destiny? After all GOD is just .
Also GOD was very much aware of this character and his destiny in
11111113
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam Bender.
Salam Brother Someone? this reply applies for you as well.]
The way I see it is - your views do not add up with the following verses of Qur?an
Especially if one takes your understanding, the claim in 3154 appears like an empty threat.
Salaam,
I already gave how I understand 3141 in a earlier post.
For the moment, I will only comment on 3154.last part of your translation
"...They say, ?If there happened to be anything for us in the command we would not have been killed here.? Say, ?If you happened to be in your houses, those upon whom murder was booked would have surely come out towards their death-beds.? And so that God could test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts, and God is Knowledgeable of what (you) have in the breast."RED The dead can not talk to one who is alive and vice versa. The word qatal does not mean dead/killed/murder/etc.
GREEN A test does not make any sense, when things are already predestinated, because what ever you do was predestinated and thus a test makes no sense.This is how I understand the 3154 broadly.
Those who Allah want to test have nowhere to hide, the test will come to them wherever they are even if they want to run away from itIn fact if I go by your logic our birth is also not decided by God ? it all depends on whether our parents chose to mate etc. Exalted be He! Above what they imply of Him.
I never said that and that can not be derived from what I said. Allah is the one who starts your life whenever He wills.
When our children become sick and we go to the doctor, we are not fighting against death. We are merely playing our role predetermined by God to earn our satisfaction that we tried our best. That is why when our children die in spite of our best effort we have to accept the fate graciously.
RED I do not believe that He is letting us believe that we do this or that by our own choice while He had already predestinated everything for us.
The murderers murder, the rapers rape, the oppressors oppress, those who do good do good, etc not because it was their choice but because Allah predestinated this for them. This is not The God I believe in. The God I believe in is just and gives every soul what it earns by it own hands.Similarly when we earn the destination of the Garden or the Fire, we are not creating our destiny. We are merely earning our destiny. Guidance is only with God. He guides to the straight way whomever He wills.
Of course there will be people who will claim on the day of rising that they only executed God?s will. So did Iblis when he says? ?because you let me astray? (Ref 716)?. But their execuse will not hold any water. While God determined our destiny (including that of Iblis) He gave us the free will to earn that destiny. We are responsible for how we excercised that free will? not the outcome thereof. And God is not unjust by an atom?s weight.There is no earning or a free will a predestinated world.
btw. No one is able to lie against Allah, including Iblies. "aghwaytanee" does not mean astray.The word ?? can be translated as ?And to know..? as well as ?And to make known...?. Shahih International follows the second meaning in their translation, for example. I accept the second understanding for these verses because that is the only understanding which is consistent with other verses in Qur'an. God does not need to know anything. He knows what is in our hearts. But He creates the tests so that we can know ourselves what we actually stand for. And so that we can earn our destiny.
What we stand for is then also predestinated. I can not see how you make this logic work for yourself.
btw when the quran says that Allah will be The Judge on the day we rise, what exactly will He judge if He already had decided that I will do exactly what He programmed in me?May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Arman
I believe that differences in these kind of subjects is not that important, because we all have different views, if it's not on this subject then for sure there is some other sensitive subject where we will differ in understanding.
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Bender.
Fine, let us see if I can explain further. According to Qoran, GOD punished the people who transgressed (Noah s, Lot s. etc...)
Now, surely GOD was aware of their destiny? After all GOD is just .
Also GOD was very much aware of this character and his destiny in
11111113
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace GL,
RED According to my understanding of the quran there is a limit. When one trespasses that limit then the future does not look that bright for him/her.
BLUE Tbh I have absolutely no idea what chapter 111 is about. Not only 111 but a lot of those short chapters.
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There is no earning or a free will a predestinated world.
btw. No one is able to lie against Allah, including Iblies. "aghwaytanee" does not mean astray.
What we stand for is then also predestinated. I can not see how you make this logic work for yourself.
btw when the quran says that Allah will be The Judge on the day we rise, what exactly will He judge if He already had decided that I will do exactly what He programmed in me?Salam Bender.
I see how you are looking for room in Qur?an to support your ideas. I?ll not attempt a rebuttal. Each of us are responsible for our own understanding.
I?ll however try to answer your question above in red; perhaps, this will help you or someone else
God has not programmed anything in you. He has caused you to be. He has caused you to be the way you are. The way you are today, the way you will be tomorrow. The way you are born, the way you die ? all of it. He can and will judge what He causes to be. Like an author judges each of the characters in his novel and decides how each character end up being presented to the audience. Nothing can be held against God, like nothing can be held against the author for doing to the characters he himself caused to be in the first place.
I am, because My Master wants me to be. And my Master has absolute authority to judge me how He led me to be. It is only a mercy from my Master that He has given me the ability to think about the choices that I have and make up my mind about those choices and I own only the choices that I make, not the outcome thereof. But those choices are no more independent of God's will than each wave of the ocean is independent of the ocean. Just like ocean is the platform upon which the waves exist - God's will is the platform upon which this universe exists.
Let me make up a case to illustrate how we are responsible for our choices about our actions but not the predestined outcome of the actions. Let?s say I conspire to kill my boss. I give him a cup of tea with poison. If Allah hasn?t prescribed death for him, one way or another he will skip the tea/poison and survive. But I will be held responsible to my Master for attempting a murder. On the other hand ? consider a different case - maybe I gave my boss a cup of exotic tea with completely benign intensions. My boss has a rare condition of extreme allergy to that drink which even he didn?t know. He drinks it and dies of allergy. That is the death of that person determined by God ? like every death is. Although on strict cause and effect consideration my action has killed my boss ? I?ll not be judged as a murderer. Because I am only responsible for what is in my heart.
The test is real. The test is for us. We are the ones who need to discover ourselves through these tests. God is the one who sets the tests to lead us to the destination that each of us deserve. But yes, on absolute basis God owns the responsibility of every action of every being in this universe. Because He causes everything to be. He owns the crime of the criminal and the suffering of the victim. He created many of us to struggle in His path and then rightfully earn the fruit thereof. He also created many of us to get astray and rightfully earn the result thereof. That?s why Qur?an says that Allah destined many of the men and jins for the hell (Ref 7179). Indeed, He captures every point of observation and participates in every joy and pain through each point of observation that He created to explore His own creation. So, for Him it is a zero sum affair.
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I don't recall saying that Iblis lied to Allah. That Allah led Iblis astray is of course a truth - it is all part of His plan. A being getting deviated due to its own choice and due to God's will are the opposite sides of the same truth. Because every being is caused to be by God.
BTW, what is your understanding of the term "aghwaytanee"? I took my understanding from Lane
http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0033%3Aentry%3DAgwAhu
But I am open to learning.
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I believe that differences in these kind of subjects is not that important, because we all have different views, if it's not on this subject then for sure there is some other sensitive subject where we will differ in understanding.
This is the point where I do agree with you. The test is not how good we are at theology or how knowledgeable we are. Allah equipped each of us with different level of understanding, so we are only accountable to make the best use of that understanding which we have. Of course there will be differences in opinion and understanding. The real test is whether we can hold on to our faith by acting righteously throughout our life. As long as we agree on that we can coexist and grow together. And that takes me back to the point from where I started this thread.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman
