Question regarding transsexualism in the Quran

[Sinem]

Hm, one thing i'd like to add though, and that is that they are not 'mentall illness' but 'physical illness'. It's not the soul that needs fixing, because the soul is eternal and can not be fixed/can only get fixed by God himself.
It is not right to try to adapt the soul to the body. It is right to try to adapt the body to the soul, though. (but one should not rush into such things, as i've repeatedly said, because getting to know one's own soul enough to understand it does take many years)
Additional body modifications (plastic surgery) is also a controversial point, on which my opinion is that if it is done as defense towards people who would harm them, it is justified, but if it is done for astethic reasons, it is wrong. (trying to look realistic vs. trying to look pretty). Altough looking pretty in asian standars is considered to be a sign of 'working hard'. I'm not sure yet how to judge that though.

Also, i'd like to point out the difference between homosexuality and homoromanticism. The first one is pure sexual attraction, the second is pure emotional attraction. Does someone base their choices on sexual attraction (or similarly even more shallow things like money or politics), then it is a sin (this is also true for heterosexuals, bisexuals, asexuals, etc.) does someone base their choices on emotional attraction, it is never a sin. A soul falling in love with another soul is the most beautiful thing there is.
For example i don't feel sexually attracted to my girlfriend (who is aware of my gender issues, and rather supportive about it), but i do feel an enormous emotional attraction. I don't see this as a sin for either her or me. It's not a lie either, because 1) i'm totally honest about everything towards her and 2) my emotional attraction is very real.

I think i've stated before that 'having sex just for the sake of having sex' is a wrong thing, and any relationship based on that is a sin, no matter if it is heterosexual or homosexual.

And i'm not all negative about you guys. So far you've shown to be more open minded and willing to discuss things than the holebi community itself.

[fye]

Question you chose a girl as a mate and you speak of souls.
What do you small like is it a womens scent or a male's?
What's coming out of your pores defines a but of who you are
Maybe you are not sexually inclined to your girlfriend because of emotional reasons like having everything need I in a companion from simply being around her again a chemical is being pumped out of her pores.
You should never ignore the physical chemicals bio-chems or artifice chems.
You choose her can you choose her again blindfolded?
Please examine the chemical side of your soul theory and more the story of prophet Joseph when woman tried to pull him away from his "true self"
The part if him that "wouldn't do a thing like that"
It was only a matter of time before these women would get the idea to chemically attract Joseph to them
So ALLAH places him in jail for a time.

Being both make and female I'm sure you struggle with what to tell people but hopefully your done with those high school-ish days. You are who you are and want what you want, one helps you define the other maybe you just want peace of mind not to prove anything to anyone like everyone should. When it comes to instinct it's your eyes you want to avoid using if being with a guy seems gay to you then maybe your just a guy. The male is usually the dominant and stronger in DNA and genetics and even in language. Does any of this help with the way you see yourself?
Also the not wanting sexual relations with women is caused more by mental abuse from confused people trying to dictate your life. I'm sure you try to but there's this whole board on a fullcrum where you have to break the fullcrum and not remove the board.
Sex can't have anything to do with proving dad right or wrong and then you probably lose focus and say it's not the right time for me to make this decision.
Don't let anyone mess you up it's ALLAH who you should be on that balance for.
Peace

[Sinem]

Well, i'll explain more on that. The relationship started in a phase of denial. More or less in a last effort to prove i'm male. But i only went ahead with it because she was able to understand my feminin sides. I've talked to many many girls over summer and it all felt wrong, so i choose her because she was clearly different. Don't know, maybe she's mentally less female than others?

I do enjoy being physically with her, except sexually. But i don't think that would be different when being with a man. All things seem to suggest that i'm asexual when it comes to physical attraction and bisexual when it comes to mental attraction. Meaning that it's the personality i care about, not the sex. As long as i'm not forced in the male gender role, that's fine by me. I defenitely would feel better with being in a full female gender role, but i think it's good enough as it is with her. After all, i've talked to so many people in the past that i understand how rare it is to find someone i can have an emotional click with, considering my personality is extemely complex.

I've never been abused in my life and have no sexual traumas. I sexually just never felt as a man and always had the feeling that i should have been the woman instead.
Being with a guy doesnt seem gay to me, though. But it's been taking me almost 30 years to even consider the possiblity that i might be attracted to them. It's a possibility. And yes, in my fantasy, i usually prefer men. But one should never confuse fantasy with what someone really wants or needs. (altouhg lot of people aren't emotionally stable enough to see the difference) Besides, i don't need to fantasize about my GF, because she's real.
I for sure hate being dominant. The natural thing for me is feeling equal. I always hated doing things alone. And society here is one that forces you to do everything alone. Which is just unnatural to me.

The only right thing i can do is being totally honest with my girlfriend, and that's what i'm doing. And being honest to everyone involved. Only by being open about it, i can find my right path. Even if that means getting hurt or getting ridiculed.

[huruf]

I don't really know wht is the interet in puttig avery perso into boxes ad say these are the homos, these are the issies, these arethe viragos, these are the male haters these are...

The fact is that each person is her own, her own genetic self and her own evolution of tht genetic self and that the mania of socity of havig by all means every persn fitted into one of he boxes condemns many peole to suffering for feeling abnormal, a misfit, somethinng she should not be.

Of course there are asexuals, why houldn't there be. Just as there are eople who have a very weak sense of smell ornot very gregarious. So what there are many other that are gregarious to compensate. And then there arethose who constantly hammer that wome are these and menn are that as a univerfsal rule, even though that universal ruly is only achieved i imagination and tht the attemppt to make it intothe real existence harms many people who do not fit in it, cannot it in it and do not want to fit i it so that those who push for such unifeormation of humanity ca feel vndicatedand selfsatisfied.

Salaam

[Comrox]

None of you should be obliged to support us. But if you truly value the word of God, you should also 'let us be'. Telling your opinion is totally okay. But punishing us isn't. Please don't say 'you are wrong'. Please instead say 'i think you are wrong'.

And @comrox, inevitably, this will be an eternal struggle, as long as God creates homosexuals and transsexuals, they will try to get into dialoge because they want to be recognised as a creation of God. Why does he creates them? That's his decision. He will have a reason for it, and if you ever have the chance to meet him, he will tell the reason why he makes people like that. He has a path for everyone, and for some people, that path is unusual, whilst for other people, that path is very normal. Also the way people act around those who they meet is part of God's plan, as he wants you to meet these people, and wants you to get into discussions. But what he expects you do to is a mystery for us. We can only use logic. Though i might be using 'female logic which according to men is flawed anyway'.

I don't really know wht is the interet in puttig avery perso into boxes ad say these are the homos, these are the issies, these arethe viragos, these are the male haters these are...

The fact is that each person is her own, her own genetic self and her own evolution of tht genetic self and that the mania of socity of havig by all means every persn fitted into one of he boxes condemns many peole to suffering for feeling abnormal, a misfit, somethinng she should not be.

Of course there are asexuals, why houldn't there be. Just as there are eople who have a very weak sense of smell ornot very gregarious. So what there are many other that are gregarious to compensate. And then there arethose who constantly hammer that wome are these and menn are that as a univerfsal rule, even though that universal ruly is only achieved i imagination and tht the attemppt to make it intothe real existence harms many people who do not fit in it, cannot it in it and do not want to fit i it so that those who push for such unifeormation of humanity ca feel vndicatedand selfsatisfied.

Salaam

bravo

We all have our own paths to lead. Wherever they lead, they must be our own.

[huruf]

bravo

We all have our own paths to lead. Wherever they lead, they must be our own.

Indeed, and there is so much interet in deriving rules from the Qur'n but we rarely contemplte the Qur'an from he point of view of how much width and depth of fredom it leaves to people to be themselves with just the limits it sets without deducing fantsies from the own views or he societal views of the moment. And the limits the Qur'an sets, just like the limits acknowledged by the bet in societies and the best societies are those minimally necessary to avoid that ome peole imose on others on whatever account.

We sould really xamie the Qur'an for seeing those things that we take for gratd but for which the Qur'an does nto vouch at all and the injuctions to keep from gossiping, indiscretion and slandering. The Qur'an give as plenty of room, why do we make so may efforts to restrict that roomand make it smaller?

Whe we restrict the individual room by any means or for whatever reaso we ar giving ouselves into the power fo the mobs, the mobs being fromthe government to the rule of the majority or the media or any power other than God, God who manifests trhough our own conscience, our fitra. And we do have the ower and the right to make mistakes and also to correct and redress mistakes without that being an acknowledgemet of any worldly poer or authority.

Salaam

[Yosemite]

Greetings.

First of all i'd like to apologise to saying that some people don't do any effort, because in fact, i do know know if they did or not.

Now about your reaction it does defenitely not support it. Neither does it condemn it. It is neutral. So people following the book should be neutral about it, and judge about the wether or not the person in case has evil intentions for doing it, but not for doing it in itself. (just like with many sins, they have to be put in their context)

And about the soy argument gender-diversity and different sexualities have always been there, in almost each and every culture. Though in thinly populated cultures like the classic Arabian age, it was rare, so not considered of much relevance. Thing is that our population is growing massively to the point of overpopulation. Besides, all linked articles do really sound like scams science. Though that soy thing might be a signficant catalyst, it's in no way to blame for the existance of diversity between humans.

From a standpoint of evolution, then homosexuality and transsexuality are a perfect answer to overpopulation. If it happens in other animals, it happens for a reason. Those reasons are either protecting the species against underpopulation or against overpopulation (as overpopulation will lead to extinction too). Now evolution is God. It's Gods plan for the universe, which none of our humans knows until it happens.

None of you should be obliged to support us. But if you truly value the word of God, you should also 'let us be'. Telling your opinion is totally okay. But punishing us isn't. Please don't say 'you are wrong'. Please instead say 'i think you are wrong'.

And @comrox, inevitably, this will be an eternal struggle, as long as God creates homosexuals and transsexuals, they will try to get into dialoge because they want to be recognised as a creation of God. Why does he creates them? That's his decision. He will have a reason for it, and if you ever have the chance to meet him, he will tell the reason why he makes people like that. He has a path for everyone, and for some people, that path is unusual, whilst for other people, that path is very normal. Also the way people act around those who they meet is part of God's plan, as he wants you to meet these people, and wants you to get into discussions. But what he expects you do to is a mystery for us. We can only use logic. Though i might be using 'female logic which according to men is flawed anyway'.

"different" sexualities and "gender diversity" is a meme

the fact is this the vast majority of the people born on earth are either male or female, and only an infinitesimal portion is NOT that

it's all about statistics

we can't change society as if transexuality was the norm or as if homosexuality was the norm, and in the west, they are changing their societies as if homosexuald, transexuality, and other such abnormalities were the norm

[Sinem]

"different" sexualities and "gender diversity" is a meme

the fact is this the vast majority of the people born on earth are either male or female, and only an infinitesimal portion is NOT that

it's all about statistics

we can't change society as if transexuality was the norm or as if homosexuality was the norm, and in the west, they are changing their societies as if homosexuald, transexuality, and other such abnormalities were the norm

I know i shouldnt respond to trolls. But i'm friendly, so i will reply.
It's obviously not a meme. If it were a meme, it would be a new thing, popularised by the internet. But if you had some knowledge about it you'd see it clearly isn't. Internet just makes them more visible. No-one ever has claimed to be trans or gay because it's a fashionist thing.
The reason people like us are rising in numbers is not because internet popularises it. It's because a lot has not been registrated in the past, and therefore, present-day statistics are more reliable. (besides, archeology seems to suggest it's always been there and it's always been a relatively normal thing. Though generally not accepted, it's always been there)

Not exactly what's happening here in the west though. Society is still rather heteronormative and people not fitting into the binary still don't have a lot of rights.
It is also a statistic that people not fitting into heteronormativity or cisgender are significant in number and my estimations are that they are around 50-75%. That is of course including people who aren't far from the cisgender heteronormative, but are distinct enough to consider them different. (mostly making up bisexual, bigendered, asexual and agendered people) Whilst homosexuality and the transgender spectrum are estimated to be 5 to 20% of the population. Official statistics will rather say 1 to 5%, but we all know there exist a lot of closeted people and people in denial.
My estimations are that heterosexuality and cisgenders are making up a mere 25 to 50%, so claiming it's the norm is just as ridiculous.

It's clear you're underestimating how normal these 'abnormalities' are. Statistics don't mean a lot in some places, because in countries where 'abnormal' people are oppressed, you'll find that the vast majority is hiding it or in denial, therefore the statistics will be low. For example, China is 100% atheist. But nobody really believes that over 1 and a half billion people are all atheist... Whilst in countries where these things are normal (for example Thailand, Philippines, even muslim countries like Indonesia), you see that lot of people are trans/gay and that meeting trans and gay persons is indeed a daily occurence and you're certain to have one in your family. They aren't accepted, but claiming they don't exist is impossible over there.

So unfortunately, your fact is not a fact at all. So thanks for trying to anger me by trolling, but it didn't work, i'm not angry at all.

We can indeed not fully change society to minorities. But society should accomodate for major minories, because they're simply too large to ignore. You can't go claiming the majority of people fit into the cisgender heteronormative idea, because they clearly don't. And the Quran does not claim that either. Because the Quran values scientific research, and therefore scientific breaktroughs will allow you to read the same passages in the Quran in a different light.
Are we the norm? No. Are we normal? Yes.

If you have trouble accepting things that aren't even new. Well, then i'm sorry for you, but sooner or later you'll have to accept that some things exist, even if you'd wish they didn't. You can't just simply ignore things you don't understand. You can't extinguish us either. We'll keep coming back. That's how humans were created. If you make a point out of ignoring God's creation, i'm sure God won't exactly feel flattered by that behaviour.

[huruf]

I thin that Yosemite puts people in boxes but from the side of the tontestatarians of Yosemite there is also some puttin ginto boxes. I do not doubt that some people are genueinely determined at birth as to their sexual atractions, but, for instance, it is not true that "No-one ever has claimed to be trans or gay because it's a fashionist thing." ot may be claiming it, but out of curiosity in part and out of being not in the norm, which mamny people at certain times like very much to do, that I am sure exists and I hav known them.

It does matter how many people this or that, the very Qur'an says that the majority will lead you astray. Attemptin no to be the majority (run of the mill) for some peopple is a great temptation. There are many reason which are nnot necessarily sexual why a peron may end up changing or choosing something willfully not because by nature he or she is forced to.

The point is that many peoppple, may be most of us are conditionned and there are very few things that are solely "natural". The sentimental, emotional, males who may be like dressing up and show tendencies qualified as feminine, indeendent of ny exual likings have it very difficult and in fact the best part for them traditionally is to turn outright sisies because otherwise they just cannot break their own emotional a psychologial make up to satisfy "society". That is not a choiceor a natural condition but one forced on them because other issues are closed.

Equally, many women turn lesbians simply because males are too much for them to ut up ith and they want a life with less struggle and and more emotional and companionship rewards.

In fact one might think that a portion of same gender attractions are deried from the fact the different gender one are simply too costly in human terms.

What is certain is that the end station of ending up wantig or having a sex companion of different sex or same sex is not reachd necessarily by eery eprson by the same way or for the same reasons. To pretend that it is so would be one more way to box people in.

Salaam

[Yosemite]

It does matter how many people this or that, the very Qur'an says that the majority will lead you astray.

you made a fallacious argument

i may be a minority among a group of LGBT people and they would be the ones leading me astray

im not talking about cults, or organized groups, or sects
i'm talking about a biological fact

i do not know a chinese person, but i can safely say that, through the empirical research that has happened concerning this subject, the probability that the first chinese person i ever meet is a normal person, not transsexual or not homo, would be a heterosexual cis chinese person

it's a question of mathematics

The point is that many peoppple, may be most of us are conditionned

research shows otherwise

society doesn't condition us to be male or female, real life experiments on children has been made, it was catastrophic, it was a nightmare for the kids, they would be forced to be the sex they are not, and they went through deeply traumatising events

everything is natural, i'm not talking about natural, you're saying i made an appeal to nature which i did not, i said that by observation and through empirical research, the majority of people born on earth (as of now, unless we pollute water sources with estrogen agents or estrogen like agents) are cis heterosexual people

[Man_of_Faith]

The human body has a sex and an identity bound to this body through the flow of hormones. The instinct of the body will be driven by the body's sex.

That does however not account for what decisions one may make detached from the body by their spirit. One can however not escape from the "whispers" (suggestions) of the body with its instinct depending on its sex. In some cases it seems the bodily structure is disturbed and some bodies have an anomalous flow of hormones causing them to possess a deviating sexual orientation. This is not the standard natural orientation.

Instincts can be causing real personality problems and it is hard to resist their call even if one would like to, especially those of the reproduction functionality and intimate adherence to a mate.

I personally think one should abstain from sex whatsoever to more easily handle its calling. Otherwise it is easy to become a slave to the flow of hormones. According to that factor in homosexuality it would be more logical to be detached from the mating completely as intimate homosexual interaction does not lead to reproduction. It is all about physical stimulation and thus primitive pleasure.

But homosexual or not is a preference, just as it is a preference to abstain from copulation at all. I would call it vain and a waste of resources to go through a transgender operation for the sake of pleasing the beast of oneself, but that is my opinion. We have no reason to dislike such people who let have such surgery or think less of them, it is something they themselves choose to do. It would be natural if one would like a "normal" (sterotypical) life according to the instinct to undergo that surgery and I would not blame them if they like to live to indulge. It is easy to fall for the instinct (satan).

Be well
Amenuel

[huruf]

you made a fallacious argument

i may be a minority among a group of LGBT people and they would be the ones leading me astray

im not talking about cults, or organized groups, or sects
i'm talking about a biological fact

i do not know a chinese person, but i can safely say that, through the empirical research that has happened concerning this subject, the probability that the first chinese person i ever meet is a normal person, not transsexual or not homo, would be a heterosexual cis chinese person

it's a question of mathematics

research shows otherwise

society doesn't condition us to be male or female, real life experiments on children has been made, it was catastrophic, it was a nightmare for the kids, they would be forced to be the sex they are not, and they went through deeply traumatising events

everything is natural, i'm not talking about natural, you're saying i made an appeal to nature which i did not, i said that by observation and through empirical research, the majority of people born on earth (as of now, unless we pollute water sources with estrogen agents or estrogen like agents) are cis heterosexual people

Yosemite, you have not answered me or anything I said. You did not understand any of it and it is logical since I was not answering you or addressing you at all nor anything that you may have said except as an introduction sayig that which I was not addressing.

So while I have nothing against you putting forward your views as many times as you like, I point clearly out that what you have said has not relation with what I was getting at nor akes it any clearer or more understandable.

Salaam

[Sinem]

@ Man Of Faith Your post seems to assume that gender dysphoric feelings are driven by instinctual feelings, whilst it's driven by feelings by the soul. It's the male instinctual feelings that cause the dysphoria, the detachement from their own body. No matter how hard you try to contol these instincts or not, if they don't align to your soul, it causes pain to your soul.
A transgender operation has as purpose to try to align the body and their instincts as much as possible to the identity of the soul. Not vice versa.
Doing surgery is not 'giving in to the instinct', it is exactly done to eliminate the instinct. It is exactly resisting those male instincts what causes pain in the soul of a transgender female.
Please understand that transsexuality is not a 'sexual orientation' (therefore i prefer the use of the word transgender), and sexual preference is totally irrelevant to their 'decision' (altough it isn't really a decision, as God made us with this dysphoria, for a reason only he knows)
For the same reason, a few posts ago, i explained the difference between sexual attraction and emotional attraction between people. Homosexuality is also a wrong word (i prefer to say a word like gay) as it implies people are only doing it for sexual reasons, ignoring the fact that a significant part of them does it for emotional reasons. Again it is not a choice, as you can't control your soul. You can only try to control the body, and that's the whole point of the discussion.

[Yosemite]

I know i shouldnt respond to trolls. But i'm friendly, so i will reply.
It's obviously not a meme. If it were a meme, it would be a new thing, popularised by the internet. But if you had some knowledge about it you'd see it clearly isn't. Internet just makes them more visible. No-one ever has claimed to be trans or gay because it's a fashionist thing.
The reason people like us are rising in numbers is not because internet popularises it. It's because a lot has not been registrated in the past, and therefore, present-day statistics are more reliable. (besides, archeology seems to suggest it's always been there and it's always been a relatively normal thing. Though generally not accepted, it's always been there)

Not exactly what's happening here in the west though. Society is still rather heteronormative and people not fitting into the binary still don't have a lot of rights.
It is also a statistic that people not fitting into heteronormativity or cisgender are significant in number and my estimations are that they are around 50-75%. That is of course including people who aren't far from the cisgender heteronormative, but are distinct enough to consider them different. (mostly making up bisexual, bigendered, asexual and agendered people) Whilst homosexuality and the transgender spectrum are estimated to be 5 to 20% of the population. Official statistics will rather say 1 to 5%, but we all know there exist a lot of closeted people and people in denial.
My estimations are that heterosexuality and cisgenders are making up a mere 25 to 50%, so claiming it's the norm is just as ridiculous.

It's clear you're underestimating how normal these 'abnormalities' are. Statistics don't mean a lot in some places, because in countries where 'abnormal' people are oppressed, you'll find that the vast majority is hiding it or in denial, therefore the statistics will be low. For example, China is 100% atheist. But nobody really believes that over 1 and a half billion people are all atheist... Whilst in countries where these things are normal (for example Thailand, Philippines, even muslim countries like Indonesia), you see that lot of people are trans/gay and that meeting trans and gay persons is indeed a daily occurence and you're certain to have one in your family. They aren't accepted, but claiming they don't exist is impossible over there.

So unfortunately, your fact is not a fact at all. So thanks for trying to anger me by trolling, but it didn't work, i'm not angry at all.

We can indeed not fully change society to minorities. But society should accomodate for major minories, because they're simply too large to ignore. You can't go claiming the majority of people fit into the cisgender heteronormative idea, because they clearly don't. And the Quran does not claim that either. Because the Quran values scientific research, and therefore scientific breaktroughs will allow you to read the same passages in the Quran in a different light.
Are we the norm? No. Are we normal? Yes.

If you have trouble accepting things that aren't even new. Well, then i'm sorry for you, but sooner or later you'll have to accept that some things exist, even if you'd wish they didn't. You can't just simply ignore things you don't understand. You can't extinguish us either. We'll keep coming back. That's how humans were created. If you make a point out of ignoring God's creation, i'm sure God won't exactly feel flattered by that behaviour.

mathematics is not troll

"It is also a statistic that people not fitting into heteronormativity or cisgender are significant in number and my estimations are that they are around 50-75%."

a number that came out of nowhere

it's a fact that lgbtism is a trend in the USA today, and the cool kids all want to be some kind of special snowflake

we see where this is taking the USA, they started talking about STD epidemics

bravo!

i'll give you a few sources because all you seem capable of doing is talk emotionally

http//usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-05-23-Sex-survey-revelations-on-gay-identity_n.htm
http//www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/14/citing-exploding-hiv-epidemic-who-says-for-first-time-all-gay-men-should-take-antitretroviral-drugs/
http//www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/
http//www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/7/study-sees-gays-as-17-percent-of-population/
http//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/23/AR2010092306828.html
http//healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/study-20-of-homosexual-men-are-hiv-positive-but-only-half-know-it/

it's a fact that western style LGBTism is wicked and based on marxist beliefs

[Man_of_Faith]

A soul does not have gender, Sinem.

It is the body which gives gender belonging with its flow of hormones. It is the body you have to control, like you write, but being homosexual or not is due to the body with its instinct and not the Spirit (soul). If you did not have the body you would not have a desire for any gender or sexual intercourse for that sake.

The discussion from my part was to point out that such desires to redesign the body to be another sex is from the instinct as you spiritually have no logical reason to undergo such procedures. If the gender identity causes a problem in any person then they are identifying themselves with the body they are within for sure. This is not wrong but it is not right either as it is not the correct focus in this world, i.e. bodily focus is not a remedy to get out of it.

Homosexuality can have its roots in various reasons such as that the soul has had a female sex body in the past and made a strong imprint to it. Any other explanation does not make sense since they seem trapped within the body of a different sex yet the body has its authentic design and flow of hormones. This is when the soul causes homosexuality. Having gender identity whatsoever in your life is nothing to strive for and could thus explain the reason why they recycled into another body rather than reach salvation.

I have also periodically had such problems, but I have let them be and instead accept the situation and learn to live with the functionality of this body in which I was placed with the Spirit that is mine. What I would like and who I am are two different things. I have also learned to focus on much more important matters than to waste my time with bodily impulses.

Be well
Amenuel

[imrankhawaja]

Homosexuality can have its roots in various reasons such as that the soul has had a female sex body in the past

you make me laugh buddy rotfl

[Sinem]

mathematics is not troll

"It is also a statistic that people not fitting into heteronormativity or cisgender are significant in number and my estimations are that they are around 50-75%."

a number that came out of nowhere

it's a fact that lgbtism is a trend in the USA today, and the cool kids all want to be some kind of special snowflake

we see where this is taking the USA, they started talking about STD epidemics

bravo!

i'll give you a few sources because all you seem capable of doing is talk emotionally

http//usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-05-23-Sex-survey-revelations-on-gay-identity_n.htm
http//www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/14/citing-exploding-hiv-epidemic-who-says-for-first-time-all-gay-men-should-take-antitretroviral-drugs/
http//www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/
http//www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/7/study-sees-gays-as-17-percent-of-population/
http//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/23/AR2010092306828.html
http//healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/study-20-of-homosexual-men-are-hiv-positive-but-only-half-know-it/

it's a fact that western style LGBTism is wicked and based on marxist beliefs

No, mathematics is no troll, but you didn't use mathematics in a relevant way. Yes i talk a lot emotionally. Because that's exactly what gender dysphoria is about. And also because girls use more emotion, rather than cold math.
You can't explain everything with math. If you don't believe in anything emotional or spiritual, i'm afraid you're at the wrong place.

You sure don't seem to have much understanding about how 'The West' really is. There is no such thing as gay/trans being fashionable. Being gay/trans is extremely tough, so someone doing it for the fashion will be getting desillusioned very, very quick. Maybe famous artists can get away with it, but i never once considered big stars as representative and most people who are past their teens don't consider them as role models either.
My estimation was not based on gay or trans, which i both estimated between 5 and 20, and 5 are the official estimates here in the Benelux at least. But mostly the big amount of bisexual, asexual, bigender and agender people. A lot of people you know personally do fit into the spectrums of these, but because they resemble heteronormativity enough, it causes no significant dysphoria to them. However, to claim the majority of people is cisgender or hundred percent heterosexual is just being ignorant.
But i also said it's an estimation. I hope you understand the meaning of that world. Statistics are somewhat useless in this subjects, because the enourmous amount of closeted people. Estimations are based on logically extending the statistics we have. Statistics are only the top of an Iceberg. Also it's no suprise the previous era you didn't hear about gay or trans people, because of the big influence of the ultraconservative Vatican (who are today thankfully reduced to insignificance in most of Europe (i'm not against Christians, don't get me wrong))
Claiming it's a fashion or trendy is by all means - forgive me the word - bullshit, and means you obviously haven't met any real trans or gay people. I'm an insider, so i know anyone who thinks its trendy gives up very soon. There's no way they'll survive in the circumstances we have to survive in. Doing it out of rebellion also has the same effect those who are doing it won't last very long. Do you really think it is that easy to out yourself as gay or trans here in the west? We're discriminated against just as much as people discriminate against muslims or other races. Yes, it could be a hell lot worse, but please don't think we're in an easy position. Yes we do have the luxury to express our opinion and i'm really thankful that i'm capable of doing so. Tolerated, but not accepted.
Though i must admit that those who do it out of rebellion or trend - though very small in numbers - are the ones that scream the loudest. But it's not hard to pick out those who are fake. They just scream empty slogans and repeat the same slogans. The only thing i'm repeating is that our numbers are very much higher than all of you suspect. But the real trans people are usually those who are afraid of showing it, and not those who scream the loudest for attention. Only when you manage to get in talks to closeted people, you get an idea of how big our numbers truly are.
I'm also repeating that these phenomenons are not only relatively common but also completely natural. The big historical presence of gay/trans people in asian, pacific and some native american cultures does also suggest it has nothing to do with western values. That it's certainly nothing new or trendy.
And i only have to laugh about that marxism comment. The west is extremely, but really extremely anti-marxist and anti-socialist the last couple of years. The public opinion is very much against these ideas. Despite having all their comforts to thank to those ideas.

The links you showed don't look very legit. I prefer to believe the excellent gender researchers here in Europe over random American media. Especially as the US is still rather conservative when it comes to LGBT-issues. And perhaps that's just my European pride that i can't take anything Americans say serious.
And the fact that you try to bring STD's into the discussion is just pure trolling. We all know sleeping with a cisgender heterosexual s*** or a transgender s*** makes no difference STD-wise, and that non-perverted trans and gay people are just as clean as non-perverted heterosexuals.
Though it is a fact that trans/gay people have a bigger risk to exposion, because the possible partners choices for us are very limited. So we are vulnerable to rotten apples if we get desperate. But that is not our fault, but rather that one guy/girl who goes to bed with everyone. Please don't compare us to the rotten apples. Yes, the gay clubbing scene is up to no good, but that is defenitely not representative. And no, the trans sex industy is up to no good, but that is defenitely not representative either. Despite for example how everyone thinks all trans people in Thailand are prostitutes, that's actually are very small number of the total trans population over there. There are just so many trans people that most people can't comprehend. Just like i met lot of trans people who are living normal everyday lives when i visited the Phillippines. They're defenitely not all infected, either. Yes, they are more vulnerable, and there are defenitely a bunch of rotten apples who ruin their reputation for the rest of the world. But seeing the reality is very different. (and refreshing to see them being 'normal&#039
Besides, STD-epidemics are nothing new. They've been recorded trough history a lot in other contexts as well, just like war and poverty. Is the whole of the southern half of Africa gay because there are so many STD's over there? No, of course not.

@Man Of Faith. I guess we have to agree to partially disagree about the soul. A soul does have a gender, just like the body has a gender, and the society also puts you in a gender. The society part is the one you should ignore, i think we all agree on that. And the other 2 can still be in conflict.
It's indeed possible that these feelings are traces of past lives. It sounds plausible to me.
I guess you can indeed say that most of desires are coming from the body (which are my desires for male heterosexuality, the ones that feel unnatural to me and cause me pain), but those feel in conflict with something which is obviously not directed by any hormones, and that is my heterosexual female desires. Where can that come from other than the soul? A brain defect probably, as my brain perceives different than my body perceives. But then i don't see what is wrong trying to correct the anomaly and adapt the body to how the brain is functioning. Adapting the brain to the body is not possible with current technology, and theraphies has so far proven to be ineffective. Except perhaps brainwashing, but i'm sure you're all against brainwashing. Besides, i think the brain is our connection to the soul (what we refer to methaphorically as the heart), so changing the connection to the soul will only cause more anomalies.
And spiritual logic be careful using the word 'logic', keep in mind that female logic can be very different different than male logic. Probably because they are better in connection with the spiritual side of things, but less good in connecting with the earhtly side of things. There are some things we girls 'just know', and very often, science ultimately proves us to be right (of course not always). Also please don't use math when discussing with people who are visuable bad with math. Neither use math when discussion spirituality. Yeah sure, the Quran does feature some intelligent math, but it's mostly a spiritual book. Female brains work different. And that transgender brains are partially female is an established fact. (which has been discussed in the beginning pages). And that my brain can't function in a male way is a proven the hard way. Though i am capable of imitating male behaviour, i personally don't understand one bit of how it's supposed to work and how i'm supposed to think. I'm sorry if i can't follow the same logic sometimes.
Everything i say sounds perfectly logical to me, and everything you say sounds perfectly logical to you. There's nothing as subjective as logic.

A lot of people have periodically problems like this (hence my claim that most people are bigender or agender). However, keep in mind that i'm not a teenager who's just exploring herself, but an adult who tried to fit in and failed many times. (my current solution is trying to set up my life (relationship, work, etc.) in a gender neutral way, so i can accomodate possible/likely future changes.

Anyway, i can keep on reacting, but i think i don't have anything more to add. I'll gladly debate about emotional/spiritual matters, or about the things i know from the official gender research facilities in my country or inside information from trans forums and the trans scene.
I unfortunately can not discuss with non-arguments and i will ignore links that don't look trustworthy. Neither will i discuss facts or claims that have no relevancy whatsoever.
No i'm not able to quote everything with sources either, as most things i say are from memory and i don't remember where exactly i read it. I apologise for not having the proper sources to back up my statements. If you choose not to take me serious because of that, i guess i can't blame you. I just hope you believe me and my intuition.

[HP_TECH]

You never addressed my arguments which came straight from Quran and Reason

[Yosemite]

No, mathematics is no troll, but you didn't use mathematics in a relevant way.

valid empirical studies are always relevant

explain how 1 in 5 LGBT homosexuals have HIV? what kind of lifestyle does a group has to lead to even get close to that?

Yes i talk a lot emotionally. Because that's exactly what gender dysphoria is about. And also because girls use more emotion, rather than cold math.
You can't explain everything with math. If you don't believe in anything emotional or spiritual, i'm afraid you're at the wrong place.

i am not at the wrong place, because the quran says to study the world around us, and that's what i do, studying the world around includes empirical studies and research, which means observing the world around us and making accurate statements about it

the CDC doesn't lie when it puts out the statistics, and many statistics are not made popular and are kept in the research papers because of illogical emotional reactions these studies could trigger in the general populace

You sure don't seem to have much understanding about how 'The West' really is. There is no such thing as gay/trans being fashionable. Being gay/trans is extremely tough, so someone doing it for the fashion will be getting desillusioned very, very quick. Maybe famous artists can get away with it, but i never once considered big stars as representative and most people who are past their teens don't consider them as role models either.

all the "gay pride" parades
folsom street fair
all the endless shoehorning of homo characters in all media possible

this is proof that lgbtism is being portrayed as being the hot new thing to be by the media and it has its effects on the young impressionable minds

it's not my problem though if entire generations are being told to be weak low energy multisexual pansexual catkins

My estimation was not based on gay or trans, which i both estimated between 5 and 20, and 5 are the official estimates here in the Benelux at least. But mostly the big amount of bisexual, asexual, bigender and agender people. A lot of people you know personally do fit into the spectrums of these, but because they resemble heteronormativity enough, it causes no significant dysphoria to them. However, to claim the majority of people is cisgender or hundred percent heterosexual is just being ignorant.

give empirical studies for that

basically you're saying that many people are forced to have kids by societal pressure and that they hate it

so what would be the solution? counter societal pressure to make everyone a LGBTist ?

But i also said it's an estimation. I hope you understand the meaning of that world. Statistics are somewhat useless in this subjects,

you just lost all credibility

closeted does not matter when the polling is done anonymously

if you knew anything about statistics and probability, you would know it very well

The links you showed don't look very legit. I prefer to believe the excellent gender researchers here in Europe over random American media. Especially as the US is still rather conservative when it comes to LGBT-issues. And perhaps that's just my European pride that i can't take anything Americans say serious.
And the fact that you try to bring STD's into the discussion is just pure trolling. We all know sleeping with a cisgender heterosexual s*** or a transgender s*** makes no difference STD-wise, and that non-perverted trans and gay people are just as clean as non-perverted heterosexuals.

so you totally reject CDC research on the issue?

you don't even know what the CDC is, and who the WHO is

did you know that in europe it's illegal to make statistics based on ethnicity? this simply proves you're not interested in real empirical studies, only the ones that please your emotions

do i need to pull out STD statistics comparing normal people to LGBTist people?

reminder 1 in 5 homosexuals in the USA have HIV

they didn't catch that desperately like you imply

[Sinem]

You never addressed my arguments which came straight from Quran and Reason

Because they had nothing to do with the subject. If you insist i give you a reaction, you're free to explain their relevancy.

valid empirical studies are always relevant

explain how 1 in 5 LGBT homosexuals have HIV? what kind of lifestyle does a group has to lead to even get close to that?
Agan, this is not exclusive to LGBT, with most African countries with their high HIV-ratings in general as a good example.

i am not at the wrong place, because the quran says to study the world around us, and that's what i do, studying the world around includes empirical studies and research, which means observing the world around us and making accurate statements about it

the CDC doesn't lie when it puts out the statistics, and many statistics are not made popular and are kept in the research papers because of illogical emotional reactions these studies could trigger in the general populace

Statistics are meaningless when there's no context. If city A has a number of 2000 registered crimes per year and city B a number of 4000 registered crimes, that doesnt mean city B automatically has more crimes. It could also mean the police of city B did their job a lot better than that of city A. Statistics are rather worthless if you look at the pure numbers. Because 'closeted' people will never pop up into the statistics, but their number is extremely big. Every statistic should be taken with a grain of salt, and emotionality is a huge factor in understanding the whole picture.
If the North-Korean goverment will tell you 100% of their population is heterosexual, are you seriously going to believe such a source (an official one), without taking it with a grain of salt? Usually emotional estimations are a bit closer to the real world than close statistics. At least when it comes to things that are not accepted like LGBT. They aren't accepted in the west, they are tolerated. Please understand the difference between these words.

all the "gay pride" parades
folsom street fair
all the endless shoehorning of homo characters in all media possible

this is proof that lgbtism is being portrayed as being the hot new thing to be by the media and it has its effects on the young impressionable minds

it's not my problem though if entire generations are being told to be weak low energy multisexual pansexual catkins

I'm not in favour of those pride parades either, as they don't serve any purpose. But again, those parades are 'tolerated', not 'encouraged'.
But to tell you the truth, it is exactly that type of media coverage which prevents people from outing themselves. It doesnt encourage them at all, it discourages them. Because the media portrays us totally unrealistic, and the pride parades are totally over-the-top and most LGBT people are truly ashamed of those things. So yeah, your point perhaps makes sense from an outsider perspective, but if you've talked to lots of closeted or semi-closeted people, you'll see a different picture. Again i liked to repeat that 'those who scream the loudest are not representative of the majority'. But that is also the case for heterosexuals or religious extremists or pretty much everything you can imagine.

give empirical studies for that

basically you're saying that many people are forced to have kids by societal pressure and that they hate it

so what would be the solution? counter societal pressure to make everyone a LGBTist ?

you just lost all credibility
I havent implied that thing about kids at all. Though it is the case that there is a concencus amongst heterosexual couples to have no kids and no marriage. Marriage and family nowadays is considered backwards, and the ones who want kids or families it the most are usually the LGBT people. (and that's a heartbreaking dilemma, though we don't really have a choice) I'm not really sure where you get this from.
Bisexual, Asexual, Bigender and Agender have nothing to do with the desire to have kids or not. Besides, for most of these groups, there's not much problem fitting into heteronormativity. However that doesnt mean they are hetero. Not having sexual desires does not mean you are physically unable to have sex, and being attracted to both genders does not usually pose any problems, as eventually they will choose either a heterosexual or a homosexual relationship. Usually a heterosexual because homosexuality is still frowned upon. Agender just means you're trying to be as genderneutral as possible, and bigender means you want to use both your male and female qualities. This doesnt usually pose problems, unless your partner/family/workplaces is extremely conservative, and insisting on media-based gender norms. Which is unfortunately still the case at some places.

Empirical studies see my point above. They don't give a representative image of society. And no, in an anonymous poll, closeted people will still lie about their truth, because they're still scared someone will read it. It doesnt make logical sense, but most of them have such little self-confidence that they will never admit it, not even anonymous. You don't seem to grasp what being closeted really means. Then there is also the problem of people being in denial. Are you seriously claiming that you're going to be able to put that into reliable statistics?

you just lost all credibility
closeted does not matter when the polling is done anonymously

if you knew anything about statistics and probability, you would know it very well

so you totally reject CDC research on the issue?

you don't even know what the CDC is, and who the WHO is

If anything, i only gained credebility, because i'm in favour of having a realistic representation of the world, rather than just believing only what i see. It is a fact that you can not put things into statistics when the information needed for these statistics is not available. Am i right in saying that you need to have a lot of information for statistics to be reliable? Yes i am. You are simply ignoring the fact that your statistics only give a representation of what is recorded. Or are you really going to claim everything is recorded?

Yes, i'm very, very critical to American sources. After all America is a christian-conservative and ?bercapitalist country. Every official source there has to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not saying their statistics are wrong in se. I'm mostly saying they don't show the whole picture.

And The Who is a British rockband from long ago But yeah, to be honest i did have to google them. It's probably because anyone quoting them translates their names as well. When translating them, it does ring a bell. Then again, the news websites you linked to are not the WHO or CDC. They just quote them, and you know how media works they just quote the interesting parts and put a lot of things out of their context. ) Especially not American media. Link me an official document from those organisations themselves, and i consider it a legit, but link me to random news websites, and i don't consider them as legit, unless if i'm familiar with them.

did you know that in europe it's illegal to make statistics based on ethnicity? this simply proves you're not interested in real empirical studies, only the ones that please your emotions

do i need to pull out STD statistics comparing normal people to LGBTist people?

reminder 1 in 5 homosexuals in the USA have HIV

they didn't catch that desperately like you imply

Yup, and you we both know the actual number of homosexuals with HIV is far lower. Or are you still keep on persisting that statistics are a good representation of the massive amount of unknown information. 1 in 5 open homosexuals? That's possible, because people like them are indeed vulnerable to those rotten apples who spread the virus. 1 in 5 of all homosexuals in the USA? Don't be ridiculous. Please be a little more realistic in your claims.
I do believe that there will be a day when statistics will know almost everything (and maybe instances like the CIA etc. already do), but that will take a few decades. Statistics are getting more and more reliable each and every year, but we're still very very far from that day. And on some things statistics are reliable like the amount of people being born genetically male/female. That's a reliable statistic, but even then, there are still people on the world who statistically don't exist as they have never been registered, so we can only estimate their numbers by extending our logic beyond pure math and use worldly knowledge. No, we can not know for sure, that's why i estimate. But when it comes to LGBT issues, estimations from insiders are still more realistic than statistics from the outsiders. I know a lot of outsiders can't grasp it, but it makes perfect sense. You only have to look in daily situations. Anyway, at this point, estimations are more valuable than statistics, because there's a systematic lack of statistics. If you keep on repeating your point, well, good luck getting confused that reality will never match up to your logic.