Do you have an explanation for this? Poll

Wakas

peace all,

SarahY,
If I understand you correctly, it's possible the only somewhat plausible reason Traditionalists could give to explain part of their story is to say that the followers of the messenger of Quran utilised pre-existing practices in order to triumph later on, and in the process modified them from pagan/polytheist to monotheist. For their story however, this still does not adequately explain why all those things are only mentioned in the latter period when all those things allegedly existed for many years without mention and they were allegedly praying in the so-called sacred mosque, towards kaabah etc. This is probably discussed by some Traditionalists somewhere but I haven't came across it.
My point about the change in "qiblah/focus" is that it seems Quran is clearly telling us about a change - all we need to do is connect the dots.

Bender,
I believe Quran was revealed over a period of time, as stated by Quran e.g. 2532, 17106, and therefore in some order. This makes perfect sense to me. I have studied the traditional order and independent academic studies of order of revelation, and my own studies, and found they are very similar. They may not be 100% correct, but for a rough guide they are useable.

A.W
I hold the view of (A), and I don't see how (B) is workable. The length (e.g. ~23 yrs) or exact order of revelation is not important, as long as one believes it was over some years and therefore in some order - the question remains.

Imran,
I am not that interested in the meanings of the words I highlighted in red (although it is important of course), I am asking about why they suddenly gain prominence in the latter revelation period. I am interested in finding a Quran based explanation, and from my studies I think there is one.

huruf,
I am primarily interested in making sense of The Quran, ideally with a self-contained explanation, hence the question raised herein. If one believes in an order of revelation, then making sense of that order is very helpful.

reel,
It seems mmkhan is referring to kitab/book, not Quran.

As I said before, Quran seems pretty self-explanatory to me
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

My view may complement or conflict with the view you hold - and that's ok. This is a complicated subject and very few have studied it and tried to find an explanation from Quran, so our research is in the early days. I like to make people think, hence the question in this thread.

huruf

huruf,
I am primarily interested in making sense of The Quran, ideally with a self-contained explanation, hence the question raised herein. If one believes in an order of revelation, then making sense of that order is very helpful.

Salaam wakas,

If I were to find a reasonn to have something handed out in a way and then composed some other way, I would say that the purpose would be to attain some goal. May be at agiven time it is easier place some stuff. For instance, if you sell refreshments, it would be self defeating to choose a polar lace in the most severe part of winter.

So with the Qur'an, going back to the An-Nur ayas I mentionned, the fact that some event comes to pass which is in everybody's tongue is very effetive if you want to introduce and make known how peoleshould best behave under such circumstance. But doing it in such a way tht they realise that that isnot a matter of A versus B or C, but rather that that is a kind of situation and behaviour that should be sunned no matter who it is that is involved.

Concerning hajj, qibla and th other questions, right now I am in a kind of limbo. May be because of the present circumstance I can't warm my heart for a hajj to Macca, i fact my heart is may be closer to some American (south more than north) spirituality.

I should study approppriately those questions and the ayas concerning them, but right now my mind is not in that so to all thoseof you who are now working on them I wish all success. May be you will do all the work and I will get all the benefit, hehe.

Salaam

marifhaq

Dear All,
If u talk to any aged traditional Quranic scholar ,he will say very firmly,that most of the quran was downloaded on Mohammad during the last six months of his life.Ayat regarding "interest" or in arabic called Riba were also just before His death,

On the other hand there are also reports that Quran was editted in the early days of islam.

The first quran written under instructions from Khalifa Abu Bakar, was later given to one of Mohammad's wives,Khalifa Marwan told her to give the quran to Him,She refused,being Prophet;s wife Marwan kept cool,and appointed some soldiers that after Her death Quran should be brought to His Capital city,soldiers did so,when Marwan got the quran he burnt it,to justify the changes made in quran,there was no other quran to tally or compare the new version with old anly first version of quran.there are some some ayats of quran that prove editting,for example,the famous Ayat that said,"Mohammad was not father of any men of you" Now read this ayat 2 or three times,you will realize that this ayat was inserted in quran after the death of Mohammad,further the Arabic word "kana" means "was" for proof see use of this word kana about Prophet Ibrahim, Ibrahim was already dead when quran landed, so quran uses word kana as Ibrahim was,but the close minded translators are still translating kana as "is" but quran proves its meaning are "was".I will feel happy if any one needs a further clarification,thank all.

s

reel

eel,
It seems mmkhan is referring to kitab/book, not Quran.

Yep, I discussed it with him before.

Hizbullah

According to Traditional Islamic history (and believed by many students of Quran), revelation of Quran took place over a period of many years (said to be ~23 years), and during most of this time, the believers were allegedly praying inside The Sacred Mosque (at Makkah) towards the cuboid called Kaabah, the sacred/inviolable months and the Hajj were apparently occurring regularly (perhaps yearly), but ALL these things are ONLY mentioned in the last few years of revelation according to traditional ordering of revelation (and independent academic studies of order of revelation), and assigns much significance to them.

WHY - do you have an explanation?

As a side note, if someone knows how Traditional Muslim "scholars" have explained this, please let me know.

Seems to me Hizbullah is basing his understanding on disputing/contradicting sources.

Quran 3929
GOD cites the example of a man who deals with disputing partners, compared to a man who deals with only one. Are they the same? Praise be to GOD; most of them do not know.

Why did you, Wakas, basing your understanding on disputing/contradicting sources. Did you not know that the History of the Traditional Islam including what their so called scholars said are full of conjectures? Did you not know that from the Quranic perspective Islam is much older than the Traditional Islamic sources.

Wakas

Why did you, Wakas, basing your understanding on disputing/contradicting sources.

If you bothered to read the quote of mine you highlighted you would see I never said I believe those things, and used words like "according to", "allegedly".

If you are actually interested in reading my view
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Bender

Bender,
I believe Quran was revealed over a period of time, as stated by Quran e.g. 2532, 17106, and therefore in some order. This makes perfect sense to me. I have studied the traditional order and independent academic studies of order of revelation, and my own studies, and found they are very similar. They may not be 100% correct, but for a rough guide they are useable.

Hi,

Quite surprising.
I always found it weird that according to the traditional view 1 chapter can have different time of revelation.

A couple of examples (source)
Order Sura Name Number Type Note
53 Yusuf 12 Meccan Except 1, 2, 3, 7, from Medina
9 Al-Qasas 28 Meccan Except 52-55 from Medina and 85 from Juhfa at the time of the Hijra
34 Qaaf 50 Meccan Except 38, from Medina

unknownuser

Peach Wakas,

I believe Quran was revealed over a period of time, as stated by Quran e.g. 2532, 17106, and therefore in some order.

Looking at

17106 And the Quran We have divided, that you might recite it to the people at intervals. And We have revealed it (in) stages.

Here it makes it clear that there were parts (as chapters/sections/subject types? I can't say for sure but nevertheless there were divisions of it as per the verse itself and therefore must have been in some order) yet it does not allude to any time-scale of the revelations themselves - not really.

2532 And said those who disbelieve, "Why not was revealed to him the Quran all at once?" Thus, that We may strengthen thereby your heart, and We have recited it (with) recitation.

I interpret this verse to be referring to disbelievers asking why the whole of the Quran was not revealed in one single revelation as opposed to in parts. Again, it does make it very clear that the Quran was revealed in parts/stages but it does not allude to any sort of time scale (short or long).

Then coming to

A.W
I hold the view of (A), and I don't see how (B) is workable. The length (e.g. ~23 yrs) or exact order of revelation is not important, as long as one believes it was over some years and therefore in some order - the question remains.

B) The Quran was revealed all at once over a small period of time (a month?) written down and was then relayed over many years on a case by case basis? (This theory has its issues, but then it would lend to the Quran being a miracle i.e. the messenger already informed of if else cases - responses and actions, thoughts and accusations on the prophet on the part of the audience before they happened).

I should have phrased my post properly (all at once over a small period of time&#822 i.e. I think the Quran was revealed over a shorter period of time perhaps a season? perhaps a month? I don't know. But the book is not terribly vast as far as quantity is concerned. Nonetheless revealed in a shorter span of time because these verses come to mind

254 And say those who disbelieve, "Not this but a lie, he invented it and helped him at it people other." But verily, they produced an injustice and a lie.

255 And they say, "Tales (of) the former people which he has copied in writing, dictated to him morning and evening."

971 Indeed, We revealed it in (the) Night (of) Power.

2185 Shahru Ramadhaan that was revealed therein the Quran, a Guidance for mankind and clear proofs of Guidance and the Criterion. So whoever witnesses among you the shahra, falyasumhu, and from who is sick or on a journey then from other days. Intends Allah for you ease and not intends for you hardship, so that you complete count and that you magnify Allah for He guided you so that you may (be) grateful.

I suppose it's open to interpretation without any hard evidence. This verse may refer to the revelations merely starting in Shahru Ramadhaan OR that the whole of the Quran was revealed in Shahru Ramadhaan.

So it is possible that the Quran was revealed in a month or a season instead of the traditional period of many years. Add to the fact that in the current compilation, it appears that the Quranic verses every few groups of passages jump from topic to topic, event to event in a lot of it's text which indicates that they are a collection of verses out of their original order or chapter (perhaps they were arranged by topic originally?). Of course I could have it utterly and completely wrong. Why? because the same phenomenon can also explain that revelations came over time on a case by case basis. But it can work either way.

I am open to changing my views, but this is what makes sense to me for now (i.e. we can't say for sure what the time-scale of revelation was). And I agree with you and huruf on the order not being a concern. But I am of the view currently, that the Quranic verses are a collection and not an ordered/indexed book in its current form in the real sense (though of course it has an order and index in its present form). For the sake of history it's entirely plausible that the actual order was very different.

So...regarding the WHY question that is the subject of this topic...still difficult to answer http//www.ds3spirit.com/images/smilies/smileys-mrgreen.gif

reel

It is clear that Quran came in stages, but it does not seem to agree with that whole traditional explanation of verses of Surah being revealed here and there.

And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter (sratun) like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.223

The hypocrites fear that a chapter (sratun)will be sent down which will expose what is in their hearts. Say "Mock, for God will bring out what you fear."964

A chapter (sratun)which We have sent down and imposed, and We have sent down in it clear revelations (ytin) that you may remember.241

And those who believe say If only a chapter (sratun)is sent down! But when a firm chapter (sratun) is sent down, and fighting is mentioned in it, you see those who have a disease in their hearts look at you, as if death had already come to them. It thus revealed them.4720

Mazhar

I like to think that if God is the author of Quran then it would explain the significant issues. To me, this issue seems significant, i.e. no mention of certain subjects (al hajj, al masjid al haram, al bayt al atiq, al kaabah, al masjid al aqsa, al bayt al haram, al ashur al haram etc) until much later in the revelation, and suddenly they seem to have much significance. Few seemed to have noticed this, and even fewer pondered why.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.57.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.57a.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.037b.gif 2857

mmkhan

It is clear that Quran came in stages, but it does not seem to agree with that whole traditional explanation of verses of Surah being revealed here and there.

Peace,

I think the confusion arises with the word 'revelation' or 'noon zaa laam'. It does not mean the sending down of aayaat physically. If so then as per 4140 some of the aayaat are revealed on others also.

Please note the red part 'alaikum' is plural.

Naazil means to make you understand. alKitaab was always there but understanding of its aayaat revealed and the procedure goes on till today.

Wakas

peace all,

Bender,
I do not necessarily agree with that aspect. I am primarily referring to chapter order.

A.W.,
From my reading of Quran (i.e. its content) I would find it hard to accept it was revealed to people over a short time, e.g. a season, or a month. For all of those things it mentions to happen over such a short time seems very unlikely. Chapter 9 comes to mind when it talks of treaties, their expiry etc.
Also in terms of coherence in Quran, I used to think chapters were somewhat disjointed but not now, they frequently demonstrate thematic consistency, I recommend the following works "coherence in quran" by mustansir mir, "discovering quran" by neal robinson. You can get them here I think http//islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html

huruf

I think the Qur'an seems disjointed a first sight because we are used to some "logical order". But it is a question always with the Qur'an as with everything else of what is the purpose of it. For the purpose ofthe Qur'an, I guess the way it is conceived in its final form is the best suitedto its purpose. It is not a book to be read an forgotten, but rather to be taken at any time in whatever part of it, as well as as a whole, like a grenadine.

Salaam

Hizbullah

If you are actually interested in reading my view
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Q1701 - Exalted is HE who took HIS Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa - whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, HE is the Hearing, the Seeing.

The servant of ALLAH is referring to Musa and not Muhammad. My proof is Q2021. Also 1702 begins with a conjunction. So Musa after he had assembled the 12 Tribal Nations which comprises of 11 Ishmaelites tribes and 1 Israelite tribe and after receiving the Book and the Furqan, @ the Masjidil Haram, the instruction thereafter, was to lead the 12 Tribal Nation to the Masjidil Aqsa, the Bless Land. However, the people rebelled and they were forbidden to enter the Bless Land for 40 years.

Masjidil Haram was the place where Musa received both the Book and the Furqan and Muhammad also received both the Book and the Quran. In the Quran 2830....

So when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley, in a location, the blessed of forest, "O Moses, indeed I am ALLAH, Lord of the worlds."

And so was Muhammad, he was called for the second meeting with Jibril at the spot where the Lote tree near the Garden of Abode. It was the same place where the Tur is / was, a forested area - see Q531 - 10. Cross referencing with 5201 - 03

And the Tur, And a Book inscribed, In a fine publication....

The Book was given to him, Q3223 and the Quran was downloaded into his heart Q0297.

As for the Masjidil Al-Aqsa is / was the Bless Land. Please see link http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608396.0, if you are interested.

Q1704 to 08 tells us about the Assyrian campaign against the Israelite. It almost annihilated the Israelite race. The continuation of the story is 17101 to 104.

Wakas

peace Hizbullah,

How does 2021 prove anything about 171?
Your interpretation is mostly wild speculation and not from Quran, except the "wa" connecting 171-2 argument - that part is actually reasonable. You have no answer to what I pointed out in the article

"al masjid al haram" is never mentioned in context with anyone except messenger of Quran
When Quran uses "abd/servant" without explicit mention of whom it is, it always (almost?) refers to messenger of Quran.
You do not translate "al masjid al haram" or "al masjid al aqsa" so we can actually see if it fits in Quran.
175-8 use past tense, then present/future/imperfect tense, so this is not all about the past - Traditionalists also seem to have no explanation for this. It's about future prophecy, as discussed in the article.
you conveniently ignore 1760, 4827 in your explanation - whereas my article provides an explanation
none of the verses you quoted are linked to "al masjid al haram", not even mentioned in the entire chapter! Only in your head is there a link.

But it's all good. People can weigh your understanding, their own understanding, the article's understanding etc and see which one is strongest in terms of the Quranic evidence etc.

Hizbullah

Peace Wakas

peace Hizbullah,

How does 2021 prove anything about 171?
Your interpretation is mostly wild speculation and not from Quran, except the "wa" connecting 171-2 argument - that part is actually reasonable. You have no answer to what I pointed out in the article

My apologies, it should be 0521 not 2021. But how could it be wild speculation, when i show you the intricacies of the Quranic system? There are more to it, but than you might not be able to accept it.

"al masjid al haram" is never mentioned in context with anyone except messenger of Quran

Are you very sure? 1701 is definitely about Musa.

When Quran uses "abd/servant" without explicit mention of whom it is, it always (almost?) refers to messenger of Quran.

Quran 2501 is also referring to Musa, considering the fact that Musa received the Furqan not the Last Prophet.

You do not translate "al masjid al haram" or "al masjid al aqsa" so we can actually see if it fits in Quran.

I have already done so except for the inadvertent input above which suppose to be 0521. I am sure you are aware that Muhammad was the Prophet like Musa. Both were Messenger-Prophet.

175-8 use past tense, then present/future/imperfect tense, so this is not all about the past - Traditionalists also seem to have no explanation for this. It's about future prophecy, as discussed in the article.

It was a prophecy already fulfilled 1705. You have conveniently ignore 17101 to 104.

you conveniently ignore 1760, 4827 in your explanation - whereas my article provides an explanation

From my understanding, the verses tells us about dream interpretation proves that the Last Prophet was a direct descendent of Ishaq. Please connect 1206 with 1760 and 4827.

none of the verses you quoted are linked to "al masjid al haram", not even mentioned in the entire chapter! Only in your head is there a link.

Please read it all over again than if you find that it is inappropriate, we will discuss again. There are some verse of the Quran which i found out but it seems to be wrong interpretation / contradictory.

But it's all good. People can weigh your understanding, their own understanding, the article's understanding etc and see which one is strongest in terms of the Quranic evidence etc.

I will be back handshake

parvez_mushtaq

in 2148 the usage of "wherever" is the ONLY time it appears without a close link to "turn+wajh+AMAH" therefore likens "wijhatun (direction/course/goal/motive)" with "qiblah" and consequently likens AMAH to "race to the good" or at least we can say AMAH involves this. Furthermore, AQ implies each person may have their own "qiblah" in 2145 then later in 2148 says "for each is a wijhatun he turns towards it", strongly suggesting "qiblah" and "wijhatun" are being related as similar terms/concepts. Please re-read these verses as this is a key finding.
....
.............
As a side note, the only other use of "wly/turn" in these verses other than "turn+wajh" is 2148 "...he turns towards it (wijhatun/course/goal)", which is primarily figurative and not taken physical-directional by anyone. This may help indicate the type of turning being referred to in these verses.

A few clarification , Wakas
In verse 2148

as per my thinking
refers to the community and not the individual as per context
but as per you ,it is "each one" can you explain this ,Wakas

Wakas

peace all,

Hizbullah,
I dont see any strong link from 521 to 171.

In Ch 25, messenger of Quran is referenced first, Moses appears 2535. See 2185 for furqan with al quran.

Again you ignore the future/imperfect tense in 177. Traditionalists also cant explain this.

As I said, readers can weigh up each interpretation and go with the strongest.

pm,
See http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kll#(21481)
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=148#(21481)
Literal "And for each/every one is a goal/direction/motive he (singular) turns towards it..."
The translation I provided is correct. That finding in your quote is one of the best gems in that article, in my view of course.

parvez_mushtaq

peace all,

............

pm,
See http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kll#(21481)
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=148#(21481)
Literal "And for each/every one is a goal/direction/motive he (singular) turns towards it..."
The translation I provided is correct. That finding in your quote is one of the best gems in that article, in my view of course.

I do agree with you Wakas
Because of singular your view point is also correct but at the same time we cannot ignore the context
let me put this way
the verse is of course ,undoubtedly is a GOD's view .He knew about the intention or the direction or the goal which an individual got in his mind

your perception is more or less like as swamy Vivekananda said "Like so many rivers flowing from different mountains, all coming and mingling their waters in the sea, all the different religions, taking their births from different standpoints of fact, come unto Thee"

for example , I am salafi ,yet my goal/direction/motive will definitely differ from others ,as a matter of fact ,no two individual will have a same set of understanding of their religion even though they may belong to same sect this includes Quranints also . i am an element of set(set theory,math) called salafi and suppose you are an element of set called "quranist" .Both salafi and Quranist will their same direction/goal/motive yet they are all are sub set of the set called "Muslims" and all Muslims will have the same goal/direction/motive namely followers of Quran their focal point (of course ignoring their understanding of Quran )
Now let me take the verse 2.145
And if you brought to those who were given the Scripture every sign, they would not follow your qiblah. Nor will you be a follower of their qiblah. Nor would they be followers of one another's qiblah. So if you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, indeed, you would then be among the wrongdoers.

Now let me use your meaning of Qibla here ,Yes the people of scripture will never follow our focal point which is Quran ....You may be correct

But

In verse 2.144
We have certainly seen the turning of your face, , toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you are, turn your faces toward it . Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

In this verse ,i cannot apply your meaning here because

http//quranx.com/Content/Images/ArabicWords/666177616c6c69.png
REM - prefix prefixed resumption particle resumption particle
which clearly says .......So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram....
meaning a physical turning of faces

So my understating is that , Qibla can have your meaning (focal point) at the same time it also means direction .

further , my point is proved even from this verse 2.143
And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

So the reason for making qibla is for the set called Muslims who follow the messenger prophet Mohammad sallalahu alaiwasalam

So the followers of mohammed sallala hu alai wassalam will face the kaba as their qibla

Mazhar

Again you ignore the future/imperfect tense in 177. Traditionalists also cant explain this.

Please re-read it by focusing attention of the past verb and then subjunctive particle and subjunctive verb. And notice that the apodosis clause of time adverb is elided.