ONLY 3 SALAT...OK...BUT WHAT ABOUT MY COUSINS IN ALASKA AND NORWAY??

[HP_TECH]

This Thread is in response to SAbboushi regarding salat times

Thanks very much for your message.

If you are willing, can you share your thoughts on what these verses mean? Beginning and ending of day as defined by the sun, or beginning and ending of day as defined by when I wake up and when I go to sleep, regardless of whether it is light or dark outside?

I've shared my current thinking/questions below in case you have the time or inclination to respond.

btw, if you don't mind answering, do you work for HP? I have been a loyal HP user since the mid 1980s (typing this on an ENVY 17 laptop)

Thanks again for getting back to me and may peace be with you too--

---

Is the only possible meaning = ?time-restricted regarding the behavior of the sun??

Maybe 2458 argues against such thoughts? 2458 seems clear in meaning ?dawn? and ?evening?? as long as the only meaning for ?Fajr? is ?dawn?. Can one ask ?Have you had your fajr meal and mean ?morning meal?, even though one is in Alaska at 9am and it has been night for the past month??

To continue what does someone who lives at the poles call the period of time from their waking until their sleeping? Do they call it ?day?, even though there may be no sun? Do they call the end of their ?day? ?the evening?, even though it may be light outside? I know I do.

In parts of Alaska, I understand it remains day for almost 3 months during the summer and it remains night for a little over 2 months during the winter? so what does this mean for salat? Since 2458 qualifies with , it seems that if one chooses to pray in Alaska at 5am and 10pm regardless of what the sun is doing, that these times should still mark the times of privacy for me mentioned in the verse, no? I would argue that an alternative is pray on the first day of summer when the sun comes up (and others should give me privacy until after the prayer)? and then I don?t pray for three months until the sun goes down? and so I don?t get any privacy for three months?

And as I think of it, if ?evening salat? means ?as I am preparing to end my day?, then I would argue that it is at THAT time that I desire my privacy. But if the sun sets at 5pm and I am not ready to retire for the evening, then what is the sense in arbitrarily changing the rules of privacy because the sun went down? 2458 to me seems to be qualifying with an EXPLANATION as to why privacy makes sense, no? It seems that the explanation in 2458 may be related to taking our garments off, which if that is the case, I wouldn?t be doing at 5pm just because the sun went down. So is it possible that fajr and isha mean ?My morning? and ?My evening??, so now the behavior of the sun is irrelevant?

Still many questions in my mind?

I recommend you researching further what I am conveying to you by reading a word by word translation with arabic transliteration so that you can ascertain via aid of lexicons that the arabic words are congruent with the meaning proposed.
I am sure you are aware of corpus.quran.co.uk, project root list, lane's lexicon, lughat al Quran and etcetera if you can read Arabic.

There are two definite constant prayers that are characterized by the twilight hours, these two prayers are the only named prayers in the Quran besides Al-Wusta Salat. They are the Dawn Prayer and the Evening Prayer of Surah 2458.
The middle or most important prayer is exactly between these two. A lot of people think that it is the noon prayer. Because they take the Dawn as the initial prayer of the Day and it would seem that noontime cuts the daylight hours in half.
This notion is incorrect though, because Allah tells us in 2458 the prayer times. Noon in 2458 has been pointed out as a time for privacy after garments have been removed, implying time for rest or nudity, without mentioning a prayer in correlation to this astronomical time point.
What most are failing to realize is that Allah's command is to establish prayer at the approaches of the night. Meaning near the times of the night. The daytime is for occupation otherwise. Look at this following ayaat. The Words of your Lord are clear.

731-8
O you who wraps himself!
Stand (in) the night, except a little,
Half of it, or lessen from it a little,
Or add to it, and recite the Quran (with) measured rhythmic recitation.
Indeed, We will cast upon you a Word heavy.
Indeed, (the) rising (at) the night, it (is) very hard and most potent and more suitable (for) Word.
Indeed, for you in the day (is) occupation prolonged.
And remember (the) name (of) your Lord and devote yourself to Him (with) devotion.

Taking into account that the command is to establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night, and to stand in the night and many other ayaahs listed below which I will comment on later on, we can see that if we visualize the cycle of day and night as a clock (with two hands being sun and moon) a portion of the "day" for one fixed location is illuminated by the sun while for the other portion it is covered by darkness. The portion of darkness has to be considered for times of prayer not the portion of daylight.
In fact, if we consider sunset first, the middle prayer would fall somewhere between after dusk or darkness has completely set in and before dawn. Some call it the midnight prayer and during occasional times of the year the middle of the period of darkness is around midnight but obviously depending on time zones and daylight savings it may vary.
To my understanding others also call this prayer the night vigil and that is perfectly in coalescence with the Al-Wusta Salat as long as it is within the approaches of the night, where twilight has dissipated. It can be in my understanding any time between that.

There is no disputing about the dawn prayer and evening (aisha)prayer, it is clearly detailed in 11114 and 1778 and also 2458, and also by clear daily astronomical twilight events.

But, there should be no dispute about the third prayer either as Surahs and Ayaats convey to us about the believers being those who rise up to pray in the hours of the night or the hours before dawn=al bishari and little of the night sleep. 317, 5115-17

Some think of it as additional, but I do not know whether additional can be interpreted as optional.
I do not think the prophet would opt out of doing this, and neither those with him.

The three following surahs are definitive about the times of prayer.
The first two are detailed and descriptive.
The third one names the prayers by name.

11114
And establish the prayer (at the) two ends (of) the day and (at) the approach of the night. Indeed, the good deeds remove the evil deeds. That (is) a reminder for those who remember.

Note that for this ayaat the word translated as approach should be approaches = wazulafan it is masculine plural.
In this Ayaat our Lord is telling us to establish prayer at the two ends of the day. The two ends of the day are marked by sunrise and sunset. The phrase and at the approaches of the night reinforces the notion of at least two prayers being at the ends of the day that are near the approaches of the night (sunrise and sunset), as well as the general time of prayer being taken at the approaches of the night, hence including the middle night prayer which is within or confined by these approaches.

1778-79
Establish the prayer, at the decline (of) the sun till (the) darkness (of) the night and Quran at dawn, indeed, the Quran (at) the dawn is ever witnessed.
And from the night arise from sleep for prayer with it (as) additional for you; it may be that will raise you your Lord (to) a station praiseworthy.

Here are the specifics for the times of prayer marking the two ends of the day first evening(sunset) and morning/dawn(sunrise). Our Lord demonstrates the beginning and the end, then points at the time between those two "midnight". He instructs to arise from sleep. This signifies sometime in the middle of the night. If one wishes to keep true to Al-Wusta they would probably seek to arise at a time close to the exact middle of the period of darkness.

2458
O you who believe! Let ask your permission those whom possess your right hands and those who (have) not reached puberty among you (at) three times, before (the) prayer (of) dawn, and when you put aside your garments at noon and after (the) prayer (of) night. (These) three (are) times of privacy for you. Not on you and not on them any blame after that (as) moving about among you, some of you among others. Thus Allah makes clear for you the Verses, and Allah (is) All-Knower, All-Wise.

I think it is pretty obvious at this point why there is no mention of a salat at noon when two other prayer-times are mentioned. Prayers take place at the ends of the day and at the approaches of the night, exactly as we are instructed. Here we see Dawn Prayer and Evening(near sunset) Prayer both near times of night.
Think about the times of privacy more clearly. Allah makes clear for you the Ayaats. What is before the Dawn Prayer and after the Evening Prayer?
Yes, you have guessed it. Time for sleep. Settling of complete darkness. But for the believers a portion of it is to rise and recite the Quran at the time of Al-Wusta the "Middle" Prayer.
This entire period for night after evening prayer window is implied as a time for privacy.

The next are Ayaats related to glorifying at general times like morning and evening and rising up at night.
The Ayaats conveying the establishment of the prayer were the above ones.
A lot of people make a problem for themselves by trying to combine the commands from the previous Surahs to the following ayaats.
I think it is advisable to acquaint oneself properly to the words used in the commands. Establishing is only used in 11114 and 1778, while the following surahs denote "glorify" at so and so.
Not to totally disregard the notion that these times are in alignment with the prayer times, but many also use these following ayaahs to add additional invented/ man-made prayer-times.

317-18
The patient and the truthful and the obedient and those who spend and those who seek forgiveness before dawn.

20130
So be patient over what they say and glorify with praise (of) your Lord before (the) rising (of) the sun and before its setting; and from (the) hours (of) the night, and glorify (at the) ends (of) the day so that you may be satisfied.

3017-18
So glory be to Allah when you reach the evening and when you reach the morning.
And for Him (are) all praises in the heavens and the earth and (at) night waheena tuthhiroona.

A lot of people are under the impression that waheena tuthhiroona means when you are at noon but if you analyze the skeleton of the word in Arabic even a novice can deduce that the translation "you are at noon" does not fit for this verb form. I am not extremely familiar with the Arabic grammar but it seems to me that tuzhiruna is used as a verb and cannot imply noon, if so noon would have been used as a noun, as it has in other ayaats.

Look at the concordances for the verb form(IV) of h r ( &#1585

Verb (form IV) - to make apparent, to reveal
(933 liyu'hirahu to manifest it
(284822) tahar supporting each other
(3018 tu'hirna you are at noon
(402615) yu'hira he may cause to appear
(4828 liyu'hirahu that He (may) make it prevail
(619 liyu'hirahu to make it prevail
(66311) wa-aharahu and made it apparent
(72264) yu'hiru He reveals

Not once is it used as noon except for in 3018. It is a devise of the shaytan to deviate those who will deviate.
It is merely a repetition of what we see throughout the Quran, Allah telling us that He knows whats hidden/concealed by night and what is apparent revealed by the day. In addition we have the parallel phrase before this in ayaah 17. evening, morning/ night(concealment/hidden) /revealing or apparent (nature of the day).

5039-40
So be patient over what they say and glorify (the) praise (of) your Lord, before (the) rising (of) the sun and before the setting,
And of the night glorify Him and after the prostration.

5115-18
Indeed, the righteous (will be) in Gardens and springs,
Taking what their Lord has given them. Indeed, they were before that good-doers.
They used to little of the night sleep
And in the hours before dawn they would ask forgiveness,

What could cause the righteous to sleep little by night. It is because prayer is generally around the hours of the night. Especially what causes the little sleep of night is arising for the Salat Al-Wusta/ Middle (of Night) Prayer.
Here we see again al-bishari, hours of the night/ or before dawn.
God's Book has parts which are oft-repeated, those are the foundation of the Book.

5248-49
So be patient, for (the) Command (of) your Lord, for indeed, you (are) in Our Eyes. And glorify (the) praise (of) your Lord when you arise,
And of the night, glorify Him, and after the stars.

Oft-repeated.

Again here we see the arising at night. I am not too keen on the situation with the starry sky during these hours, but I do know most stars do appear to set. It is possible that this ayaah is referring to arising at night for the Middle Night Prayer, which is denoted by setting of the stars in the sky OR referring to both arising at night and at dawn when the stars are for sure set and no longer visible.

Regardless of where you are on the plane the sun appears to rise and set everywhere. There has not come a day in which the sun or moon was lost track of in any particular region of the world.

Do not dwell on what a person in different regions of the world might be faced with. Focus on what you experience.
I do not want to delve into too much of what has reached me, but there is strong indication that at least no one lives on the "poles" because there is no such thing as poles. The earth is a plane not a planet. The sun and moon are on an orbit above and around in circular-like perhaps elliptical paths/pattern. Hence the sun from a person's vantage point crosses every horizon every sky, despite whether condition and visibility it always covers its path. Even in the heliocentric model such is the same, although there are huge logical fallacies in the notion that the earth is tilted hence south pole always exposed to sun rays yet cold as the north and colder than the equator.
There are many questionable facts about the heliocentric theory indeed.
Which gives people misconception about simple instructions like the time of prayer because of the implications that the earth being a globe and like you have proposed variations in daylight times.
It is a complete farce, but perhaps I will relate to you on another occasion how much of a farce it is and how it compromises the deen as folks that live in geographic regions where they observe the sun and moons cross the sky normally begin to doubt as to what time they are instructed to pray because of the suspicion that a human being they have never met might be living in a region of the world they have never been in which assumedly the sun goes in hiding for months.
It is true places near the "North Pole" experience midnight suns and longer daylight because they are near the center of the earth for a planar model and pole for globular model. Regardless the sun is still traversing across the sky from east to west. The sky does get somewhat darker although it is true it is considerably still bright I must admit.
The point is that you will know the midnight sun because it is at its lowest point and can technically recognize the others by slight twilight.

Although, I do not think you can just arbitrarily say that someone's morning is subjective. It is universal and there was alway the use of time-keeping and positioning in the sky of the celestial bodies to infer time.
The morning prayer and evening prayer cannot be subjective though, as they have been instructed for specific time periods as we see in 11114 and 1778.

Since I do not live in such regions of the world I am going to follow what my Lord has commanded, to the best of my abilities and I will leave it to Allah to guide whosoever is in those regions if He wills to the Straight Path.
It is each individual's duty to fulfill the salat according to their means and what they are given!

Although I will point out that the ends of the day are still recognizable even in these regions as the sun reaches the two extremes east and west. In fact I suspect that if one faced north and they could see the sun above horizon then it is near approach of the night and the sky would be slightly darker and seemingly if they faced south and witness the sun "emerging" from the farthest extreme to the east then it is morning time and the sky would gradually slightly brighten.
If you have an imagination, it should not be too hard to picture that if you are staring directly out at your extremes east and west you'd expect to see the sun denoting sunrise and sunset regardless of the brightness of the day.
Remember 11114 says to establish at the two ends of the day.
I am also quite confident that if one is observant they can see the slight shift in brightness even in these regions.
So it may be that in compensation for having such long periods of day, hence work and so forth, these people have shorter periods of night, hence their required time lessened.
In the end Allah knows best, He measures all things in numbers and has set the balance in truth.

I put my trust in the Lord of the Worlds, Sufficient for me is Allah, Allah is our Lord, Our Lord is Allah!

Peace

P.S. I will post this with your questions on a thread for responses from others

[Wakas]

This issue comes up sometimes. Some info

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

NB an important issue that I have only begun to study is that all the "verses"/signs/ayatin which refer to a time for slw are addressed to the messenger in the Arabic singular (unlike other commands, such as "fasting"/abstinence/sawm), thus may not be applicable to everyone. This for example, may solve the problem of unworkable sun-based schedules in northern countries, e.g. Sweden/Norway during some parts of the year. Also, for orbiting astronauts in space. Therefore, it has been suggested that the timing systems described for slw are meant to be taken as an example, not that they should be applicable to everyone everywhere. Thus, instead of morning & evening, it would be at the start of the working day and at the end (implied in 245, whatever that may be for each individual. This aspect of this article will be updated as soon as I have researched it thoroughly.
Please note that 2185, abstinence is only upon those who are able to witness the month. No such clause exists for salat.

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

It should be noted that to my knowledge, the only plural address to believers for a timed salat verse is 2458, wherein only "salat al fajr" and "salat al isha" are mentioned. This is commonly not mentioned in articles.

Coincides with http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

[SAbboushi]

Thanks for your response. I'll post my questions/comments over time as I process what you've written.

Look at this following ayaat. The Words of your Lord are clear.

731-8
O you who wraps himself!
Stand (in) the night, except a little,
...

Taking into account that the command is to establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night, and to stand in the night ...

I've wondered whether these verses are directed to Muhammad?

[HP_TECH]

Thanks for your response. I'll post my questions/comments over time as I process what you've written.

I've wondered whether these verses are directed to Muhammad?

Ah, but it would only appear as so if you don't read the entire surah.
If you read on in Surah 73 and you arrive at ayaah 20, 7320 you will note the following

Indeed, your Lord knows that you stand (a little) less than two-thirds (of) the night, and half of it and a third of it and (so do) a group of those who (are) with you. And Allah determines the night and the day. He knows that not you count it, so He has turned to you, so recite what is easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be among you sick and others traveling in the land seeking of (the) Bounty (of) Allah, and others fighting in (the) way (of) Allah. So recite what is easy of it, and establish the prayer and give the zakah and loan Allah a loan goodly. And whatever you send forth for yourselves of good, you will find it with Allah. It (will be) better and greater (in) reward. And seek forgiveness (of) Allah. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[clashncruz]

Assalamu Alaykum All,

I agree with you about Sura Al Muzzamil HP, and I have often wondered why more people do not uphold the nighttime prayers. It is especially curious considering that their own hadith confirm the long night prayer as one of the most rewarding. I will post these here only to prove my point, I am not trying to enter a Hadith/Qur'an debate as we all know why we are on this forum.

From the Sunni sources

"Abd Allah ibn Salam (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him, his family, and companions) said, ?O people! Spread the salams, feed others, maintain family ties, and pray at night when others sleep and you will enter Heaven safely.?

Abu Umama al-Bahili (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him, his family, and companions) said, ?Hold fast to night prayer, for it was the way of the righteous before you, a way of drawing closer to your Lord, an expiation for wrong deeds, and a shield from sin.? In some narrations, there is an addition, ?And it repels sickness from the body.?

And from the Shia sources

Imam al-Sadiq (a.s) said ? Performing the Night?s Prayer is the believer?s honor. Refraining from harming others is his glory.? - Reference Wasa?il al-Shia, vol.5, Hadith #2, Ch.39

Imam al-Sadiq (a.s) said ?The houses in which the Quran is recited during Night?s Prayer shine to the inhabitants of heavens as the stars to the inhabitants of earth do.? - Reference Wasa?il al-Shia, vol.5, Hadith #38, Ch.39

And one from Qur'an I did not see posted yet

"Is one who is devoutly obedient during periods of the night, prostrating and standing , fearing the Hereafter and hoping for the mercy of his Lord, ? Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember people of understanding." -399

Do you think there is some reason the vast amount of the ummah have been turned away from the night prayer towards these other prayers during the day that have less Quranic evidence? Was/Is there a conspiracy afoot here to lessen the effect of the Muslims' night prayers?

This is an interesting discussion everyone, I hope to read more.

Salaam,

Clash.

[HP_TECH]

Do you think there is some reason the vast amount of the ummah have been turned away from the night prayer towards these other prayers during the day that have less Quranic evidence? Was/Is there a conspiracy afoot here to lessen the effect of the Muslims' night prayers?

This is an interesting discussion everyone, I hope to read more.

Salaam,

Clash.

Salaam Dear brother,

Sorry for the late reply, overlook my disregard.
I am not sure I am equipped with the tools to address that question. If I had to give an educated guess, it would be that the scholars of old interpreted those verses about glorification as mandatory salat times, to ensure their interpretation would be official they fabricated certain ahadith in their favor.

[The_Guided_One]

Good work brother