Wakas understanding of maSJiD
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Wakas stated
The literal meaning of "maSJD" is roughly "implemented SJD", but the form/manner in which this implementation takes is open to interpretation. By far, the most common interpretation is "place of SJD" e.g. Mosque, but some others include act of SJD, institute of SJD, time of SJD. Perhaps the most well-known theoretical meanings of this Arabic word form would be place/time of SJD.
And later he is still in confusion to state explicitly what he understand from the word Masjid.
There will be no meaningful discussion unless first we determine the meanings and irreducible features of relevant terms.
The terms are Adverb of Place and Adverb of Location.
An adverb of place always talks about the location where the action of the verb is being carried out. Adverb of place tells us where something happens. They are usually placed after the main verb or after the clause that they modify. Adverbs of place do not modify adjectives or other adverbs.
This definition exposes that adverb of place relates to action verbs
Do you agree?
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Wakas stated
And later he is still in confusion to state explicitly what he understand from the word Masjid.
There will be no meaningful discussion unless first we determine the meanings and irreducible features of relevant terms.
The terms are Adverb of Place and Adverb of Location.
An adverb of place always talks about the location where the action of the verb is being carried out. Adverb of place tells us where something happens. They are usually placed after the main verb or after the clause that they modify. Adverbs of place do not modify adjectives or other adverbs.
This definition exposes that adverb of place relates to action verbs
Do you agree?
I really wonder about his view point on verse 2.187 in the article(click)
From the article2187 Lawful for you nights (of) the abstinence is sexual approach* to your women, they are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray/deceive yourselves so He turned towards you and He forgave you; so now approach** them and seek what God has decreed/written for you. And eat and drink until becomes distinct the white thread from the black thread, of dawn. Then you shall complete the abstinence until the night, and do not approach** them while you are devoting/cleaving in the maSaJiD. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous/God-concious.
*Arabic RaFaTh (root Ra-Fa-Tha)
**Arabic BaShiR (root Ba-Shin-Ra)IF one takes masajid=mosques then if women were not allowed in them, it would make this statement illogical, thus clearly implying women could be present in the mosques. It also implies men and women are unlikely to be segregated, as they could approach one another, i.e. interact.
Who in their right mind would approach their wife in a sexual manner in a public Mosque? Was this such a temptation or common practice that AQ had to tell them not to do it? According to history/tradition mosques in those early days were very basic or simply courtyards thus unlikely to have multiple rooms so it seems even more odd to suggest such a thing taking place in a Mosque. This traditional understanding verges on the nonsensical.
IF masajids=mosques, why even mention mosques, when there is much greater chance of sexual temptation in the homes during abstinence? The traditional commentators attempt an explanation for this, e.g Jalalayn/Ibn Kathir say this is referring to 'itikaf' (spiritual retreat in the mosque) when believers would leave the mosque for sex then return, when they are meant to reside at the mosque for a certain number of days. This is a complete insertion of course, and hardly "clear" as it implies at the end of the verse, and the obvious error as it says "...WHILE YOU are devoting/cleaving IN the masajid" not when one leaves them. So, it would seem they interpret it as "...while you are staying in the masajid (for itikaf)...".
If it did mean 'itikaf' then this is not explained elsewhere in AQ, e.g. how many days, what does it involve, why, is it obligatory, examples of anyone actually doing it etc. If we are relying upon AQ only for our understanding of this verse, then 'itikaf' must be rejected outright. The consequence of this however, is that it renders the understanding of masajid=mosques illogical, or at least very unusual.
Another explanation put forth for this verse is that sexual approach to your women is permitted in the nights of the abstinence but not when one is staying in the mosques, e.g. The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca). Not for "itikaf" per se but simply a spiritual/devotional retreat there, e.g. travellers to The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) may have come from afar and thus set up tents there, and this verse is referring to them (a verse cited to support this notion of "residency/staying" is 2225). Not that I necessarily agree with this explanation, but it is at least more plausible than the Traditional explanation, which advocates a specific practice of "itikaf" rather than an undefined one. It is debatable whether the word "akif" means "reside/stay" according to Quran usage, but in any case people staying-over in the mosque seems odd/impractical if one takes "tawaf" as "circumambulation" for example, and the "hadiy" (gifts/offerings) are also to be taken to such a venue. It could make "circumambulation" rather awkward, and if many residents/gifts/animals, perhaps impossible.does this verse really implies this meaning
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Mazhar has made the same claims before and has been exposed.
Others who know Arabic well here, e.g. Ayman, As-Salatayn, uq are all agreed that the theoretical meanings of the word form masjid can include noun of place as well as time.
The article goes into detail about this, see the end
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlIn fact, I believe Mazhar even said this himself, and said context determines which one it is, i.e. place or time. We have discussed this before but unfortunately Mazhar frequently confuses incorrect according to Mazhar's view, with, impossible according to the Arabic grammar. It is the former, not the latter.
Peace.
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Wakas stated
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The terms are Adverb of Place and Adverb of Location.An adverb of place always talks about the location where the action of the verb is being carried out. Adverb of place tells us where something happens. They are usually placed after the main verb or after the clause that they modify. Adverbs of place do not modify adjectives or other adverbs.
This definition exposes that adverb of place relates to action verbs
Do you agree?
Yes , grammatically i agree
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Arabic word form would be place/time of SJD
Wakas,
Please be specific. An adverb can either be adverb of place or it can be adverb of time. One word cannot denote both simultaneously in a text.
The features inherent in them are distinct.
Therefore, make up your mind to get out of the confusion you have been in for so long as to whether it is adverb of place or is adverb of time.
Please tell us clearly.
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Adverbs of time tell us when an action happened.
When you say Masjid is "time of sajd" then where is "when" aspect? It is the "when" which is signified by the time of adverb. Just consult any dictionary for English and for Arabic time adverbs that show when, how long and how often an action is done.
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Wakas concluded
Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD"So he says "masjid" means "time of submitting/honouring/paying respect".
"al masjid al haram" means "inviolable time of submitting/honouring/paying respect".
Simply funny statement. Time is understood only by "when" aspect. When is the time of submitting? When is the inviolable time of submitting?
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The articles explains what is al masjid al haram / the inviolable time of acknowledgement, and when it occurs.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
The evidence gathered in this article very strongly links the meaning of AMAH to a special time-period/event, e.g. the inviolable months (al ashhur al hurum) wherein the HaJJ/feast/symposium takes place.
The main problem that I can see is that the term "al masjid al haram" in its Quran occurrences has time as well as event connotations, that is why I feel it doesn't provide a perfectly read fit, i.e. it can feel a little awkward when read in some occurrences. I am open to finding a better fit phrase than I have chosen in the article as long as it passes the issues raised therein.
One avenue that could require further study is to take it as meaning the inviolable place of acknowledgement, referring to the designated locality wherein the restrictions are in place, animals are brought, al hajj is held etc, not a mosque.
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referring to the designated locality wherein the restrictions are in place, animals are brought, al hajj is held etc, not a mosque.
Exactly what I am trying to convey in my thread - http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608396.0
There is a distance between Masjid AlHaram and Masjid AlAqsa. Masjid AlAqsa, literally means the Furthest Place of Prostration, is the BILAD, where the bless land is, clearly tells us that it is a designated locality wherein the animals are brought, the scarification of animals, al hajj, etc....
You only need to check out the verses and ponder over....
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One avenue that could require further study is to take it as meaning the inviolable place of acknowledgement, referring to the designated locality wherein the restrictions are in place, animals are brought, al hajj is held etc, not a mosque.
Instead of giving straight forward answers to the points mentioned, you seem to have discarded the stand of calling it a time of this and time of that.
Now it has become some place of this and that but not a mosque.
What is a mosque?
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One avenue that could require further study is to take it as meaning the inviolable place of acknowledgement, referring to the designated locality wherein the restrictions are in place, animals are brought, al hajj is held etc, not a mosque.
It means you are discarding earlier held stance in your paper which was
The literal meaning of "maSJD" is roughly "implemented SJD",
By far, the most common interpretation is "place of SJD" e.g. Mosque, but some others include act of SJD, institute of SJD, time of SJD.
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From you article
IF one takes masajid=mosques then if women were not allowed in them, it would make this statement illogical, thus clearly implying women could be present in the mosques. It also implies men and women are unlikely to be segregated, as they could approach one another, i.e. interact.
first tell me how it becomes illogical to assume women are not allowed in mosques (quran only view with verses pl)
Do you have proofs for this claim or this your speculation , Wakas
this is your first mistake regarding this verse 2.187.i don't how you assumed that men and women interact in mosques !Who in their right mind would approach their wife in a sexual manner in a public Mosque? Was this such a temptation or common practice that AQ had to tell them not to do it? According to history/tradition mosques in those early days were very basic or simply courtyards thus unlikely to have multiple rooms so it seems even more odd to suggest such a thing taking place in a Mosque. This traditional understanding verges on the nonsensical.
i think you missed out this portion of the verse 2.187
http//quranx.com/Content/Images/ArabicWords/616e667573616b756d.png
anfusakum
yourselves,Verse 2.187.. ...used to betray/deceive yourselves very clearly implies that sex was done by those people in hide outs and they make other people to believe that they were not involved in any sexual act .
IF masajids=mosques, why even mention mosques, when there is much greater chance of sexual temptation in the homes during abstinence?
You mean to say a husband and wife will always be thinking of sex when ever they interact .
this is really ridiculous , Wakas
sex is just an emotional outlet and it can be controlled .if i take masjid as mosques it implies that be in the mosques whenever you get tempted during the day time while you are in fast .if i take your meaning of "time of sajd" then it implies that .......?? the verse get meaningless ...can your explain this verse with your meaning of masjid ,Wakas -
From Your article
2240 Those who were expelled from their homes without right, except that they said "Our Lord is God!" And if it were not for God checking/defending the people, some by others, surely would have been overturned/demolished monasteries and churches/synagogues and synagogues/blessings/bonds/petitions and maSaJiD in which the name of God is mentioned/remembered much. And surely God will help those who help Him. Indeed God is Powerful, Noble.
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The implication of 2240 is that God does not want these things to be ruined. Somewhat unusually, it singles out 'maSaJiD' saying "in which the name of God is mentioned/remembered much", implying the others listed do not have this or some maSaJiD do not have this. A more detailed study into the possible CAD meanings of "sawami" and "biya'un" may need to be done.
2436 may be interesting to note as it uses "buyoot/houses" not "masajid". IF masjid=mosque, it seems that could have been more appropriate to use.In the same vein can you explain this verse , Wakas
Verse 24.33To whom is ALLAH subhanvatala is forgiving , Wakas
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Mazhar,
It is unfortunate I have to explain this to you but simply mentioning a possible option does not mean that is my actual view or I am disregarding other options.parvez,
It is illogical for one to say women are not allowed in mosques, when Quran is allegedly talking about men/women being together in mosques. That is a problem for you/others to resolve.
Also the meaning of "time of acknowledgement" would fit like this in 2187, when one is undergoing abstinence (from sunrise to sunset) they are in a "time of acknowledgement" (from sunrise to sunset) so no sex during this time period. Simple. -
Mazhar,
It is unfortunate I have to explain this to you but simply mentioning a possible option does not mean that is my actual view or I am disregarding other options.Salam Wakas,
Dear a derived adverb is either of time or of place. It cannot be both. Use both the options with all the occurrences and then make up your mind to get out of ambiguous state whether it is adverb of time or adverb of place.
Clue is that the words called collocates which naturally occur with a word might help you to resolve your confusion about one of the important words of Qur'aan.
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w/salaam Mazhar,
I'm not confused. I never said it was both. Perhaps you don't understand the simple idea of listing options for people to consider, and prefer pushing one view as if that's the only possible option.
Not me.
My position is simple I have studied the various options and I think "the inviolable time of acknowledgement" (as explained in article) fits best.
No-one has brought any Quran contradiction, logical problem, any grammar impossibility as an objection etc against such a view.
Simple.
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w/salaam Mazhar,
I'm not confused. I never said it was both. Perhaps you don't understand the simple idea of listing options for people to consider, and prefer pushing one view as if that's the only possible option.
Not me.
My position is simple I have studied the various options and I think "the inviolable time of acknowledgement" (as explained in article) fits best.
No-one has brought any Quran contradiction, logical problem, any grammar impossibility as an objection etc against such a view.
Simple.
So the bold one is your final considered opinion.
If we break the adjectival phrase your considered opinion is that http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.034/150.%20Isjidoo%20Seen%20Jeem%20Daal/6.gif means time of acknowledgement; and http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.085/304.%20Mohuramun%20Ha%20Ra%20Meem/2.gif means invoilable.
Have I correctly understood your thinking, or there is something else in your thouhts?
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That is correct.
Let us analyse what is meant or can be perceived from phrase "time of acknowledgement"
acknowledgement
noun
1.
an act of acknowledging.
2.
recognition of the existence or truth of something
the acknowledgment of a sovereign power.
3.
an expression of appreciation.
4.
a thing done or given in appreciation or gratitude.public recognition by a man of an illegitimate child as his own.
acknowledgment
noun
1.
the act of acknowledging or state of being acknowledged
2.
something done or given as an expression of thanks, as a reply to a message, etc
3.
(pl) an author's statement acknowledging his use of the works of other authors, usually printed at the front of a bookPlease clarify what is meant or perceived when you use acknowledgement.
