No God Exists: Why Should I Be Good to humans?
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The fact that we are not able to bring or do not care to bring a paper with a very nice "logically" exposed and chained sequence of cause and result, does not meann that things do not exist or are not like we see they are. The fact is that I do know an deal with with people who are professed atheists, or rather agnostic, because most called atheists in fact are agnostics, but so they consider themselves atheists and they do not need at all any threat, either in this world or in another world to behave like real good human beings, because they listen to their fitra and not to the world.
Also I know there are people who go as atheists and in fact parade their atheism, and they tend to be people who have left religion, they can be quit fanatical. But those should not let us forget other people who simply cannot bring theemselves to believe in what people call God.
So these sincere fitra atheists who do not want to cheat themselves that they will get a reward for being good, but who in spite of it are good, sometimes extremely good, do you call them unnbelievers?
I do believe in human fitra and if somebody does wrong it is not by his or her fitra but by turning a blind eye to it, because in fact one has been tempted and given in to temptation, as simple as that. After, we may rationalise the thing however we wish, but it will be a rationnalisation not a reason. Of course we are very prone to temptation, we shun difficulty and will readily cling to something, however false that gives us a respite from difficulties and suffering, or which promises to bring us pleaure or whatever. Deep down we know, we do know we are cheatinng ourselves. Punishment in this lifee never comes unexpected although it may come suddely and certainly most unwelcome, but we do kow where we have our debts with ourselves and everything else. Sometimes we cannot do otherwise, because obviously we are nnot God an therefore we are not allpowerful to command what happens to us, but we do know where we are and morally I feel that us humans deserve compassion, it may get very difficult to swim in the sea of world life, and I trust and hope that we get it and that we will be corrected with compassion.
Salaam
First about fitra, how many humans actually respond to it in the same way regardless of what they believe? How much value does it have in front of the human authority? How much value does it have in front of an agreement paper? Truth is that not much. Hence, a soldier, when he realizes that he is participating in an illegal war can't just back away from it. In the same way, people like Cheney never feel they have done something wrong. What would it be like to live in an atheist world where this guy is the leader?
As I repeatedly mentioned, atheism isn't different from sunnism. In both, the "divine" law comes from men. Ironically, there is one hadith according to which a sahaba "narrated" that during the Prophet's time people were judged by Quran. After his death, the new law was to judge people by their deeds. I do not think it is a popular hadith. But in both sunnism and atheism, the sharia is to rely upon ulema and consensus of the ummah. We know how nicely that has been working if we look at China and Saudi.
It does not matter if the average atheist is good, for by the use of atheistic morals/ethics (if one exists) there is no way to dictate what and how much rights humans should have. That is why, morality is considered the weakest element for the atheism and of course, the history shows atheist government has a habit of crossing the line in a way that it outperforms Islamists and christian extremists.
Here the author explains the moral problem linked to atheism
http//www.spectator.co.uk/2014/04/ethics-for-atheists/So there is one thing that fye said in one of his messages, and although I do not usually gree with him in many things, even when I understand him, in this one he was absolutely right that we may think that such and such a person may be a wrongdoer or an unbeliever or whatever, but that we never never can act on that because that ONLY GOD KNOWS.
Majority of the people outside are law abiding humble citizens. Hence, both mainstream Islam and atheism mean peace. Also we still are very much influenced by theistic teachings. That said, I have come across some very gruesome discussions at atheist forums recently. I am still saving the screenshots. I am not gonna post the links here at this moment simply because I do not want the discussions to be deleted by their forum mods before I finish that work.
I usually don't like to talk about who is a believer and kafir. But I do think people who flipflop in one conversation a little too much they cannot be trusted especially when the topic is essential to the survival of the humans..Unfortunately, this flipflopping is very much a part of atheism. Perhaps that is why, according to the study, even atheists don't trust each other?
Myself I could not bring myself to believe or act through fear. It must be through conviction. Of course by force one may end up submittig to anything, but submmitting to anything is not to commit oneself to it.
Atheists like most do have fear of the government though and that is sticky in a world driven by atheism. Both theistic and atheistic governments can lay down cruel laws with a bunch of made up rationalized explanations. Unfortunately, the punishments of the atheist government can give one nightmare for weeks. The ideologies supported by the atheist ulema are also quite painful to read about. Summary
Eugenic
Assisted suicide
Transhumanism
Inhibition of freedom of speech especially criticism of atheism and atheists
Justification of how atheist ideology cannot be condemned for the mass murders despite evidence
Suppression of individualism, alternative thinking and science while promoting group think (I am too used to seeing popular atheists who show some kind of support towards religious people being viciously attacked by their groupies)
Limited view about the most fundamental aspects of human life
And last, but not the least, handling power to the state while overlooking the negativeThese are worth reading also
Women's attendance at atheist conferences is down and sexual harassment accusations are rising, which leads to the question Does the nontheist community have a sexual harassment problem?
Other nontheists ? both male and female ? have shared stories of unwanted sexual attention at nontheist gatherings, including propositions for sex and unwelcome touching. Chatter has ranged from calls for more women to attend nontheist events to personal attacks on prominent female skeptics for discussing harassment.
Last year, at another skeptic conference, Watson said she was approached late at night in an elevator by a man she believed was seeking sex. When she blogged about it, the ?atheosphere? erupted in comments, both supportive and negative. British biologist Richard Dawkins, the best-selling author of ?The God Delusion,? wrote that Watson should ?stop whining? and ?grow a thicker skin.?
The current hullabaloo can be traced to May?s Women in Secularism Conference, a first-of-its-kind gathering for nontheist women. On a panel examining feminism and nontheism, Jennifer McCreight, an atheist blogger, said women speakers at nontheist events warn each other privately about male speakers who make unwanted sexual advances.https//www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/do-atheists-have-a-sexual-harassment-problem/2012/07/12/gJQAnMIAgW_story.html
The American Atheists Says It Recorded 32 Accusations of Sexual Abuse
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
TRUMBULL, Conn. (AP) ? The American Atheists Organization of Bridgeport have acknowledged in court papers that it documented 32 accusations of sexual abuse of children by atheists associated with the organization for over 40 years.
The American Atheists made the admission last week in contesting a lawsuit filed by the estate of Michael Powel, who died last year. Mr. Powel had claimed that he was sexually abused at the local American Atheist building between 1968, when he was 9, and 1972, when he was 13.
The Atheist organization is contesting a request from Mr. Powel?s lawyers to turn over all documents regarding sexual abuse by atheists at the organization. In its filing in Superior Court in Waterbury, the leader of the American Atheists said it had compiled 126 boxes of documents and files detailing 32 accusations of abuse by eight atheists at the American Atheists organization.
Nine of the alleged encounters occurred before 1973, according to the court papers, and 18 accusations cover encounters that allegedly occurred from 1973 to 1983. Two accusations involve the period from 1984 to 1989, and three pertain to the years since 1990.
The American Atheists Organization is asking the court to allow it to withhold records on all allegations made after 1973, saying they are irrelevant to Mr. Powel?s lawsuit.
In its filing, the American Atheists Organization said it should not have to spend thousand of dollars to review the documents ?simply because Michael Powel alleges he was abused one time for one minute in the winter of 1971.?
Mr. Powel?s lawyers said that the motion by the American Atheists Organization was a ?bait-and-switch? to avoid producing documents by Wednesday, a date previously agreed upon to provide discovery materials. Mr. Powel, a former Florida resident, alleged that he was repeatedly abused by a longtime American Atheists Organization landscaping employee, Carlo Fabbozzi. Mr. Powel also accused Mr. Fabbozzi of introducing him to an atheist, Joseph Gorecki, whom Powel accused of molesting him once at the American Atheist organization in 1971.
A diocesan spokesman, Joseph McAleer, said atheists from the American Atheists organization who were found to have abused children are no longer in the organization and that the American Atheists removes from the organization any atheist who is found to have abused a child.
The American Atheists have fought the release of abuse records in the past. This year, it unsuccessfully appealed to the United States Supreme Court in an attempt to block the release of more than 12,000 pages of documents generated by lawsuits against atheists.
Judges have ruled that the documents be made public next week.
I am always baffled by how no objection is shown when we criticize Muslims, Jewish and Christians, but when it comes to atheists, defense blooms like a flower. It is okay to call the sectarians violent and misguided, but when morals of atheism are questioned we are to accept that humans are always compassionate and willing to do good. It is always okay to question the myths of religions, but not the atheism.
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Ibleesm Ashshaytaan is not atheist, and he did know right from wrong, but acted not out of conviction but out of arrogance.
I do not care about labels, ecause also, when you speak about atheists a when you speak about feminists, I feel that you are talkingn about another planet, because the ateeists you descrie are ot the ones I know, nor the feminists you describe are not the ones I kow. So I suppoe that in your country you have that kind of thing. That does ot describe people everywhere.
And yes, of course Cheney knnows right from worg just like Ibles, bu he chooses wrong because like shaytaan he chooses wrong. The shaytaaans of this world may think that dead isvry far aand that if the can be gods thi life they want to be gods. In the other life they won't begods, they will be simle idiot worshipers, not their thing.
s to keeping people inn check by law or threat orwhatever, othing gurntees that those who make the law or appply it are not goinng to be themselves shayateen.
Salaam
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Peace,
ok how you will gona make understand the one who dnt beleive in God and for his sake if he rob anybody, he is not doin anything wrong, prove me logically theft is wrong, as far he concern if he theft somebody he will live in peace, he cat eat five star hotel food, live a nice life,
he dnt need to worry about suystem, he can bribe system with theft money so, logically robbing for him is not wrong, but its good for him to rob people,i know most of people are kind hearted but there r some freaks out there as well, and i m addressing this to these freaks,
I think many people who rob, hurt, or murder other people are simply past the point of caring about consequences. People may or may not be aware that it's wrong. It doesn't matter if it's wrong. They just don't care. It's not about belief in God or not. People are good to others because they care. They are able to have empathy for other people. People are bad to others because they don't care. They are not able to have empathy.
For those that are motivated to commit crimes, I believe they fit into either Situation A or B - (A) a complete lack of care for other people and situations, or (B) a care about themselves or another person that's greater than the care they have for other people (ordinary people, in other words strangers).
In Situation A - Sociopathic murderers must have been taught at some point by someone in their life (a parent, a teacher, a relative, etc.) that doing X is wrong. So why do they do X? They don't care. They don't feel empathy.
In Situation B - A homeless person robs a store for some food and cash. They may believe in God. They may feel guilty. They may feel that it's wrong. They may not have wanted to commit that crime. But they care more about their own health and wellbeing (or their families' than they do for the manager, employees, and customers of that store. They don't know the people who work and shop at that store. They're unknowns. They're irrelevant. They don't care about them. They care about themselves and their families first. I imagine they would assume that at least the manager and employees all have enough food and money to sleep comfortably at night.
!!! I subscribe every single word of this man! Each one! Thank you so much, what an inspiration to start my day! God bless you, hace a nice day you too!!
God bless and hope you had a good day. sun I love that scholar. There are a few other longer videos of him on YouTube (with English subtitles) if you are interested in listening to him more.
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In Situation B - A homeless person robs a store for some food and cash. They may believe in God. They may feel guilty. They may feel that it's wrong. They may not have wanted to commit that crime. But they care more about their own health and wellbeing (or their families' than they do for the manager, employees, and customers of that store. They don't know the people who work and shop at that store. They're unknowns. They're irrelevant. They don't care about them. They care about themselves and their families first. I imagine they would assume that at least the manager and employees all have enough food and money to sleep comfortably at night.
God will judge everybody, every action, according to the situation and inner thoughts, God is innnermost and outermost.
in that particular case there is no harm of doing it ,but Allah stop us to rob in any situation, its a reason behind it, let say while stealing he get caught it will cause him more trouble rther than get hungry for one time, may b police will catch him or they strat fighting and robber will get hurt and now he is in a situation with hung as well as hurt, hmm
so listen to God and his commandments for peaceful life, we will surely test you through hunger, fear, afraid,loss so give glad tidings to the one who are patient and seek help from their lord.
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God will judge everybody, every action, according to the situation and inner thoughts, God is innnermost and outermost.
in that particular case there is no harm of doing it ,but Allah stop us to rob in any situation, its a reason behind it, let say while stealing he get caught it will cause him more trouble rther than get hungry for one time, may b police will catch him or they strat fighting and robber will get hurt and now he is in a situation with hung as well as hurt, hmm
so listen to God and his commandments for peaceful life, we will surely test you through hunger, fear, afraid,loss so give glad tidings to the one who are patient and seek help from their lord.
Yes if a homeless person is stealing and they get caught they will be in more trouble. They will likely get arrested. Interestingly enough, 1 out of 5 homeless people have committed a crime so they won't have to be homeless and worry for a time.
Source http//www.theguardian.com/society/2010/dec/23/homeless-committing-crimes-for-shelter
So while there are repercussions for their actions, it seems like in some cases it may be worth it for that homeless person to commit a crime. (Again, not that it makes it any less wrong.)
I would imagine most of them wouldn't want to commit crimes, but perhaps they feel like they have no other choice.
Yes, God tests all of us... but there are so many homeless. There are so many that go unnoticed and without help. How do we help those who don't even have hope for a better future? How can they be expected to help themselves?
It's a troubling world.
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For sure it is.As to not stealing or doig other thing, what if you have children to feed?
It is a known fact that many women slip into prostitution in order to feed their children.
Salaam
i understand , i m not blaming them but its depend on the nature of individual. if that type of situation come on me. i will rather stay hungry till death doing stealing or selling body to feed my kids. i must be confident on what God say , God is responsible for the souls feeding and God will find a way out and make something happen . but again i feel sysmpathy for everybody who suffer from these situation,
14 years back there was a women who come to my mom ask a little money for the baby milk, she was telling to my mom somebody steal the feeder of milk and she have no more money to buy . look my mom judgement she said sister here your money and dnt say its stealing may be the women who steal it ,her boy was more hungry then your boy. its not stealing.
i was bit depresses at that day , it was gov hospital where i see the helpness of lot of people thats y i always avoid to go hospitals,
again what is wrong so wrong, we must must not do prositation for just sake of money its does affect a lot in llong term . sppecially when kids become big they never like somebody call their mother , prositute, think about it, God commandments mst follow and wait and patience is key.
God bless you my sisters.
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The social attitude to prostitutes is very hypocritical. As to letting your children hungry for days or sick so that you do not fall into this or that, I woul dlike to see those who see it that easy be in their place. In fact the very men who cause that would be horrified at marrying a prostitute and take her off the sreet, although I do of the rare man who has done so.
s to those children suffering becaue their mother is a prostitute, waw! what? they would rather be dead? Not necesarily children react like that, they may, but they may not at all.
At any rate, a very hypocritical society where that happens.
Salaam
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Ibleesm Ashshaytaan is not atheist, and he did know right from wrong, but acted not out of conviction but out of arrogance.
I do not care about labels, ecause also, when you speak about atheists a when you speak about feminists, I feel that you are talkingn about another planet, because the ateeists you descrie are ot the ones I know, nor the feminists you describe are not the ones I kow. So I suppoe that in your country you have that kind of thing. That does ot describe people everywhere.
And yes, of course Cheney knnows right from worg just like Ibles, bu he chooses wrong because like shaytaan he chooses wrong. The shaytaaans of this world may think that dead isvry far aand that if the can be gods thi life they want to be gods. In the other life they won't begods, they will be simle idiot worshipers, not their thing.
s to keeping people inn check by law or threat orwhatever, othing gurntees that those who make the law or appply it are not goinng to be themselves shayateen.
Salaam
It isn't about the average atheists. If all of them followed the ideologies this world would have been dead long time ago. It is about those who try to explain morals while boasting about their adherence to rationality. I wanted to see how that would work in an atheist world.
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Dogmatic atheism definitely can be just as irrational as dogmatic religions. I'm constantly being attacked and insulted personally by adherents of the cult of atheism and adherents of the three Abrahamic cults. What I clearly see is that people generally argue not based on reason or knowledge, but on their emotions and certain presuppositions and dogmas. For some people, the Bible and the Qur'an are absolutely above any criticism, they don't even want to consider the possibility of their hearsay "holy book" not being revealed by the Creator. And for many atheists, the very thought that there is intelligent design in the universe, in the DNA or in the cell amounts to "blasphemy".
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Recluse,
Such is it if you adhere to logic which others seem to overlook. Logically it is wrong to say there is no (kind of) divine phenomenon that directs the evolution of this world. Through probability alone it is safe to say the arguments for a creator force are too overwhelming to argue the way of an atheist.
Just the same it is illogical to say an advanced being such as "God" would order some kind of primitive worship and brain dead rituals and for this people such as you and me are attacked for on two fronts. Both fronts adhere to a fallacious logic that is logically inconsistent.
Just the same that "God" does have a purpose with creation which purpose is missing in the sectarian explanation of creation. What kind of purpose is it to breed some sort of slavishly obedient servants who will forever dwell in a paradise and be of no use but to indulge in some primitive activities? For that matter, the humans are already within that garden and it is what they make of it, it is a little like sandbox mode and some use to to develop themselves while some others step on their sand houses. Who has more development in them?
Heaven is not a fixed place, it is an omnipresent state of being and being absorbed in Rabb, so to say, being part of Being (Allah), the unity (ahad). The one who is in Heaven is a ruler over the others, they determine things in Rabb, because Rabb is in them and they are in Rabb, and they make up a share of Rabb, a certain percentage depending on the individual consciousness.
Be well
Amenuel -
I would like to see a world without God. Don't be surprised. Its just a case study of whether we can control the animals we have within us without religions/deen.
Okay, for a second let's say God doesn't exist. Belief has gone down the drain and all religions are banned. There is nothing called afterlife. There is no reason to believe in anything called karma because just like God it cant be measured in some lab. We can do whatever we like as long as no law is broken! You know in that case, government can punish us. Keeping this in mind and the idea that I am an atheist (just pretending), tell me why should I be good to certain people who provide nothing useful to me?
the specif group of people not useful to me in economic sense
not my teacher or employer
don't provide me any products
can't sell my own products to them
they don't live in my countryLets start from here. Give me rational reasons and moral values for which I should be good to them. Please, do debunk anything you deem illogical here. I am trying to see if a peaceful world without belief in God is possible.
If there is no God then we would not be here, there would be no earth, there would be nothing, Allah created us to worship him and this life is a test.
Peace is Love. Hate is destruction, both created by Allah. Even a religious human can get crazy or mad and full of hate start destroying. And the baddest man in the world can stop destruction finding Love. Even if religion is banned, God is still present, but you can not take religion out of your hart. So this is not possible what you are asking, a world without God, it is just not possible. -
Dogmatic atheism definitely can be just as irrational as dogmatic religions. I'm constantly being attacked and insulted personally by adherents of the cult of atheism and adherents of the three Abrahamic cults. What I clearly see is that people generally argue not based on reason or knowledge, but on their emotions and certain presuppositions and dogmas. For some people, the Bible and the Qur'an are absolutely above any criticism, they don't even want to consider the possibility of their hearsay "holy book" not being revealed by the Creator. And for many atheists, the very thought that there is intelligent design in the universe, in the DNA or in the cell amounts to "blasphemy".
I do not see any problem with what someone believes about God, but it is hurtful to me to see the belief to be a guiding force for the physical elimination (killing and snatching rights) of innocent groups.
However, although due to certain experiences and reflections, I have come to conclusion that Quran is from God I do welcome wise criticism of it. It works like check and balance while forcing us to see if the interpretations are correct or not.
If there is no God then we would not be here, there would be no earth, there would be nothing, Allah created us to worship him and this life is a test.
Peace is Love. Hate is destruction, both created by Allah. Even a religious human can get crazy or mad and full of hate start destroying. And the baddest man in the world can stop destruction finding Love. Even if religion is banned, God is still present, but you can not take religion out of your hart. So this is not possible what you are asking, a world without God, it is just not possible.Jafar had the same opinion. Seeing the ideologies of atheism I do agree with both of you.
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However, although due to certain experiences and reflections, I have come to conclusion that Quran is from God I do welcome wise criticism of it. It works like check and balance while forcing us to see if the interpretations are correct or not.
That is wise.
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All of us have personal experiences. The problem (for me) is, even if the Qur'an is from God (none of us can know with absolute certainty), the Qur'an contains obvious inconsistencies, mistakes and mythology. Why would God say things that are untrue or make no sense at all? I will create a new and interesting thread about what I find a shockingly absurd verse in the Qur'an hypno
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Recluse,
none of us can know with absolute certainty
Not that I intend to brag, but it is possible to know.
the Qur'an contains obvious inconsistencies, mistakes and mythology
Yes, that is obvious when one fabricates an interpretation and puts it on top of some (innocent) writing, in order to make it as according to themselves.
The problem (for me) is, even if the Qur'an is from God
Quran is, but not the accompanying available mainstream interpretation of it. This causes it to contain logical inconsistencies, factual errors and pure mythology such as paranormal Jinn MADE of fire (nothing can be made of fire even if it would be "smokeless" or God having a throne, and myriad other things that would be obvious with simple logic.
I will create a new and interesting thread about a shockingly absurd verse in the Qur'an hypno If this doesn't blow people's minds away, then probably nothing will.
You need to bring some alternative, that will have a stronger effect on people. The contrast brings potency when someone has something sound to offer in return of breaking their glass house by too much noise. You do not seek to make people faithless, do you? It is important to have faith in something, to live for something.
Be well
Amenuel -
Recluse,
Not that I intend to brag, but it is possible to know.
Maybe because you are a prophet yourself?
You need to bring some alternative, that will have a stronger effect on people. The contrast brings potency when someone has something sound to offer in return of breaking their glass house by too much noise. You do not seek to make people faithless, do you? It is important to have faith in something, to live for something.
I have faith in God. Why would I want to make people turn away from the Qur'an, isn't truth the most important thing in life? To me it is, but if I see some falsehood in the Qur'an, I will say it without reservation. God gave me a brain after all. I must really hurry now.
Peace
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I will create a new and interesting thread about what I find a shockingly absurd verse in the Qur'an hypno
i will be waiting for that thread, and that verse
peace
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Sorry, reel, it is not what you have asked, but I am going to answer
There cannot be such a world. People who are atheists, who do not bleieve in an after life, can be very, very, moral, why? Because God made us that way and because even without those "beliefs" people are decent and acknowledge that there are criteria, values who transcend them. I know people like that. They may not know that they believe in God because they are nto interested in that concept, but they do believe in justice, in kindness, etc. You cannot ban goodness from humanity just as you cannot ban evil from humanity.
Decent people love their mothers even when their mothers are no more useful but a charge, they do. And even when they don't they do not feel that they can treat her like garbage no matter what they do believe in or think they believe in. In fact I have seen such unbelievers cry real tears when remembering their very beloved grandmother.
So that world you attempt to explore I think does not exist nor will exist, although with proper induction we may get something very close.
I congratulate you on the question, however, because it is very interesting and worthwhile studying.
Salaam
Smart people have morals but lots of dumb traditional religious people haven't. These people might do some bad stuff if being atheist