A Perspective on Salah
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peace uq,
Thanks for sharing your analysis. I do not agree with all of it, however it was more cogent than other salat articles that I have read.
I found your point 19.4 interesting/novel, albeit I do not agree with it. I think the primary weaknesses of the article were establishing "salat" means "prayer", analysis of the "qiblah" verses, 4102 and SaBiH verses.
I know you are aware of these articles already but in case anyone wants to read my analysis of the issues I raised above
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html (analysis of qiblah verses)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html (4102)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.htmlI think we don't need all these explanations because the Salah and the numbers of rakaats are well mentioned in the Hadith corpus. See here http//kalamullah.com/Books/The%20Salah%20of%20a%20Believer.pdf
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peace uq,
Thanks for sharing your analysis. I do not agree with all of it, however it was more cogent than other salat articles that I have read.
I found your point 19.4 interesting/novel, albeit I do not agree with it. I think the primary weaknesses of the article were establishing "salat" means "prayer", analysis of the "qiblah" verses, 4102 and SaBiH verses.
I know you are aware of these articles already but in case anyone wants to read my analysis of the issues I raised above
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html (analysis of qiblah verses)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html (4102)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.htmlPeace Wakas,
Thanks for taking the time to read the paper.
It's interesting to read my first post after seven and a half years and see how my views have mutated over time with more study.
I think it was prudent of me to state back in 2008 in post #4 "My studies are on-going."
And congrats on hitting the 10,000 posts mark! You're officially an old-timer! D
I got this doubt in today's Isha salah while i was reciting
If i assume you both,Wakas and Uq are correct then as per this ayah ALLAH subhanavatala has not guided any of the Muslims who recited this ayah, minimum 17 times a day for the past 1400 years if not at least 1200 years !!!!and of course he is not guiding millions of Muslims even today and very handful of Muslim like you are rightly guided that too after 1200 years !
Is that true !
But ALLAH subhnavatala is the one who hears dua
do you have any answer for this question -
Salam Pervez,
In terms of the form of alh, it is certain that the Muslims have been practicing the five-daily prayers in its current form since circa 900-1000 C.E., we know this by way of the compilations of the adth corpora and other various jurisprudential texts. As for its form prior to this time, I have found no historical primary evidence demonstrating the existence of the five-daily prayers.
But this, dear brother, is completely beside the point. Let us not forget that making an argument based on the number of people who believe in a certain belief is a logical fallacy. The fancy term for this is "argumentum ad numerum," which is Latin for "appeal to the number." There is an estimated two billion Christians in the world who believe that Jesus is the son of God ( ), this is no way means that they are right in this belief. In a similar vein, the great number of Muslims who practice alh in its current form, in no way proves that it is the method of alh intended by God for the believers.
I would strongly recommend for you to study the Quran for yourself. There is a plethora of online sources that can help you to study the Quran, including translations, dictionaries, and reference grammars.
Here is my own perspective on alh https//1drv.ms/b/s!AkotlTY_voT4qgAIL7pqLK3Yaof0
If you seek the truth, God will help you find it.
Remember God's promise And God increases them who seek guidance with guidance. 1976
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Salam Pervez,
In terms of the form of alh, it is certain that the Muslims have been practicing the five-daily prayers in its current form since circa 900-1000 C.E., we know this by way of the compilations of the adth corpora and other various jurisprudential texts. As for its form prior to this time, I have found no historical primary evidence demonstrating the existence of the five-daily prayers.
Walaikumsalam Rahamatullahi Wabarakathahu,Uq
So this is your answer for my question
You mean to ALLAH subhanavatala has misguided all Muslims after 900-1000 C.E
and the verse 01.06 had no effect upon MuslimBut this, dear brother, is completely beside the point. Let us not forget that making an argument based on the number of people who believe in a certain belief is a logical fallacy. The fancy term for this is "argumentum ad numerum," which is Latin for "appeal to the number."
Logical fallacy !,you mean to say i have to judge the divine things with man made philosophy .BTW , as per logical fallacy , everything which is old ,cannot be incorrect Fallacy Appeal to Novelty
what is this Uq,Your philosophy sometimes says old things are better and it denies them on few occasion .Do i have to follow the traditions or not .i think your logical fallacy itself is the best example for wrong reasoning
since we are talking about Quran ,pl give the proof from Quran not from made made philosophyThere is an estimated two billion Christians in the world who believe that Jesus is the son of God ( ), this is no way means that they are right in this belief. In a similar vein, the great number of Muslims who practice alh in its current form, in no way proves that it is the method of alh intended by God for the believers.
Quran has guided Christians but they prefer to choose the wrong path but Quran claims to guide Muslim and as per you ALLAH subhanavatala has misguided Muslims as well .As per you ,trillions of Muslim who cried for the true guidance were turn down and ALLAH subhanavtala has made them wander blindly as he did with Christians
I would strongly recommend for you to study the Quran for yourself. There is a plethora of online sources that can help you to study the Quran, including translations, dictionaries, and reference grammars.
Here is my own perspective on alh https//onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F884BE3F36952D4A!5372&authkey=!AD4SYZrfp8931LA&ithint=file%2cpdf
If you seek the truth, God will help you find it.
Remember God's promise And God increases them who seek guidance with guidance. 1976
Sorry to say Uq,first make me one thing very clear
did ALLAH subhanvatal has guided us or he mislead us even after we supplicated him to guide us to right path, at least 17 times a day
Till than i feel Mazhar bhai's view are correct in this link about salah
Do you have any answer for this verses i mentioned in this thread
First give me a satisfactory answer for these question then we can talk about your paper
if you cannot answer these verses then what is the use of talking about something which is a misconception -
Is the number of salaat prayers 5 or 3
look here ---> http//www.realquran.net/quran-articles/6-religious-questions/2-is-the-number-of-salaat-prayers-5-or-3
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Peace Pervez,
Reciting the Quran is no guarantee for guidance, belief in the Quran is what guarantees guidance.
Irrespective of common practice, no matter how popular, the Quran's directives override our notions of correctness.
My reference to the fallacy of "argumentum ad numerum" was made to demonstrate that the popularity of a belief does not make the belief true.
Peace Comrox,
You address an important point.
Most of my friends are Sunni Muslims and all of my family are Sunni Muslims, and of those who I personally know to observe the five-daily prayers strictly and rigidly are not more than about 60%.
But more importantly, the practice of prayer practiced by Sunni Muslims, if presented as God's intended directives, I believe to be extra-Quranic.
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Peace Comrox,
You address an important point.
Most of my friends are Sunni Muslims and all of my family are Sunni Muslims, and of those who I personally know to observe the five-daily prayers strictly and rigidly are not more than about 60%.
But more importantly, the practice of prayer practiced by Sunni Muslims, if presented as God's intended directives, I believe to be extra-Quranic.
Peace uq,
That's fascinating that you've discovered the same findings with the people you know personally as the Pew researchers have come up with.
To me, the fact that almost 40% of Muslims worldwide don't perform 5 daily prayers proves that this cannot be something that is decreed to all by God. It seems either impossible or unimportant in the lives of a lot of these Muslims.
Interesting how the Muslims surveyed were much more likely to observe Ramadan than 5 daily prayers... (compare 63% to 93% - a 30% jump)
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My perspective on alh modulated as of 19/04/2016
https//onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F884BE3F36952D4A!5372&authkey=!AD4SYZrfp8931LA&ithint=file%2cpdf
Selam,
i have seen wonderful work you done on salah and i want to ask you if you can read my post and say to me if i am right or wrong about the salah. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608453.0
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Peace,
Your study is good.
We agree on many points.
Keep studying and God will guide you further still.
Selam,
Thank you very much i will keep on learning
Peace
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I have composed a simplified presentation of "A Perspective on Salah" with an introduction of why the Quran should be used to understand Salah. It's called "Is Salah in the Quran?"
Please note, the English is very basic in order to include the many non-native English speakers on this website and out there in the world.
It is a good introduction to Salah for those who charge the Quran with deficiency, and is suitable for Sunnis and curious non-Muslims alike. Please feel free to share.
My perspective on Salah has remained largely unchanged since the original post in 2008. The only thing worth noting here is that the phrase "wa-zulafan min al-layl" is validly interpreted to mean "and at twilight periods of the night."
The simplified presentation https//1drv.ms/b/s!AkotlTY_voT402ZM1b6GuNkX4mmZ?e=MoxDgh
The original 2008 paper https//1drv.ms/b/s!AkotlTY_voT402VJHzyLj6lYZjfC?e=V0XGe3
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peace uq, all,
Since we are updating our views
There are two aspects to the SBH question
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IF one takes SBH when mentioned along with a time as = salat, then can one make them fit time-wise? I consider this impossible and I have not read an article attempting to do so.
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What is SBH? Once we understand this, we can determine if upholding/establishing the regular/timed salat is an act of SBH itself or not. Thus, potentially making "SBH is part of salat" moot.
I wrote an article on SaBiH and after careful analysis it turned out the timings may fit. I believe this was a unique finding I have not read elsewhere.
I liked your presentation but my prior comments still relevant I feel. I particularly liked the simple style of delivery.
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Salam bro,
I should make it clear that I use the Arabic language without further qualification. Your approach tends to derive new meanings based on the use of a word in the Quran. Although there is merit in this approach if a word happened to be unknown or unclear, but fortunately for us the Classical Arabic language has been preserved to a large extent in various writings.
I have never taken the approach you take as it is a slippery slope and can lead every reader to deriving their own meaning for each contested word. To prove this point, you translate Ṣalāh as "bond," Sam Gerrans translates it as "duty," another writer translates it as "teaching."
"Ṣalāh" to me is "prayer" in the strongest possible terms, it cannot be anything else. To our knowledge, that is how the 6th century Arabs used the word, and that is how I understand it.
I find no need to reinvent the language. The Quran claims to be an Arabic Quran, so I just take every word for what it means in the CA lexicons.
I read your article of Tasbīḥ and it's great! Well done!
You will find that I made the same conclusions about Tasbīḥ back in 2008. That is to say, Tasbīḥ forms a part of Ṣalāh when it is ordained at the times of Ṣalāh, and it forms a part of the general remembrance of God in all other times outside the times of Ṣalāh. However, we disagree on the meaning of Tasbīḥ, to me it is simply "glorification," whereas you derive a novel meaning which I find unnecessary.
One comment I have is that you suggest the following verses may be a form of hyperbole
1962 ...provision in heaven morning and evening
4046 ...exposed to fire morning and evening
255 ...dictated to him morning and eveningI think they would have been hyperbole if the terms used were "laylan wa-naharan," however, the terms used in these 3 verses refer to specific times of the day as used by the Arabs of the 6th century.
I created a schematic of the various times of the day as defined in the CA lexicons, however, it's in Arabic https//1drv.ms/u/s!AkotlTY_voT402cGaDI3Da_op5Bt?e=qaqlOQ
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peace bro,
Whilst I may share some of the misgivings of one aspect of my approach, my use of "new/novel meanings" is quite limited and I often choose meanings that can encompass others within it. In any case words are words but the most important factor is if our chosen word or understanding actually fits with The Quran, i.e. does it pass The Quran test. I think we would both agree on that.
"Ṣalāh" to me is "prayer" in the strongest possible terms, it cannot be anything else. To our knowledge, that is how the 6th century Arabs used the word, and that is how I understand it.
That is a very strong statement, in fact I dont think you could have worded it more firmly! ) So let's put it to The Quran test, with the first example, feel free to use your own translation
2945 Recite what is inspired to you of the book, and uphold the salat; surely the salat stops evil and bad things, and surely the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows what you do.
I'm sure many of us here, including yourself, encounter people who uphold the prayer (as you term it) but engage in evil and bad things, so how can God claim (with confidence) salat stops such things?
However, we disagree on the meaning of Tasbīḥ, to me it is simply "glorification," whereas you derive a novel meaning which I find unnecessary.
I translated it as "glorification" so I'm not sure what you mean here.
I think they would have been hyperbole if the terms used were "laylan wa-naharan,"
That is an interesting point. Is that a known Arabic idiom? I'm not sure if it was hyperbole or not. Of course if we take it to mean actual times of the day then that will raise questions/issues, e.g. heaven, hell etc have mornings and evenings, provision is only twice per day etc
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I do not get this,quote
"I'm sure many of us here, including yourself, encounter people who uphold the prayer (as you term it) but engage in evil and bad things, so how can God claim (with confidence) salat stops such things?".
How can one engage in evil and bad things if they are busy engaging in "the Salat".. I take it to mean at least the time taken for "the salat" stops people engaging in evil. Remembering GOD 24/7 can do it a little better as the more we have GOD in mind the less evil we commit.
However humans forget easily through anger, desires.ambition...etc.
If GOD continuously reminds us to repent daily, then surely nothing can stop us for good. Otherwise all those who do "the Salat" will be angels at all times!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam Wakas,
There are several seemingly anomalous uses of the word Ṣalāh and its plural Ṣalawāt in the Quran 2945, 95, 1187, 999, and 2240.
In these verses, translating "Prayer" to "Ṣalāh" appears to be incompatible with the context of each verse and so it leads some to think that the meaning of "Ṣalāh" cannot be "Prayer." But what of the other 40 instances in the Quran where "Ṣalāh" is used in which the translation "Prayer" fits perfectly? Do we use the 5 anomalous instances to override the 40 normative instances? Is this a wise approach? I think it is not.
If we look carefully at the 5 verses I have listed above, we find good explanations for each of them.
2945 — Here, we are told that the Ṣalāh "prevents" or "wards off" evil and bad things. What does the Quran say about those who perform the Ṣalāh? They are reverent (223, they are God-fearing (23), they are humble (232), they are believers (23), they are righteous (7170), they uphold their contracts (2177), they are patient (2177), they are truthful (2177), and they are those whose hearts tremble when God is mentioned (82). When all these characteristics are united in a single individual, and he maintains these characteristics over many years, how likely is that individual going to engage in evil and bad things? Especially since God is an ally to the believers. Remember also that Ṣalāh is "burdensome" except for the humble (245).
95 — This verse is often used to protest against the normative understanding of Ṣalāh, the argument being "How can the mushrikeen perform Ṣalāh"? This is simply a rushed conclusion and an oversight of the crucial phrase "...if they repent..." Repentance is used in the Quran for both Muslims and non-Muslims as evidenced by verses such as 573-74, 9125-126, 974, 111-3, 1150-52, and many other verses which address non-Muslims who are told to repent. Therefore, the crucial phrase in 95 is "...if they repent..." which is their embracing of the truth and then subsequently establishing the Ṣalāh.
1187 — The sentence "O Shu'ayb, does your Ṣalāh order you that we leave what our fathers worship?" is a quotation from the people of Shu'ayb, it is not God speaking. God is quoting what they said. Did they know what they were witnessing when they saw Shu'ayb perform Ṣalāh? How much knowledge did they have about the Ṣalāh? Did they even witness him perform Ṣalāh or did they simply hear rumours about his performing Ṣalāh? More importantly, are we going to use the quotation of unbelievers to guide our understanding of Ṣalāh, when God has already laid out every single detail about Ṣalāh in other verses? This is an important point.
999 — The CA dictionaries list "seeking forgiveness and supplication" as one of the many meanings of "Ṣalāh." I take this to be the intended meaning here.
2240 — The CA dictionaries also list “Ṣalawāt” as meaning “Synagogues” this makes perfect sense in the context of the verse.
In view of this, I find no need to stray from the normative meaning of "Prayer."
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peace uq,
Re 2945
You said "how likely is that individual going to engage in evil and bad things?"
Whilst I agree your analysis suggests it is very unlikely, but as you know the Arabic is firm (dare I say unequivocal) on this that salat stops/prevents. To me that seems an unusual statement.
As you can see from GL's response he takes at another way as he recognises it would be near impossible for it to mean times outwith salat.As a side note, I do not translate "tanha" as "stop/prevents/wards off" as I go with its most common meaning in Quran and that is "forbids". Of course if one translates it as "forbids" this results in some very interesting consequences.
Re 95
As you may know I wrote an article on this issue. For your explanation to work it involves a conversion/reversion or as you put it "their embracing of the truth". No matter which way you slice it, that would have to be considered an exception, not only to the usage of "taba" but also in terms of no compulsion in deen . I find that problematic but others may not.Re 1187
Exactly, you have to interpret/assume the statement they made is somehow incorrect. Note how in 1188 Shu'ayb does not respond in a way that suggests they were mistaken about salat, and by coincidence anha/forbid pops up in use again.Re 999
Yes, this is an interesting one. Not sure how much we can conclude on this usage.Re 2240
This is an interesting usage. I haven't concluded on this one yet. But yes if we go by CA then what you said is definitely possible.It is good that you have pondered over some "anomalous instances" but I don't think your admission of 5 "anomalous instances" warrants the certainty of your previous statement which may give the impression it is impossible for it to mean anything other than "prayer". What if there are more than 5 "anomalous instances"?
We must be careful not to fall afoul of a false dichotomy / either/or logical fallacy, i.e. the only option is it means A or B, i.e. prayer or else. What if the truth lies somewhere in between?Let's take a closer look at the verse that is commonly cited to support salat means prayer and that is 4102.
"And if you are among them so uphold the salat to/for them..."
What does "to/for them" mean and imply?"...then when they have SJD then let them..."
Why do only "they" SJD?Reference
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
