undisputed facts about Quran
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What I do not get is why people get sensitive if Mohammed is the subject.
I did not say anything wrong about him, I only said that it can not be proved with only the quran that a man named Mohammed who lived 1400 years ago in the middle east is the receiver of the quran. If people insist that it is him, then that's totally ok with me but the fact stands that that understanding is purely based on Bukhary & Co, it can not be derived from the quran.Mohammed (if he existed) is for a lot of people who believe in the quran more then other messengers, you can witness this in this forum a lot, and that is I think not really healthy.
BLUE I have no idea.
From my understanding the receiver of the quran is mohammed (the meaning of the word) but can be anybody and is in fact not important unless you want to study the origin of the quran.You re evading the issue and on top of it you say that people get ensitive on Muhammad. I have already said, I do not care which name it is, or whether it is a name or an epithet or whatever, what I say is again, there is obviously in the Qur'an a person who is addressed as the messenger sent y God to transmit th Qur'an. And I have said that it would be really intriguing why God mentions so many messengers and talks about the scriptures or missions given to them, and when we come to Muhammad or whatever name to cknowledge to him the same as to other prophets, neither more nor less.
It is not being sensitive, it is being intrigued by and attituted that seems inconsistent. o His name is not Mhyammed, why would God name very other Prophet and not the one He is talking about in so much of Qur'an, We have Musa, Ibrahim, Yusuf, Maryam, 3ia, et etc. etc. o either the one who got revealed the Qur'an is not named either it is called Muhammad or somethin gelse we have missed in te Qur'an. Either there is an answer to that which is logical and consistent or there is not. I guess what you are saying is that there is ot an answer to that.
I do get that the Qur'an is revealed to everybdy who cares to receive it, but so has been the case with every previous or later scripture, that is o answer nor an explantion for making the reception of the Qur'an, as narrated in the Qur'an itself an exception in the way that God has dealt with the Prophets. Was Muhmmad to be an outcast amonst the Prophets, without name nor recognition of his mission?
Nobody, well not I, am aking to crown Myhammad for president or anything la that that you call ensitive, I am just at a loss, always have been at a loss as to why he should be singled out for divesting him of the usual things which are vested on other prophets, like a name, an existence and an aknowledgement of his mission.
Salaam
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lol, you said its bukhari and company who claimed that, and then i handle their case becoz they are not alive, and in the light of historical evidences and historical records by multiple chains of multiple regions make them win the case,
Yes they win I loose.
But in the end you and all of your resources still have no quranic proof, still hearsay.on the other hand a person mr bender deny to accept the perosnalty of that perosn and moreover he dnt have any evidence so far not any witness soo far,, not any historical record ,,so far , not any logical record so far,, in light of his own persoanl idea, court by law given the decison in the favor of bukhari and company.
thats what it mean, lol
and in the ending statement of mr bender he clearly say i have no idea, who recieved it, so case by default is illogical when there is no idea who recieved it ? how can be an idea its not muhammad ? moreover its the issue 1400 years old only history can verify it. and history already play their role,
questions and answers of mr bender contradict with eachother.
peace and have a good day.
Me having no idea does not make your assumption true.
And what history are you talking about?May I ask why you switched to 3rd person?
as a good friend i want to share one verse with mr bender. hope so it will help, quran is very helpful for people always .
Edip-Layth (Quran A Reformist Translation)
3340 Muhammed was not the father of any man among you, but he was the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. God is fully aware of all things.The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation)
3340 Mohammed is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. And God is fully aware of all things.Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
3340 Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men,but is God's Apostle and the Seal of all Prophets And God has indeed full knowledge of everything.Rashad Khalifa (The Final Testament)
3340 Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
3340 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is God?s Messenger and the closing seal of all Prophets. God is Knower of all things.there are three main parts of this verse for believers , first is muhammad is not father of any men, second , he is the last prophet , third God is knower of all things,
third thing clear everything , lol
and God is telling us that muhmmad(praised one) is the last prophet, what else left moreover the interpretation is not by any bukhari and company group.burden of proof is always on ...... you.
Nice verse but can you highlight for me the part where it says that Mohammed is the receiver of the book we call the quran?
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Nice verse but can you highlight for me the part where it says that Mohammed is the receiver of the book we call the quran?
ok so do you want me to teach you 2+2 = 4
ok then last prophet = last revelaed book( quran)
second last = second last revealed book(bible)or do you also have anyother book apart from quran ,
let me guess what will b your next question,
show me a verse from quran, 2+2= 4
hence you did not show me a verse this math equation is wrong,,,, rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Yes they win I loose.
yeh thats what happen when you claim something without proof , you just waste your court fee( i mean time)
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You re evading the issue and on top of it you say that people get ensitive on Muhammad. I have already said, I do not care which name it is, or whether it is a name or an epithet or whatever,
I did not say Huruf gets sensitive but people, I know that it is for you not a sensitive subject.
It is not being sensitive, it is being intrigued by and attituted that seems inconsistent. o His name is not Mhyammed, why would God name very other Prophet and not the one He is talking about in so much of Qur'an, We have Musa, Ibrahim, Yusuf, Maryam, 3ia, et etc. etc. o either the one who got revealed the Qur'an is not named either it is called Muhammad or somethin gelse we have missed in te Qur'an. Either there is an answer to that which is logical and consistent or there is not. I guess what you are saying is that there is ot an answer to that.
RED yes that is all what I am saying, from the quran alone there is no answer to this question, at least I did not find any and I never read any from someone else.
It's actually very simple those who insist that it was Mohammed and that it can be proved from the quran that it was him, then bring on the verses.I do get that the Qur'an is revealed to everybdy who cares to receive it, but so has been the case with every previous or later scripture, that is o answer nor an explantion for making the reception of the Qur'an, as narrated in the Qur'an itself an exception in the way that God has dealt with the Prophets. Was Muhmmad to be an outcast amonst the Prophets, without name nor recognition of his mission?
Nobody, well not I, am aking to crown Myhammad for president or anything la that that you call ensitive, I am just at a loss, always have been at a loss as to why he should be singled out for divesting him of the usual things which are vested on other prophets, like a name, an existence and an aknowledgement of his mission.
Salaam
what I say is again, there is obviously in the Qur'an a person who is addressed as the messenger sent y God to transmit th Qur'an. And I have said that it would be really intriguing why God mentions so many messengers and talks about the scriptures or missions given to them, and when we come to Muhammad or whatever name to cknowledge to him the same as to other prophets, neither more nor less.
There are a lot of good people (including messengers) in the quran without a name.
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ok so do you want me to teach you 2+2 = 4
ok then last prophet = last revelaed book( quran)
second last = second last revealed book(bible)or do you also have anyother book apart from quran ,
let me guess what will b your next question,
show me a verse from quran, 2+2= 4
hence you did not show me a verse this math equation is wrong,,,, rotfl rotfl rotfl
I also used to do these kind of maths.
yeh thats what happen when you claim something without proof , you just waste your court fee( i mean time)
You are the one who is claiming something. I said I do NOT know. So if you have something better than the math above then please enlighten me if not then I guess you just know as much as I do.
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ok so do you want me to teach you 2+2 = 4
ok then last prophet = last revelaed book( quran)
second last = second last revealed book(bible)or do you also have anyother book apart from quran ,
let me guess what will b your next question,
show me a verse from quran, 2+2= 4
hence you did not show me a verse this math equation is wrong,,,, rotfl rotfl rotfl
Salaamun Bender,
Don't you have wall around where you are sitting, go hit your head instead brickwall
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For me the traditional theory, thus a man named Mohammed who lived 1400 years ago in mecca who received the quran, is a likely as a woman named Sof?a who lived 3000 years ago in Cadiz who received the quran.
Surprising considering
http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/External-References-Islam-Hoyland.pdf -
Salaamun Bender,
Don't you have wall around where you are sitting, go hit your head instead brickwall
good advise actually. but quote him not me. i dnt want to get myself blame ,lol
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I also used to do these kind of maths.
excellent atleast you beleive in math.
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There are a lot of good people (including messengers) in the quran without a name.
I know, amonst them the wives of some of the prophets that have a name. However there is plenty of mention with name of people who received scriptures and also of people who did not receive scriptures. Qur'an is upposed to be the contrasting scripture to check the authenticity fo othr scriptures, at least we all use it as such or purport to, so there are very legitimte questions as to why the prophet of the Qur'an should be singled out to be left without a name to name him. Because there i a prohet who received and trnasmitted the Qur'n to people, or is that also questionned? Was the Qur'an handed down to a cooperative? r depoited nonymously somewhere.
I know that we all receive the Qur'an individually in our fitr, the sign in the horizon and within ourselves. No need to go into tht we are all agreed on it. But there is this scripture which we all use, so how did it get to us?
Salaam
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But there is this scripture which we all use, so how did it get to us?
Salaam
sister huruf, sometimes math works, lets play math, equation.
left hand side = right hand side. equation proved.
first solve the left hand side,
there is a scripture thats how we get it,answer lies in the scripture, interestingly in the verse 19 of chapter 6.
619 Say (O Messenger), "What could be the greatest witness?? Say, ?God is Witness between me and you. This Qur?an has been revealed to me so that I may warn you as well as whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that there are other deities besides God?? Say, ?I bear no such witness.? Say, ?He is the One God. I disown what you associate with Him.?
548 (O Messenger) We have sent to you this Divine scripture, setting forth the truth. It confirms the remaining truth in the earlier scriptures since it is a Watcher over them. So, judge between them by what God has revealed, and do not follow their desires diverging from the truth that has come to you.
according to left hand side this scripture is started from one person who was definately the last prophet /reciver of scripture and then it carry on to the generations including us .
right hand side who is the last prophet? and how we know he is the last prophet, and how we know scripture (quran) is the last scripture? can we have any hints from quran regarding this? very simple,
here you go.
3144 And Mohammed is but a messenger, like many messengers who have passed before him. If he dies or is killed will you turn back on your heels? And whoever turns back on his heels, he will not harm God in the least. And God will recompense the thankful.
472 And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.
3340 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is God?s Messenger and the closing seal of all Prophets. God is Knower of all things.
what we see here.from above three verses. muhammad was the last prophet who recieved last scripture.and God is telling us to beleive what sent down to muhammad.
now the equation is like this
LHS=RHS . according to quran
LHS=RHS accoridng to early history by muslims,
LHS=RHS according to early non muslim histories as well.
equation proved.
and for the people who dnt beleive i have a verse after the first verse which i posted. have a look into it.
620 Those to whom We have given the Book know it as they know their children. Those who lost their souls, they do not believe.
621 And who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.this verse is telling us God know and God is telling us there will be some people who will not gona beleive and its happening from last 1400 years. lol so not be be worried much. it will happen untill judgement day.
peace and God bless you all
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Surprising considering
http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/External-References-Islam-Hoyland.pdfThank you! Have been reading it since yesterday.
I can not verify the sources and the dates but still very interesting.
What I find interesting is that it reminds me of Keyser Soze, no one of the sources met him, at best they only know/met someone who told them about him and or his deeds (which are according to those sources not really positive).btw I am not saying that nothing happened 1400 years ago, because without history books and archaeology we can witness today that something world changing happened somewhere in the middle east some time ago.
But I am interested in the origin, the first copy and the first one(s) who got the first copy and of course the HOW. And the history books and narratations about these questions are very questionable for a lot of reasons. -
I know, amonst them the wives of some of the prophets that have a name. However there is plenty of mention with name of people who received scriptures and also of people who did not receive scriptures. Qur'an is upposed to be the contrasting scripture to check the authenticity fo othr scriptures, at least we all use it as such or purport to, so there are very legitimte questions as to why the prophet of the Qur'an should be singled out to be left without a name to name him. Because there i a prohet who received and trnasmitted the Qur'n to people, or is that also questionned? Was the Qur'an handed down to a cooperative? r depoited nonymously somewhere.
I know that we all receive the Qur'an individually in our fitr, the sign in the horizon and within ourselves. No need to go into tht we are all agreed on it. But there is this scripture which we all use, so how did it get to us?
Salaam
RED I do not agree with this. I think only Musa got maybe something like a "scripture", depends on how we want to understand the red word (7145)
BLUE I wish I knew, I have no idea.
Of course I have my own speculations, but they are just speculations like any other speculation. -
So what do you think? Do you think the man they ascribe fits the messenger of the quran?
Salam Bender,
Quran 16103
And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches him. The tongue of the one who deviates on him is foreign, and this is clear Arabic language.
My question is,
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Green - Who was the HUMAN BEING who teaches?
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Red - Who was the "him" that was taught?
peace
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