What if fasting had nothing to do with "ramadan" ?
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Peace to you all and sorry for the late answer,
@mmkhan
I agree, but the translation I gave was from Sam Gerrans, who by the way explains himself, in his book (page 117, footnote #447) why he uses "let him fast in it" rather than "let him fast it". But I am not a linguist and I am not so good in Arabic grammar, so I can't say if what he says is good or not.@Bender
The whole thing does make sense to me, I am just asking if the "common" understanding of this verse on this forum is as solid as it seems ?
To make it simple, I see two "interpretations"• God has revealed the Qur'an during a full moon of scorching heat, and therefore asks us to fast that very moon if we witness it. (How to fast that specific moon, as we don't know when exactly it happened ? And even if we did know, full moons never occur at the same date each year.)
• God has revealed the Qur'an during a full moon of scorching heat, and therefore asks us to fast every full moon we witness.
See, I am not trying to fix anything by force, it is just that the second proposition does make sense to me, but somehow, the first one does too.
The question is, which one is the good one ? -
peace Ezio,
Perhaps I can help a little
And even if we did know, full moons never occur at the same date each year.)
Does it not occurring on the same date in a made-up Gregorian calendar mean that one cannot identify which moon it was?
I haven't studied the Quranic calendar system that much, but let's say al quran was revealed during the 7th full moon of the year - is it possible to identify the 7th full moon of the year? Yes/No.
If no, then you may have a point.
If yes, then abstinence during it (or whatever) is possible.
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Peace Wakas,
I agree with the fact that, following your example, we can, indeed, identify the 7th full moon of the year, each year.
However, and even if we do not use the Gregorian or any existing calendar, we see that, if we count the number of days from the first full moon till the 7th, the count of days will not be the same each year that means that the 7th full moon of the year of the Revelation does not necessarily occur the same day (or night) than the 7th full moon of this year for instance.
Does it make sense ?
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Peace Wakas,
peace,
Yes, but Quran does not say Day X.Well, it does say that shahr ramadhan was the night of the Revelation and unless I am mistaken, the Qur'an was revealed as a book in one single night (shahr ramadhan, a.k.a. here, laylatou l-qadr) so in a way, the Reading does say "day X", more specifically, the day of the Revelation.
Now if you just read the verse 2185 without a priori, and multiple times if need be, maybe you'll understand what I understand, that the full moon mentioned in the second statement can refer to any full moon of the year
"A full moon of scorching heat was that in which the Reading was sent down, as guidance for mankind, and clear evidence of the guidance and the division So Whoever among you witnesses the full moon, let him fast in it "
Peace
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Peace everyone !
I see nobody else seems to have an opinion on this fasting thing.
Anyway, I was looking for something else when I found some ahadith about the fact of fasting 3 days in a row each month.
Keep in mind that I do not give any authority whatsoever to the ahadith corpus but only to the Qur'an, the only hadith that needs to be followed when it comes to islam. However, I consider this to be a "funny fact" pertaining to the very issue of this thread; maybe is it a "vestige" if I may say, of how fasting was truly practised at the times of the revelation...Here are the concerned ahadith (the bold parts are from me)
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Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported My friend (the Messenger of Allah) (PBUH) directed me to observe fast for three days in every month, to perform two Rak`ah (optional) Duha prayer at forenoon and to perform the Witr prayer before going to bed.
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Abud-Darda (May Allah be pleased with him) reported My friend (the Messenger of Allah) (PBUH) directed me to observe Saum (fasting) for three days in every month, to perform two Rak`ah (optional) Duha prayer at forenoon, and to perform the Witr prayer before going to bed.
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Abdullah binAmr bin Al-`As (May Allah be pleased with them) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Observing Saum (fasting) on three days of every month is equivalent to a full month's fasting.''
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Mu
adhah Al-Adawiyah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported I asked `Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her). Did the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) use to observe three days of Saum (fasting) in every month?'' She replied, "Yes.'' I asked, "On which days in the month did he observed fast?'' She replied that he did not mind on which days of the month he observed fast.
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Commentary This Hadith makes it clear that one can observe Saum on any three days of the month, and it is not necessary to fix these days. However, it is more meritorious to observe Saum on 13th, 14th and 15th of each lunar month because the Prophet (PBUH) has so ordained it. He himself also used to take special care of these dates and observe Saum on them, as is evident from the forthcoming Ahadith.
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Abu Dharr (May Allah be pleased with him) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "If you want to observe Saum on three days in a month, then fast on the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth of the (lunar) month.''
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Qatadah bin Milhan (May Allah be pleased with him) reported The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) directed us to observe Saum (fasting) on the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth of the (lunar) month.
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Ibn
Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) reported It was the practice of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) to not to omit fast onbright days' whether he was staying at a place or on a journey.
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Commentary "Beed'' is the plural of "Abyad'' which means white. Three days of 13, 14 and 15 of lunar month are called "Al-Ayyam-ul-Beed'' for the reason that their nights are bright because of the moonlight. The moon begins to diminish gradually after these days. In any case, it is evident from the Ahadith mentioned here that observance of Saum on these days is more meritorious but one can do so with benefit on other days also.
Source http//www.muslimguide.se/Prophet_Muhammad/All-Hadith/R_S/vil/hadeeth/riyad/08/chap230.htm
Again, those are ahadith, so not to be taken as God-given commands, but I don't think I need to remind you of that now, do I ? ^^
Peace
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Selam,
does anybody know for sure how many days we should fast? Should we fast whole month? or just a few days?
And what about festival of the sacrifice, is this from Quran?
And what about festival of breaking of the fast, Eid al Fitr? Is this from Quran?
I would really like to know this.
Peace
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Peace,
Selam,
does anybody know for sure how many days we should fast? Should we fast whole month? or just a few days?
I would advise you to look through the other debates and forum threads on this section, and research yourself to come up with your own conclusion. No, I doubt anyone knows "for sure", as everyone has different opinions and conclusions from their research. )
What about the festival of the sacrifice, is this from Quran?
Not sure. Haven't looked into it.
And what about festival of breaking of the fast, Eid al Fitr? Is this from Quran?
Don't believe so. I'm almost 99% sure that "Eid" isn't even mentioned by name.I would really like to know this.
Peace
peace
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Peace,
I would advise you to look through the other debates and forum threads on this section, and research yourself to come up with your own conclusion. No, I doubt anyone knows "for sure", as everyone has different opinions and conclusions from their research. )
Not sure. Haven't looked into it.
Don't believe so. I'm almost 99% sure that "Eid" isn't even mentioned by name.peace
Selam sister,
This is very difficult, i know qadr night is mentioned, i wish someone with a lot of knowledge would come and explain everything. Why Quran only Muslims do not have a scholar to ask such questions? And i am reading many posts, but i am not even sure if ramadan is this month, because some say it is in winter. And there is another tread with 252 pages, so it will take me days to read all of that.
If it is not from Quran The Festivals, where did it come from?
Peace
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Selam sister,
This is very difficult, i know qadr night is mentioned, i wish someone with a lot of knowledge would come and explain everything. Why Quran only Muslims do not have a scholar to ask such questions? And i am reading many posts, but i am not even sure if ramadan is this month, because some say it is in winter. And there is another tread with 252 pages, so it will take me days to read all of that.
If it is not from Quran The Festivals, where did it come from?
Peace
Salaam,
Wishing someone with a lot of knowledge would come along is nice, but if someone here comes and claims that they are a scholar, would you just believe anything they said, blindly? I, personally, don't want to fall into that. I would check and double check their sources of knowledge at least, if they were claiming that they possessed the absolute truth.
We don't have scholars who follow this "ideology" because (1) perhaps they haven't entertained the idea, (2) are too convinced in the authenticity of their hadith scholars and hadith science before them, and (3) it's dangerous for them to be open about it.
Where did the festivals come from? I don't know, cultural tradition? Hadith?
You don't have to read all the posts in a thread. There will always be posts of varying quality within a single thread. You can skim through and still find the information you're looking for, I'm sure. You only have to devote a little bit of time of reading or studying per day, so this doesn't have to be something that you rush through, or something that you find one answer for and then you're done. Take your time learning and don't rush yourself. It's about the journey, not the destination. ) If you are in doubt, just follow tradition. I really doubt following tradition is going to hurt you, because after all you are still upholding God's commandment to fast.
Peace. )
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Fasting is originally done to balance our body, mind helpful for the individual and society. Time and duration depends on the convenience and environment that induces to fast. Astronomical events involving the moon sun and climate helps in deciding the repeating patterns in life of our ancestors.
I do not have much idea about Arabian climate but here in India most festivals has astronomical significance like full moon day of a particular month, even monsoon(seasonal rainfall) decides the festivals which brings goodness along with it, like end of winter, end of the rainy season etc.
Environment plays a major role in life style of people, One of the way people's react to those is fasting. People too should have fasted to ward of certain insects, animals and also hidden mocrobes that forms only in certain environmental conditions or seasons. -
Salaam,
Wishing someone with a lot of knowledge would come along is nice, but if someone here comes and claims that they are a scholar, would you just believe anything they said, blindly? I, personally, don't want to fall into that. I would check and double check their sources of knowledge at least, if they were claiming that they possessed the absolute truth.
We don't have scholars who follow this "ideology" because (1) perhaps they haven't entertained the idea, (2) are too convinced in the authenticity of their hadith scholars and hadith science before them, and (3) it's dangerous for them to be open about it.
Where did the festivals come from? I don't know, cultural tradition? Hadith?
You don't have to read all the posts in a thread. There will always be posts of varying quality within a single thread. You can skim through and still find the information you're looking for, I'm sure. You only have to devote a little bit of time of reading or studying per day, so this doesn't have to be something that you rush through, or something that you find one answer for and then you're done. Take your time learning and don't rush yourself. It's about the journey, not the destination. If you are in doubt, just follow tradition. I really doubt following tradition is going to hurt you, because after all you are still upholding God's commandment to fast.
Peace.
Selam,
maybe following tradition will hurt me, that is why i want the truth. We are not allowed to pray to sun and moon. And if we have festivals that celebrate something like this, than i am not sure if this is correct. Than comes to question if the fast is for 10 days, would such a festival not be 20 days earlier?
And there are scholars who are very Quran oriented https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8&list=LLvAcGp9QKvlW5BgXjawaxwQ&index=32
Maybe you want to see his view, he is a very nice man and you can find more on youtube and google about him, I wish i could ask him questionsPeace
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Selam,
maybe following tradition will hurt me, that is why i want the truth. We are not allowed to pray to sun and moon. And if we have festivals that celebrate something like this, than i am not sure if this is correct. Than comes to question if the fast is for 10 days, would such a festival not be 20 days earlier?
And there are scholars who are very Quran oriented https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8&list=LLvAcGp9QKvlW5BgXjawaxwQ&index=32
Maybe you want to see his view, he is a very nice man and you can find more on youtube and google about him, I wish i could ask him questionsPeace
I liked the talk. You could tell the other guy was perplexed that he did not go along with the Sunni narrative and used The Quran and his intellect. People need to realize that The Quran is not about a religion. There is no clergy, there are no mindless rituals, you need to turn on your brain, and beliefs and actions go over which team you play for and what kind of jersey you wear. Also, I especially liked that he pointed out that shirk was more than polytheism, mentioning that Jews take Rabbis as partners next to God (and that verse in The Quran also mentions Christians), as an example. If only he went further and said that Muslims do the same...
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Even quran states to fast two consecutive months in two different verses and says of feed 60 needy people.. why allah then not mentioned exact days for fasting.. is it for us to decide.. even in some verses fast 3 days and 7 when you return.. by why for 2185 not? I think it is fool moon.. may allah forgive me if i am wrong.. it looks like full moon by naked eye would look for almost three days.. even the "ayyam madudath" ;D is it self three or more if my arabic is right.. imaging if we fast every full moon for three days it will end up 36 days not less than what we fast for full of ramadhan.. and it will ease definitely not tough. as allah mentions we dont need to give you hardship..
i wonder how far i am right.. but it niggles me...
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sorry to add that.. even quran says " they ask you about new moon... " but allah didnt say it help for fasting or ramadhan but only said helps for counting and for Haj.. what if for haj why not for fasting.. since it is full moon the word sha'r may be thats why allah didn't refer it helps for fasting.. i wonder you guys got my english..
