IDOL WORSHIPPING IS THE NEW ISLAM

Loulou

Loulou,

What I was saying was asking you whether it is sane to read something that goes against basic logic.

And you are wrong about multiple things in your post. The word islam does not mean submission and furthermore submitting your intelligence to something unsound would be very unwise, would it not?

As long as you speak of brains and the physical then sure you will never be prosperous.

I agree that the sectarian interpretation of Quran is simple because it comes from simpletons too.

Anyway, I suppose that you are not receptive nor interested in expanding your horizons so I will let you dwell in your little realm. I would however advise you to open your mind to what it is you put your faith in and also reflect on what I wrote. But if this is the god you prefer so go with it.

Be well
Amenuel

Islam does in fact mean submission, more accurately SURRENDER. Some people like myself are willing to surrender themselves 100% to God and his guidance, the Quran. It is from the Quran I learned of the existence of God. It is from the Quran I learned of worshipping only one God and not multiple. It is from the Quran, I learned about how this world was created and the purpose behind it. The Quran is God's true guidance for all of mankind and to God and his guidance, I surrender fully. I welcome judgment day with an open heart. God knows best how to deal with mankind since he created them.

Peace Be Upon You,

-Loulou

Loulou

Peace Lana,

Jafar is right and you missed his point.

You got this but you didn't follow the next line which is..

This part needs to understand. If you trust anyone or lets say alQuraan for guidance, it cannot guide you without Allah. But if you trust Allah for guidance it is easy for you to guide without alQuraan. As He guided Ibrahim when he said moon is my Rabb.

Without Allah nothing and with Allah everything is there what you want.
That's all

Jafar is not right. In your belief, Jafar is right. However, I believe Jafar is wrong. I believe the Quran is a true message from God, so how can I separate God from his own message? Your suggestion will not work for me.

Peace,

-Loulou

Comrox

Jafar is not right. In your belief, Jafar is right. However, I believe Jafar is wrong. I believe the Quran is a true message from God, so how can I separate God from his own message? Your suggestion will not work for me.

Peace,

-Loulou

Peace Loulou,

Of course you can separate God from His (physical) message. By opening yourself up to Him, you can receive your own message and your own guidance. You don't need a specific book to do this. Qur'an is good and I like to read it myself, but it's not the end-all of faith. "islam" existed before the Qur'an's physical compilation as it is today. Remember that.

mmkhan

What about the verse about the hajj and tawaf in the Quran .You may be correct about touching of Kaba ,even i felt that .i was doint that initially till this indecent happened the meanings that are derived here for the most important words are not correct .for example ,the word SJD was not properly explained by Wakas .so i believe ,your claim about hajj being "debate" may also have the same fate as SJD in the hands of Wakas

Peace brother,

That is OK if you find it difficult to accept what I said. But I suggest you to hold Allah firmly and be sincere to Him and to yourself, then follow whatever He guides you to, inshaAllah.

Because what I believe and understand from Allah is actually for my own self and not for others. Just sharing to see if it matches )

anyway as per the root
these are the meanings even i have cheked with Mazhar Bhai's roots

You quote says
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.

Finally disagreeing with anyone or everyone does not matter. But not following what Allah is guides us to matters a lot.
You can check my article on SJD if you are interested.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Jafar is not right. In your belief, Jafar is right. However, I believe Jafar is wrong. I believe the Quran is a true message from God, so how can I separate God from his own message? Your suggestion will not work for me.

Peace,

-Loulou

Peace,

It's OK Loulou

mmkhan

Peace Loulou,

Of course you can separate God from His (physical) message. By opening yourself up to Him, you can receive your own message and your own guidance. You don't need a specific book to do this. Qur'an is good and I like to read it myself, but it's not the end-all of faith. "islam" existed before the Qur'an's physical compilation as it is today. Remember that.

Peace Comrox,

I agree handshake

HP_TECH

Those in the video are simply disbelievers...
Every sectarian that follows tradition, ahadith, imam, sheiks or anyone (other than Allah alone) blindly is a disbeliever in the Quranic definition of disbeliever.

I would lean towards calling them hypocrites but many probably never embraced true Islam to begin with and see it as an inherited culture rather than Conscious State.

Also people (like many in this forum) that pretend to follow Quran alone and then hide behind western ideals and try to infuse neo-progressive ideals that support homosexuality, transgenderism, that deny supernatural and many apparent Signs of Allah on this earth etc... are also hypocrites.

But, everyone who does not follow what was revealed to Muhammad and submit their face to God Alone being sincere to Him in the Deen and denies the Book, the Signs, The Absoluteness and Oneness and Dominion of Allah is a polytheist/pagan

These are atheists, christians, jews, buddhists, hindus, you name it..
There is absolute logical evidence for my assertions so do not oppose me

O Loulou, are you equally disgusted by all the above idolaters or is it only Arab polytheists that tick you off enough to start a post?

"How horrible these people must have been before Quran"
What about the pagans of today?! Christians that worship the virgin Mary and Jesus and claim the atrocity about Allah? What about Masonic organizations that actually commit heinous global crimes in the name of their satanic idols? What about Jews that deny two Messengers (Isa and Muhammad) and claimed the lie about killing Isa son of Mary? What about Hindus that bow down to statues and worship them with more veneration than kissing a black stone? etc...

If you were to sum up the Western civilization system of beliefs there would be a 99% polytheist result
Mostly some denomination of Christians
Others Judaic
Others Cabalistic/Masonic
atheist
agnostic
acual devil worshippers

Do they not enrage you as much or do they have to be Arabs or Middle-easterns?

hawk99

Peace Loulou, HP_TECH, do not be distressed by the disbelievers they only expose
themselves to you, nothing more. Actually I myself find them boring because they offer
nothing useful to the discussion except disbelief.

47/30 And if We willed, We could show them to you, and you would know them by
their mark; but you will surely know them by the tone of speech (posting). And Allah
knows your deeds.

There has always been and will always be those who are astray.
Therefore ignore those who say negative things or minimize
Quran and the prophet. They have nothing to add to your growth
except that they only confirm what Allah says in his book about them.

peace

HP_TECH

Peace Loulou, HP_TECH, do not be distressed by the disbelievers they only expose
themselves to you, nothing more. Actually I myself find them boring because they offer
nothing useful to the discussion except disbelief.

47/30 And if We willed, We could show them to you, and you would know them by
their mark; but you will surely know them by the tone of speech (posting). And Allah
knows your deeds.

There has always been and will always be those who are astray.
Therefore ignore those who say negative things or minimize
Quran and the prophet. They have nothing to add to your growth
except that they only confirm what Allah says in his book about them.

peace

Peace hawk99,

I am not distressed I am making an example of Loulou's possible Arab-pagan hatred/phobia which is very akin to Islamophobia and arab phobic bigotry that is going on in the world today and that many other users on this forum are also guilty of.
There is this fear and despise for the Arabs that in light of all the other atrocities committed by other ethnic, religious, cultural groups in the world in the past and TODAY just seems ridiculous and VERY selective.
I just want to make sure she and all the rest know that they are approaching the limit of bigotry if they are not as equally enraged by all the other pagans and disbelievers including the leading pagan Western(mainly caucasian driven)culture.
That's all brother.

hawk99

Peace hawk99,

I am not distressed I am making an example of Loulou's possible Arab-pagan hatred/phobia which is very akin to Islamophobia and arab phobic bigotry that is going on in the world today and that many other users on this forum are also guilty of.
There is this fear and despise for the Arabs that in light of all the other atrocities committed by other ethnic, religious, cultural groups in the world in the past and TODAY just seems ridiculous and VERY selective.
I just want to make sure she and all the rest know that they are approaching the limit of bigotry if they are not as equally enraged by all the other pagans and disbelievers including the leading pagan Western(mainly caucasian driven)culture.
That's all brother.

I agree with you wholeheartedly

peace

Man_of_Faith

HP_TECH,

pagan

A Pagan is someone who cannot think beyond this world. It is incorrectly associated with polytheism although it is likely that a Pagan would be polytheist because of their limited thinking. Another word for Pagan but in Arabic is al-Jinn which is Semitic native. A Pagan can be a polytheist or a very worldly portraying monotheist, i.e. Allah is degraded to a primitive level by perception and belief Allah will act in primitive ways. Summary is that a Pagan is anyone who gives in to their bodily to a certain extent and not a measure of polytheist or monotheist.

Muslims usually call other religions polytheism while they themselves would call it pantheistic, i.e. they live within the divine realm but absorbed in it, and if you ask them they would still call their foundation monotheistic because all they affirm fundamentally is this Oneness, e.g. in Hinduism by Brahman. For this reason Muslims have acted zealously and dogmatically towards people with another way of thinking. Actually my pantheistic view is on bottom level Monotheistic, but you cannot seem to understand it. We have no own identity but comprise Allah although the spiritual (soul) growth determines to what extent. It is a vastly more advanced union with Allah than what you care to think.

You call everyone who is not a Muslim a Pagan while Muslims are among the worst Pagans in the world, because indulgence in the worldly is approved to a huge extent and the reward of passing the test is a Pagan's wet dream, i.e. your Jannah, which is a silly misconception on your part because the word is based on the root of Jinn and actually refers to your body. The word is a construct making it into an object whereas al-jinn would refer to the bodily as an adjective or perhaps the "clothly". Check an ancient Arabic lexicon and you shall see that the root Jiim-Nun-(Nun) refers to the covering (skin) of something and is nothing I have conjectured. Rather it is your "scholarly" friends of the past who have conjectured and making jinn into what it is not.

What about Hindus that bow down to statues and worship them with more veneration than kissing a black stone? etc...

You do not call prostration to a cubic building in the desert for Paganism? You literally revere this little building out in the nowhere. You are all Pagans, including them too obviously which I say nothing else about. And do not come with the excuse of a beacon or focal point because you do attribute the divine to an object in this world. It would be not any different than the ancient Pagans who have idols in their homes but you merely replaced them with a huge idol instead. Is the power of your deity in that building perchance?

I could ask Hindus the same as you, what kind of power do your objects have?

You wrote that some people are hypocrites but you may ask yourself how much hypocrisy it is to blame others for Paganism when you from wherever you are in the world should revere some structure in the desert. You just gathered the idols into one huge idol called Allah while the phenomenon usually called God in English is Rabb in Arabic, and this Rabb you are a part of or you do not exist at all, a predictable primate.

Even the term "believer" is dimwitted because which superior Being would care about belief. The superior Being would care about realization, about growing conscious. This is what this development ground is about, i.e. to grow as a soul within Allah. The rest are dead even if they appear to be alive, they just live to indulge and live their primitive lives and play along as if this illusion is the design of the real realm. Some of you are longing for some kind of paradise but you already have your "paradise" right here for which you are fooled that you have any part in, and with your wars including religious forced indoctrination you utterly make the world into a better place, or? Actually most just fight to improve their own worldly life, their close family and for their fabricated ideals of their idol which is just an image of their of being. Some would even murder their own family for the fabricated ideals of their idol. Now is that not deluded you think?

The Arabic word for belief which is appears quite scarcely in Quran but is primarily used in a negative connotation, i.e. it is not good to be a believer. It is confused with another word called amin which means to trust, have faith in or even the model you rely on. This is your realized reality, amin marks absolute certainty and there is no room for doubt. It is a linguistic form of the word which gives attribute from a reference. "Be Thereof Integrity" with Allah ( &#1607. If you actually read an ancient Classical Arabic lexicon and studied the word amin you would open a new world of understanding but you seem to buy what others say about the word for a cheap price.

Many people in the past have skipped translating amen just because of the difficulty in doing so, but you could translate it as one's faith in something although it means their accepted acknowledgement, their whole world image in how they behold it.

Your despised Christians actually have a decent understanding of amen for they take the prayer ending of amen as "may it be so". Make it so, i.e. realize/make it real it in that manner.

Amen implies absolute understanding about something if it is a matter of abstract knowledge.

Your other word you use to say disbeliever is also incorrect and the faith has nothing to do with belief or disbelief (just not realizing yourself) and the antonym of Mumineen is Kafar but it is obviously the right opposite of realized which is covered. The definition of covered in lexicons is absolutely correct, but it is meant metaphorically as in that your ability to realize is covered, i.e. you are deluded. And a kafar we are supposed to help, I try to help kafars every day and I do not curse them like you seem to do although I may gently throw the truth in their faces like I have done to you now. I have not been mean to you (emotional instinctive response) but I clarified that by how you use words you would go under that label too if you only knew the meaning of words. Islam is just a clerical invention and the logic also stays on that level and you cannot convince people who truly adhere to logic either which means deluded atheists will remain atheists and remain in their limited world just like you probably will if you remain the same.

Faith needs to bring answers to science, not go against science especially empirical science that can be proven through repeated testing and observed by people. If faith is not confirmed by empirical science then the staunch believer in that faith must reconsider what they believe in and not in their stupidity defend it against all logic.

One stupidity is that Islam says angels are made of fire while science proves nothing can be made of fire, even if it is "smokeless". Depending on the substance burning, the fire may be lacking visible smoke. Fire, the flame, itself is just an observable phenomenon. Actually the fire is a visible effect of an object that is disintegrating quickly due to excess heat. And the flame is heat and released particles of that material.

Jinn are made of the innate energy (noor) of this world, even heat, mysterious matter that seems to generate heat itself (your body's ability to generate heat is a sign of that). And Jinn are not any different than our very bodies that we possess in this world. The "mysterious matter" then forms all the physical objects, i.e. the molecules with their atoms. Those are just manifestations of this noor, i.e. the bodily is a manifestation (animation) of it. This energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed into something else. Our "soul seed" (nafs) is attached to this body but not native to it even if we are intentionally supposed to feel we have an identity with it, which is the imposed delusion on us in a world of contradiction (illusion). Here the one with faith knows they are to be above the bodily, in an image of their Creator.

And Nas is man's spirituality, their real soul and person detached from their false realization of who they are, which would be that of a jinn. Body and soul is a common way of speaking in English although it is more complicated than that if one searches for more intricate information.

Nafs and nas are linguistically quite close to each other but Nafs is likened by a growing seed that represents your soul at any given moment. If nas is your soul then Nafs is your person. Nas is the completed character to unfold while Nafs is the progression towards realization of this. It is a choice between nas and jinn, not harder than that, or? Apparently it is hard, most choose the bodily being fooled by the illusion imposed on them. The ability to beguile of Satan is stronger than what many people are aware of, they might think they are on the right path while they are not, misled by others.

And the imitating behavior of humans is one of those traits of Satan which leads to no good, just look at the sect of Islam for the past 1400 years based on how somebody interpreted something (Quran) expecting it to confirm what they already believed in and so certain about it that they caused it to be interpreted as according to themselves not really bothered about what they did to it. And even more astonishing is that people actually buy the interpretation even if a more deep-down study of it would identify all the linguistic inconsistencies. The Arabic people know is a very crude form of the real one with illogical claims concerning the language. The clerics of the past did their best to make it seem plausible by adding non-native diacritical markers which they added to words in order to give them a different meaning depending on their markers so they literally forced the language to conform to them. This is a cheap way of deception because you can decide and have more control over a text.

If they only could see how pathetic the traditional interpretation of Quran is...

"No one has interpreted Quran (as of 2015). Islam is not my religion".

Be well
Amenuel

Nestor

Thumbs up again Bender!

parvez_mushtaq

No they are not, they think that Allah ordered them to do that, like millions before them and with them.
Just like how you believe that your spinning around the cube and your ritual prayer is a command of Allah and I think you are not challenging Allah with that.

Dear Ben ,for both salah and tawaf ,we have proof from Quran and unanimously all the Muslim Ummah believes that .If you say ,kissing of black stone was ordained in Quran ,pl give me the proof .

I said I strongly believe, these means that I do not need to prove it

But yes I have solid evidence that I am right.

Bender evidence

If I were to judge people on their rituals (with MY rituals as criterion) than you all (whole world) are misguided.

Quranic evidence
548

2015

2281

330

I think this is enough for the moment.

I must say very beautiful evidences
let me take ayah by ayah .Insha ALLAH we will make a analysis

Verse 2.281
Sahih Intl
And fear a Day when you will be returned to Allah. Then every soul will be compensated for what it earned, and they will not be treated unjustly.

Verse 3.30
Sahih Intl
The Day every soul will find what it has done of good present and what it has done of evil, it will wish that between itself and that was a great distance. And Allah warns you of Himself, and Allah is Kind to servants."

Verse 20.15
Sahih Intl
Indeed, the Hour is coming - I almost conceal it - so that every soul may be recompensed according to that for which it strives.

All the above verses give the same message
But who will decide what is good and what it is evil .from the day one people thought that stealing is wrong .suppose if they thought the other way then stealing might had been permissible among us and thus we might have thought that stealing is not an evil .who gave the criteria for the people to decide what is good and what is evil .the answer is simply GOD
It is the fear opf GOD that make keep us away from doing evil . for example , what if i perform one rakah for fajr salah when i am alone and nobody is looking at me .but fear of ALLAH subhanavatala makes me to perform two rakas because i do it for the sake of ALLAH subhnavatala and that fear continues with me in day to day life and thus keeps me away from evil
and this what emphasized in the Ayah before 20.15
Verse 20.14
Sahih Intl
Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance.

secondly , let see the verses after Verse 3.30
Verse 3.31
Say, , "If you should love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Verse 3.32
Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

again ,it is being emphasized on rituals .note that ,the surah is Ala Imran and the context is about Jesus .here ALLAH subhanavatala is ordering those who came to dispute about the authenticity of our prophet Mohammed sallahu alasiwasallam to follow our prophet .thus making it very clear that their previous scriptures are being abrogated by this final revelations .

thirdly , In verse 2.281 ,it is in and out about human relations because the context is about lending money

finally let me take the verse 5.48
Sahih Intl
And We have revealed to you, , the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation , but to test you in what He has given you; so race to good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

let me concentrate on the phrase
................... .................

the word
as per the roots

Nun-ha-Jiim = to trace, follow (a way) or track, make chart, be clear, point out the way, be opened, broaden (road). minhaaj - well defined way (a code in secular matters), manifest, plainly defined, apparent and open road.

minhaaj n.m. 548

so every nation was given a law as well as a way and the way .the question is what is the way .is it the rituals .because your cannot find a single religion on the face of the earth which did not have a ritual .pl read my answer post to mmkhan .it is evident that almost all the religion in some way or other overlap in their rituals

so the bottom line is
salah makes us to remember our creator, ALLAH subhanvatala and that fear keeps us away from the evil

parvez_mushtaq

Peace brother,

...............................

You quote says
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.

But it also says

= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.

Finally disagreeing with anyone or everyone does not matter. But not following what Allah is guides us to matters a lot.

I don't how you came to the conclusion tawaf was/is a misguidance

You can check my article on SJD if you are interested.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

I here to increase my knowledge ,Bro
pl tell me where i could find your viewpoint on SJD

mmkhan

But it also says

= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.

Peace bro,

By keeping this in mind, please let me know the meaning of tawaaf.

I don't how you came to the conclusion tawaf was/is a misguidance
I here to increase my knowledge ,Bro
pl tell me where i could find your viewpoint on SJD

Please click here to check my article on SJD.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Zulf

People tend to see form instead of essence. This is our weakness, and it seems spontaneous.

For example

Faith healing works. But it works in all religions AND even in non-religious contexts. The religion member would explain away this by claiming that the reports of faith healing in other religions are things like lies or tricks from Satan.

People don't realize that there is an essence, a reality beneath, above and beyond the simplistic, limiting and artificial divides of releigions and creed.

Even atheists can do faith healing, if they believe (know) in it. Religion doesn't shape reality. Reality is there no matter what we say, think or believe.

Either we sense and know reality (to different extents), or we are blind to it.

Debates between different religions is so pathetic. It'd be better if we just opted out of religion (=blind faith), and into reality (which also contains faith healing, Rabb, unseen worlds...).

You don't have to be religious to be in touch with the unseen things of our reality.

There is only one scale... and that is between knowing/seeing and blindness/ignorance.

When we witness faith healing, we should see it for what it is and what happened (the essence) and forget the form (what was the context).

How does a Muslims explain that Christians who pray to Jesus for healing get healed? How do Christians explain faith healing carried out in non-religious contexts? Impossible? But it happens. Everyone think only 'their' group is on track with truth. Miracles happen in all sorts of contexts and creeds, but never is it accepted by the outsiders.

Forget form, focus instead on essence.

Peace

Jafar

People tend to see form instead of essence. This is our weakness, and it seems spontaneous.

Agree and I like to add

People tend to judge others based on certain criteria..
And they always forget to apply the same criteria to themselves or their own group.

Here we have an example of a group of people who judge those who are outside of their group as Idolator
While they also perform their own Idolatry themselves.. in different form..

The next question is What drove this kind of behaviour?

Perhaps it's rooted in our gene, due to centuries of evolution.
Human always compete, either with their own group or other predator..
And strive to become 'better' or 'the best' in comparison to other group.

Zooming to this 'labelling others as idolator' habits..
This attitude was perhaps rooted from Israelites...

The Israelites see that their kingdom(s) is not 'the best' compared to their neighbor.. (Sumerian, Asyrian, Hittites, Egyptian, Persian etc..) They don't have the strongest military, impressive buildings, richest wealth, largest grain stock...

And they need to seek something to 'seek them apart' from their far more 'successful' neighbors..
They choose their 'belief of God' (and only one God) as the 'thing to be proud of' and the 'thing which set them apart from their neighbor' thus it evolves into the doctrine of "God's chosen people"..

We are the enlightened one while others are idolaters, they're idolizing dumb statue, holy buildings, holy man made objects.. They're stupid, we are smart, they're ignorant, we're enlightened..
There's only one God and our God is the True God.. while other's God(s) are false gods..
And we have the one and only holy book authored by God, while others doesn't..

parvez_mushtaq

Peace bro,

By keeping this in mind, please let me know the meaning of tawaaf.

(tta-waw-fa)

= Tay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass,
"the men/people/locusts filled the land like the TWF/flood/deluge", overpowering/overwhelming rain/water that covers,
a servant that serves one with gentleness and carefulness,
a detached/distinct part/portion, a piece or bit, a party/division/sect,
a sort of raisins of which the bunches are composed of closely-compacted berries, a garment in which one goes round or circuits, a place of going round or round about.

tafa vb. (1) impf. act. 5224, 5544, 5617, 7619
impf. pass. 3745, 4371, 7615
pcple. act. 2125, 2226

ta'ifah n.f. 369, 372, 3122, 3154, 3154, 481, 4102, 4102, 4113, 6156, 787, 787, 87, 966, 966, 983, 9122, 242, 284, 3313, 499, 6114, 6114, 7320

tawwaf n.m. 2458

tufan n.m. 7133, 2914

tatawwafa vb. (5) impf. act. 2158, 2229

so ,obviously in verses 2.125,22.26 and 22.29 it means to go round the

Please click here to check my article on SJD.

i read it , pl give me a couple of days InshaALLAH i will come up with my answer .

parvez_mushtaq