:: Sajda is not prostration ::
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Salaam again,
I did some research, since I got curious after my last post, and read information about the Kabah. I discovered that the Kabah was rebuilt 1627 due to rainwater causing the walls to collapse, it is not illogical that this natural phenomenon could cause it and the old structure was probably vulnerable. The probability that it happened more times over the thousands of years is high.
A remnant wall piece from the old Mosque is still present at the site. And did you know the kabah was not a cubic building?
The Kabah today is probably just a tiny bit of what it once was. And I doubt it was covered in black. It feels the form and black fabric is just to make it an item to worship, it feels like a statue, does it not remind you of pagan worship?
The Kabah today gives me a slight psychedelic feeling to be honest.
I am almost absolutely certain the location is the correct one and I even think Moses came there. I think it was the zamzam well that he came to. Now it is my theory, and I do not claim this, it is only in my philosophies. I also think the mountain Moses went to is somewhat north of Mecca.
I apologize sincerely to those who may have been offended by my words, but this feels like the Truth to me. I feel it has become an item of worship, this cube. It is not a building, it is an object of worship. I do not ridicule anyone for praying toward the Kabah, I do so myself, even if the old sacred Mosque is something else these days. But I certainly want to seek the Truth about the Kabah and I am open to other rational ideas and explanations too.
Someone said that there was a verse telling Moses people to turn their houses into Qiblahs? The word Qiblah seems to mean a house of prayer rather than a direction for prayer. I felt that Qiblah means a building with some special feature or features. I still think what makes a Qiblah.
The Bible talks about altars, do you think this item is just a piece of paganism or does it have to do with God's religion? Did it have any other use than for sacrifices? Could it be an item of worship which helps you focus on God or is it just a man-made invention?
Anyone thought about the verse which talks about dressing nice and be clean for the Masjid? I wonder why it says to eat and drink moderately in the same verse. I had that crazy thought that this word does not mean the same thing as it is thought to mean (Masjid). Was a really crazy and controversial thought, I know, but could not help it since it felt so incoherent with Masjid and eat and drink moderately in the same verse. Otherwise I suppose I simply cannot understand God and He knows better. Or does anyone have a rational explanation to this?
I say like Jewish Dude,
Just some crazy thoughts. ..
God bless you
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peace MofF, all,
A telling analysis of "qiblah" was done here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlchange of qiblah - an understanding based on Quran
The information we can extract about the meaning of "qiblah", and the change, from these verses is as follows
this new change is in some way related to guiding to a straight/establishing path, and making the believers a balanced/moderate community
the qiblah which they were on was a great test (i.e. difficult), except those God guided, and their belief in such was not going to be for nothing
in this case the qiblah happens to be AMAH, but there are potentially many other qiblah, as individuals could have their own qiblah
in 2148 the usage of "wherever" is the ONLY time it appears without a close link to "turn+wajh+AMAH" therefore likens "wijhatun (direction/course/goal)" with "qiblah" and consequently likens AMAH to "race to the good" or at least we can say AMAH involves this. Furthermore, AQ implies each person may have their own "qiblah" in 2145 then later in 2148 says "for each is a wijhatun he turns towards it", strongly suggesting "qiblah" and "wijhatun" are being related as similar terms/concepts. Please re-read these verses as this is a key finding.
the effects of this change will be less debate from the people, lead to God completing His favour, aid guiding, and bringing you all together.
wherever one is they should turn their wajh/purpose/consideration in the direction of AMAH, and from the contexts that likley involves being oriented towards the truth of your Lord, the good, and uniting of believers
To me, "turning one's wajh in the sky" in 2144 comes across as an idiom, so whilst it could be literally translated as "turning one's face IN the sky" it is implying one is directionless, aimless, floating/blowing in the wind, i.e. no plan/goal to progress, looking/searching for a way/resolution. Interestingly it is listed in 'Verbal Idioms of Quran' by Mustansir Mir but explained as he turned his face towards the heaven so often that it is added emphasis to say his face was IN the heaven, even though it literally is not. Perhaps, but that does not change the fact that it is taken by all to mean he was seeking guidance. The new qiblah resolves this, and is also pleasing, implying a possible easing of argumentation/hostility for the believers, which would tie in with "no debate against you".
As a side note, the only other use of "wly/turn" in these verses other than "turn+wajh" is 2148 "...he turns towards it (wijhatun/course/goal)", which is primarily figurative and not taken physical-directional by anyone. This may help indicate the type of turning being referred to in these verses.Based on the above, usage of the root QBL in AQ, CAD meanings, and the only other occurrence of "qiblah" in 1087, in terms of likelihood for the meaning of "qiblah", in my view, are
- focal-point - focus/centre of interest or activity
- direction - general aim or purpose; a general way in which someone/something is developing
- point-of-approach - a way in which to approaching something
- counteraction - to oppose and mitigate the effects of by contrary action
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Salaam again,
I did some research, since I got curious after my last post, and read information about the Kabah. I discovered that the Kabah was rebuilt 1627 due to rainwater causing the walls to collapse, it is not illogical that this natural phenomenon could cause it and the old structure was probably vulnerable. The probability that it happened more times over the thousands of years is high.
A remnant wall piece from the old Mosque is still present at the site. And did you know the kabah was not a cubic building?
The Kabah today is probably just a tiny bit of what it once was. And I doubt it was covered in black. It feels the form and black fabric is just to make it an item to worship, it feels like a statue, does it not remind you of pagan worship?
The Kabah today gives me a slight psychedelic feeling to be honest.
I am almost absolutely certain the location is the correct one and I even think Moses came there. I think it was the zamzam well that he came to. Now it is my theory, and I do not claim this, it is only in my philosophies. I also think the mountain Moses went to is somewhat north of Mecca.
I apologize sincerely to those who may have been offended by my words, but this feels like the Truth to me. I feel it has become an item of worship, this cube. It is not a building, it is an object of worship. I do not ridicule anyone for praying toward the Kabah, I do so myself, even if the old sacred Mosque is something else these days. But I certainly want to seek the Truth about the Kabah and I am open to other rational ideas and explanations too.
Someone said that there was a verse telling Moses people to turn their houses into Qiblahs? The word Qiblah seems to mean a house of prayer rather than a direction for prayer. I felt that Qiblah means a building with some special feature or features. I still think what makes a Qiblah.
The Bible talks about altars, do you think this item is just a piece of paganism or does it have to do with God's religion? Did it have any other use than for sacrifices? Could it be an item of worship which helps you focus on God or is it just a man-made invention?
Anyone thought about the verse which talks about dressing nice and be clean for the Masjid? I wonder why it says to eat and drink moderately in the same verse. I had that crazy thought that this word does not mean the same thing as it is thought to mean (Masjid). Was a really crazy and controversial thought, I know, but could not help it since it felt so incoherent with Masjid and eat and drink moderately in the same verse. Otherwise I suppose I simply cannot understand God and He knows better. Or does anyone have a rational explanation to this?
I say like Jewish Dude,
Just some crazy thoughts. ..
God bless you
The Quran says both the Jews and Christians have their own Qibla and neither will follow each other's Qibla. Early Christian and Jews use to pray towards the East and some Christians still do.
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Salaam brother Bigmo,
Thanks for your input, although I am still not certain about the word Qiblah. It seems not to mean direction, but being a sort of structure. Of course I may be wrong, my Arabic is not really perfect, I was using a bit of own philosophical thinking and the work of other knowledgeable people on the forum.
Of course, with this reasoning, the Kabah can still be a Qiblah and thus a direction, if you pray towards it.
Furthermore, I have thought that these ancient structures function as beacons, since there must be a reason to kneel/prostrate towards something.
That is why it feels wrong to prostrate to a psychedelic black cube, which was not always a cube either. Later generations turned it into what it is.
I feel like it is a big idol, a big thing comparable with a statue.
In lack of a better comprehension, I still pray in this direction, but I am not 100 % comfortable with it. My intention is certainly not to worship the Kabah. The site still seems to be sacred despite this. I am not as quick drawing conclusions that Mecca is not a sacred place as many others.
God bless you
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Salaam brother Bigmo,
Thanks for your input, although I am still not certain about the word Qiblah. It seems not to mean direction, but being a sort of structure. Of course I may be wrong, my Arabic is not really perfect, I was using a bit of own philosophical thinking and the work of other knowledgeable people on the forum.
Of course, with this reasoning, the Kabah can still be a Qiblah and thus a direction, if you pray towards it.
Furthermore, I have thought that these ancient structures function as beacons, since there must be a reason to kneel/prostrate towards something.
That is why it feels wrong to prostrate to a psychedelic black cube, which was not always a cube either. Later generations turned it into what it is.
I feel like it is a big idol, a big thing comparable with a statue.
In lack of a better comprehension, I still pray in this direction, but I am not 100 % comfortable with it. My intention is certainly not to worship the Kabah. The site still seems to be sacred despite this. I am not as quick drawing conclusions that Mecca is not a sacred place as many others.
God bless you
We talked about this before. This whole Ka'ba being an idol and worshiping it stuff. First you have to define what an idol is and what is worshiping something. The Quran specifically says that the Jews and Christians have their own Qibla and would not follow eah other's Qibla. However it also reminds us that prayer direction is not going to deterind your faith. Its just a ritual to make community worship easier. A way to make people feel part of a sommunity. All rituals have a purpose, they are not the purpose itself.
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Salam Man of Faith
Salaam again,
I did some research, since I got curious after my last post, and read information about the Kabah. I discovered that the Kabah was rebuilt 1627 due to rainwater causing the walls to collapse, it is not illogical that this natural phenomenon could cause it and the old structure was probably vulnerable. The probability that it happened more times over the thousands of years is high.
A remnant wall piece from the old Mosque is still present at the site. And did you know the kabah was not a cubic building?
The Kabah today is probably just a tiny bit of what it once was. And I doubt it was covered in black. It feels the form and black fabric is just to make it an item to worship, it feels like a statue, does it not remind you of pagan worship?
The Kabah today gives me a slight psychedelic feeling to be honest.
I am almost absolutely certain the location is the correct one and I even think Moses came there. I think it was the zamzam well that he came to. Now it is my theory, and I do not claim this, it is only in my philosophies. I also think the mountain Moses went to is somewhat north of Mecca.
I apologize sincerely to those who may have been offended by my words, but this feels like the Truth to me. I feel it has become an item of worship, this cube. It is not a building, it is an object of worship. I do not ridicule anyone for praying toward the Kabah, I do so myself, even if the old sacred Mosque is something else these days. But I certainly want to seek the Truth about the Kabah and I am open to other rational ideas and explanations too.
I feel the same- it is a strong feeling and all the words from Bigmo can't turn my feelings off--- i like the idea to pray together towards one direction- as to concentrate on ONE place= one God... But i have really a problem with the Cube.
Someone said that there was a verse telling Moses people to turn their houses into Qiblahs? The word Qiblah seems to mean a house of prayer rather than a direction for prayer. I felt that Qiblah means a building with some special feature or features. I still think what makes a Qiblah.
The Bible talks about altars, do you think this item is just a piece of paganism or does it have to do with God's religion? Did it have any other use than for sacrifices? Could it be an item of worship which helps you focus on God or is it just a man-made invention?
And the Quran tells us, that slaughter on altars is forbidden and false worship. I think also the hole sacrifice-thing it is an invention- the best 'sacrifice' is to live as a believer and do good- or to slaughter to feed the hungry, nothing else.
Anyone thought about the verse which talks about dressing nice and be clean for the Masjid? I wonder why it says to eat and drink moderately in the same verse. I had that crazy thought that this word does not mean the same thing as it is thought to mean (Masjid). Was a really crazy and controversial thought, I know, but could not help it since it felt so incoherent with Masjid and eat and drink moderately in the same verse. Otherwise I suppose I simply cannot understand God and He knows better. Or does anyone have a rational explanation to this?
i read also an interpretation that 'masjid' means the place for sujud, i.e our mind- (it was in the tafsir from Asad) But when i was young we visited a synagoge and there i feel so happy, because it was really amazing downstairs the men up the women and all children and it was not quite all the people laughing, speaking, eating and drinking; the women brought cakes and food and shared it with others. What i think the real 'masjid' was also a place for eating and drinking and learning- a common place for 'worship' and learn and talk. So the verse who speaks about to not come near the women in the masjids becomes more clear the purpose of the mosque changed until today- the absolut silence and no children etc. is invented also.
,Just some crazy thoughts. ..
God bless you
God bless you too.
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Salaam,
You are probably right sister, the Masjid is probably misunderstood to be a place solely for prayers. Although, I have visited older Iranian mosques and they usually have a kitchen and quite some spaces for social gatherings. Some mosques are warmer than others, but unfortunately they do the salams to Muhammad and his family 50 times an hour during gatherings, so I have to put my hands to my ears and hurry out.
I am sometimes offered something to eat and drink while I go to certain mosques here. A minority of mosques keep open the whole day, but these are the better ones. You can go there in peace and sit and meditate in the silence. I see people, like you said, talk and laugh in these places. So you helped me see clearly when it comes to that verse. I probably knew the answer already, some silly rhetorical question without intention.
Sadly, to be houses of God, it is sad that Iranians close their mosques right after the prayer, so you cannot go to God's house whenever you like, except some few mosques that unfortunately are not where I live. And since I observe an afternoon prayer (asr), it is annoying the mosques are closed. Only namazkhane (prayer rooms) are open and they are not always available.
Most religious people here are quite nice despite their fixation with Muhammad and his family. I enjoy socializing with most.
God bless them, that they may some day tone down on their Muhammad fixation.
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Salaam,
What means Sajda?
InshaAllah we will try to see how it is defined in alQuraan with the permission of our Lord, Allah.Note Please click on aayaat numbers to see other translations.
Understanding Sajda.
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Sajda for Adam.
234
234 And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.The command was given for Malaaika to Sajda for Adam not prostrate before Adam as it clearly said LiAdam and Li means for. All of them accepted except Iblees and he was not among who does Sajda.
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May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanWalaikum sallam ,Khan
can you explain me the underline part
how "li" is "for" here -
Salaam brother,
"Li" in Arabic is always "for".
How will you translate otherwise?Ok how will you translate "Li" here ,Khan
..... ....Verse 234 -
Salaam brother,
"Li" in Arabic is always "for".
How will you translate otherwise?Ok how will you translate "Li" here ,Khan
..... ....Verse 234As you cannot use "for" for"li" here you even cannot use "for" instead of "to" in case of angel's sujud to ADAM alaisalam
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Peace,
Yes it is "to" not "for".
Thanks for the correction.Thanks ,it means angles were prostrating to Adam alaisalam they were not prostrating for Adam alaisalam
Salaam,
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230
230 And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."Malaaika were given authority on earth before humans and their position was replaced with humans by Allah. The word explains it all, which means to take over one's position. Malaaika asked their Lord "will you give authority on earth to those who causes corruption therein and sheds blood"? Allah replied "Indeed, I know that which you do not know". And Malaaika was asked to do Sajda for Adam and all accepted except Iblees.
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May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanI don't know how you have concluded that malaaika were given authority on the earth before us
If it is so
then
As per this verse
Surah 17 Aya 95
Say "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger."Says earth is not a safe place form them
So ,iblees did not want to prostrate (sajda = the picture we get in our mind) TO Adam alaisalam because he thought his creation was inferior .so it is nothing about "authority" .
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Does it mean angels have limbs and foreheads to do prostration?
Hohohoho. Funny how much one must hear. Angels are ethereal, lacking a physical body. That is the reward for passing out of this world and joining the realm of Rabb/God.
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as far my understanding angels are forces that are controlling the laws of nature , and their sajda is to serve lord and the laws of nature or their duties the way God want from them..
eveythhing is doing sajda but their sajda towards God is their submission, the submission of sun is to give heat and light to mankind, every single day every single second, he cannot refuse to provide us heat and light untill it the term it is appointed for,
same with water. air, food, grass, plants.
its human who sometimes change the course of real motif by causing trouble in planet. which we have no right off. we been given a power of decision and more likely the power of destruction.
but again there is another side of human.. he is sensitive... which make him close to the God
angles was also unable to understand at first place , God why are you making such creation which will shed blood on earth ? God told them i know what you dnt know...
one apparent side and one hidden side..
our submission towwards our lord is key
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I don't know how you have concluded that malaaika were given authority on the earth before us
Peace brother,
If you read 230 carefully inshaAllah you will get the same conclusion.
If it is so
then
As per this verse
Surah 17 Aya 95
Say "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger."Yes this aayat supports my understanding. If malaaika were on the earth we should certainly have sent down on them malak as a messenger from the heaven.
Why do you think the words "walking in peace and security" is added into this aayat? What relation it has with the other part of this aayat? If humans are not in peace and security on earth, Allah will stop sending messengers? Just think about it.
Says earth is not a safe place form them
Sorry bro I disagree.
So ,iblees did not want to prostrate (sajda = the picture we get in our mind) TO Adam alaisalam because he thought his creation was inferior .so it is nothing about "authority" .
You said earth was not the place of peace for malaika SO iblees did not want to prostrate? I did not understand the relation between these two sentences of yours. Could you clarify it. Thanks.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Peace brother,
If you read 230 carefully inshaAllah you will get the same conclusion.
Lets see the verse
Verse 2.30Sahih Intl
And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."I don't see any thing about the transfer of authority from angles .rather ,if i club with the verses like below
Verse 50.36
And how many a generation before them did We destroy who were greater than them in power and had explored throughout the lands. Is there any place of escape?i conclude ,after with the existing proofs ,it is about The dinosaurs of the Jurassic period.moreover ,IMHO ,whenever these verses are mentioned, ALLAH subhanvatala mention about the "signs" and "travel through the land"
So there is nothing about the angelic authority
Yes this aayat supports my understanding. If malaaika were on the earth we should certainly have sent down on them malak as a messenger from the heaven.
Why do you think the words "walking in peace and security" is added into this aayat? What relation it has with the other part of this aayat? If humans are not in peace and security on earth, Allah will stop sending messengers? Just think about it.
let me quote the ayah once again
Surah 17 Aya 95
Say "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger."It is really confusing ,can you make bit clear how you came to the conclusion that this ayahs supports your reasoning .instead this ayah goes in direct contradictory to your reasoning .it says earth is not the place for the angels .can you give any proofs of your translation
You said earth was not the place of peace for malaika SO iblees did not want to prostrate? I did not understand the relation between these two sentences of yours. Could you clarify it. Thanks.
My point is there was no such change in authority among angels and humans because earth is not the place for angles .It was your claim that iblees did not accepted this authority change in your OP
Salaam,
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Why Iblees did not accept the authority given to humans on earth? As we saw above in 234, means He refused and he was proud. And when he was asked by Allah, what makes you not among those who do Sajda, when I have commanded you and . He gave his reasons- I cannot accept the one You created out of clay from an altered black mud.
- I am better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay.
And he don't want to accept the honored given to Adam = not done Sajda.
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May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Does it mean angels have limbs and foreheads to do prostration?
Hohohoho. Funny how much one must hear. Angels are ethereal, lacking a physical body. That is the reward for passing out of this world and joining the realm of Rabb/God.
rotfl your post is more funnier ,MOF
did you ever got the message from your late ancestors that they have became angles
i mean ,did any of your late ancestors came to you and said "well Mr.MOF , i am such and such of your ancestors ,i am dead and now i am an angel.soon you will became one and join me "
