Fasting according to Quran
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peace,
When you say "at sunset" I am assuming you mean after the sun has set, i.e. it is below the horizon.
If so, what makes you think that is different to when night starts?
Peace,
When I say sunset, I mean the sun being below the horizon; however, my understanding is that this period isn't classified as "night" because at this point a twilight phase starts,what we also call "dusk". Only after dusk the night occurs.
Sunset Sun below the horizon (objects still visible)
dusk period comprised of {civil,nautical and astronomical twilight}
Night Fully darkIn my opinion, the difference between sunset and night is that at night the refraction of the sun is non-existant
http//micklehamweather.com/sunpositionlegend.png -
What is the black thread? And what is the white thread?
How do you define this? Please elaborate on this.
May my Lord increase my knowledge.
Peace,
I think the black thread refers to the night and the white thread refers to the light of the sun refracting on earth's atmosphere.
If I was to take that verse literally, I would stop fasting at the beginning of dawn (at astronomical twilight),when the refraction of the sun starts affecting the darkness of the night, creating two shades, black and white.
The following pics, for me, are a definition of what the verse meanshttp//www.icoproject.org/fajr1.jpg
http//farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2758587214_9feb8ec9ee.jpg
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peace NFM,
That is not my understanding of Quran, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608453.msg389009#msg389009If I understand this correctly, you're understanding of the word layl/night it's to do with the angle of the sun rather than the light of the sun persisting on earth's atmosphere?
So, layl/night for you is the sun being below the horizon? -
Salamu Alyaykum all and Ramadan Kareem,
For me a white thread and a black thread must become distinguishable to begin the fast. I have done this in my local area of Northern California and I have found it is about exactly an hour before sunrise where I live. Literally, hold up a white thread and a black thread at night, they are indistinguishable, as the sun comes up, slowly they will be made distinguishable. I suggest you try this in your own area where you live.
As for the ending of the fast, I also wait a bit of time after the sun has set. I normally pray Maghrib, and prepare some fruit juice or a snack, by then it is at least 20 minutes past sunset, and no longer light out, though their may still be some red in the distant sky. This is also the conclusion of the Shia'a on this issue, just for our information.
May Allah guide us to improving our deen.
Salaam and Ramadan Kareem!
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I agree with your understanding of the times of fasting NFM. Meaning I too walk out to my patio about an hour before sunrise and make out the white thread from the black thread in the distant horizon.
Although I must say at times because of low atmospheric pressure conditions i.e. fog, cloud systems I cannot make out the white thread from black thread.
What do you do in such condition?
I agree with Cruz estimation of time of dawn it is also almost exactly an hour before sunrise for me as well. I live in Southern California.
I'll ask Cruz as well what do you do if it's foggy or cloudy?I tend to wait until 30 minutes prior to sunrise when the region of the firmament directly above lightens in color and I notice night time dissipating.
That method never fails but the hour prior to sunrise works depending on atmospheric conditions impeding visibility.I also have understood night to mean when light is no longer visible in the sky/horizon.
Not the sun simply going below horizon.
I understand the decline of the sun or sunset twilight period to signify late afternoon/evening not night.Cruz, 30 minutes after sunset in SoCal, light is still visible for me. Is it not the same uptown?
I usually have to wait an hour or so before the sky is completely dark..PS NFM Great Camera Shots Man! Nice yes
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Salamu Alaykum all,
Cool to hear from you this Ramadan HP, hope you are in good health. I didn't know we lived in the same state! I go to Southern California at times to visit my grandparents that live in Chula Vista, we should meet up next time I come through. It might be towards the end of summer, I hope to take a trip down there with my wife. Let me know if you are interested and we can exchange contact info.
Anyway, as far as your fasting questions are concerned HP, I will try to give a brief explanation for each one.
- What do you do when the weather does not permit a clear view of the sun/horizon/darkness?
"They ask you, , about the new moons. Say, "They are measurements of time for the people and for Hajj." 2189
I understand this to mean that we can use celestial bodies and their mathematically determined positions to inform us about the correct timings. Thus, I use our modern mathematical predictions and satellite evidence to confirm the correct timings, even when the sun, or moon, is not visible due to weather.
- Is light still visible 30 minutes after sunset in Northern California?
Certainly there is always some light in the sky, especially when there is a bright moon, as such this can be difficult to determine each night. That is why I usually wait until at least the red has gone from the sky and we have passed civil twilight. That tends to be about 30 minutes after sunset here where I live.
Night 1200 AM - 338 AM
Astro. Twilight 338 AM ? 429 AM
Nautical Twilight 429 AM ? 511 AM
Civil Twilight 511 AM ? 545 AM
Daylight 545 AM ? 851 PM
Civil Twilight 851 PM ? 925 PM
Nautical Twilight 925 PM ? 1007 PM
Astro. Twilight 1007 PM ?1058 PM
Night 1058 PM - 1159 PMhttp//www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/usa/eureka
Salaam.
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Thank you for the great replies guys.
HP_TECH
I have reason to believe that in harsh condition, being able to see the white thread from the black thread shouldn't be much difficult.
What I understand from that verse, is that the light from the sun has to start taking over the darkness.For example, let's say it's very cloudy, all you'll need to see to know if is time to stop fasting is when a cloudy section of the atmosphere becomes lighter than anther cloudy section of the atmosphere( suggesting that the light from the sun has starting impacting on the darkness of the night), I believe you're using a similar method.
I could be wrong on this but I'll check it out my self as I live in the UK and we get a lot of cloudy weather all over the year.My main concern is the opening fast now; I have always been of the opinion that it was during evening/sunset/maghrib; however, the verse uses the word night and to me (and if I was to ask any non-muslim person) that means when is fully dark.
This, of course, raises another issue that you have mentioned as well( I wanted to come to this later on), that of the sky never being dark as a result of some countries being at high latitude.
The word evening could have been used in the Quran or a similar verse to the sunrise could have been used (white thread from the black thread..) but that's not the case, the word night has been used and i'm confused as to why now.
BTW as much as I'd like to take credit for the pics, these were taken from google D
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What is the black thread? And what is the white thread?
How do you define this? Please elaborate on this.
May my Lord increase my knowledge.
Salaam Grandopolis,
That is a good question. Based on the fact that this abstinence was prescribed for others before the Quran was revealed, we could take a look at other Abrahamic religions. Interestingly, the ancient Jews wore a special prayer shawl called 'tallit' which had tassels hanging off the four corners called 'tzitzit'. They used a thread called 'tekhelet' which was dark blue in colour to run through the shawl. They used the thread as a way to tell when the light was changing by being able to tell the difference between the two colours.
http//www.judaism-islam.com/the-jewish-prayer-shawl-and-arabic-keffiyeh/
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Janet.
