Fasting in North Pole

clashncruz

Salamu Alaykum and Ramadan Kareem!

It seems many of you are missing a key aspect of the verse 2184 on how to fast.

"...And upon those who are able - a ransom of feeding a poor person ...) 2184

So clearly if you are in the North Pole, you will not fast an entire 30 days with no eating or drinking; this is simply a ridiculous statement, and you would die. Instead, you will feed 30 poor people. Very simple answer folks.

Salaam,

Clash.

imrankhawaja

Salamu Alaykum and Ramadan Kareem!

It seems many of you are missing a key aspect of the verse 2184 on how to fast.

"...And upon those who are able - a ransom of feeding a poor person ...) 2184

So clearly if you are in the North Pole, you will not fast an entire 30 days with no eating or drinking; this is simply a ridiculous statement, and you would die. Instead, you will feed 30 poor people. Very simple answer folks.

Salaam,

Clash.

lol this answer was very simple already from the start,,,

the issue here is the people who want to do fast by their own happiness. what rules they must follow..

I m not fasting I changed my thinking after researching on it this year and last year I did not fast but I pay ransom with the grace of God..

but if I wanted to do fast and I m living near poles even in uk Scotland got fast like 22 hours according to traditional mode of timings .. so that's the question ..and issue... folks lol

peace and God bless you

truthseeker11

Peace Zulf,

This is what we are dealing with. Nature doesn't fit with scriptural instructions.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but so far, nobody has been able to solve it, except by referring to tradition, which clashes with the quran, which means it is just turning a blind eye to the issue. I've never seen any real solution, or even an explanation as to how I am engaged in faulty reasoning. Most people (Muslims) don't live in such areas, and those who do simply follow a version of timings from their ancestral lands. Therefore it is not taken as a real issue.

I raised this issue a while ago on another thread and no one was able to provide a solution at that time as well. As you can also see, highly intelligent and extremely learned posters have tried and still haven't been able to come up with an explanation for the area north of Arctic Circle for both sawm and salat (what does morning and evening clearly indicate even when sun is not mentioned?).

One plausible hypothesis for this could be as follows

The original text of al-quran was completely of divine origin and did not have this discrepancy and all astronomical possibilities were addressed, since the Infinite Creator has full and complete knowledge of the creation. The hypothesis is that this discrepancy was a result of addition to or deletion from the original message. Sanaa manuscripts are unequivocal and indisputable archeological evidence of tampering with the divine message which makes this scenario possible. No wonder the authorities allowed only 40 folios to be studied in detail and when evidence of this tampering started to surface, they put the remaining thousands of parchments under lock and key and refused any further access to them. Go figure. Question is, what are they trying to hide?

Someone might jump in and start quoting 159, 4142, and 8522.

My answer is as follows

Logical fallacy of circular reasoning or begging the question.
Those verses are applicable to the original text of al-quran which is still preserved somewhere on this Earth and in lawh mahfouz (the akashic library).

I am eagerly awaiting the discovery of that original text of al-quran to prove/disprove my hypothesis.

PS I am also in the process of studying the 6000 year old Sumerian clay tablets cuneiform inscriptions, which predate the Torah, with some mind boggling and mind blowing discoveries so far. I might never be the same again.

Peace

imrankhawaja

its very simple ,, and logical infact...

the rotation of earth decides the time of morning and evening.. not the sunlight... either way round sun does not set at all... its the observation of observer who notice the sun is not visible on horizon so its mean the rotation of earth is at a stage where sunlight is not approaching..

in extreme polar countries like scandavia where there is a time in year when rotation of earth is at an angle that sun is still visible on horizon but earth is continously rotating and the the evening time and morning time is same like a dim view compared to sunrise and sunset in normal areas.

so accordingly salat observer can understand when sun is touching to horizon from east side even its visibile its morning or sunrise or the rotation/timing of earth specific for fajar prayer. whereas when the touching of sun to western horizon will determine the night prayer even sun is visible..not visible your time started ..

now come to the normal areas same phenomena apply but due to geographical location the timing and views of setting and rising is always different...

salat isssue can be handle like that whereas about fast, its simply exempt as the catagory of scandavia is something we can say that we are traveller or we feel difficulty so there are options for complete count on other days or pay a ransom...

like every math question have level of difficulty the points of science and rotation are always play important role to understand where does we need to apply proper science..

we are living in earth ,, so the rotation of earth is subject but misunderstood we are ,we think sun is boss due to sun we need to deciide day and night light and dark , morning and evenng. sunrise sunset... infact sun is always there its earth that revolves and bring day and night light and dark , sunrise and sunset (for observer) so action should be taking while considering earth instead of sun..

so i think question is very nice what you ask but you are asking answer by taking sun as a subject whereas we should need to consider earth as a subject which is our homing place...

peace...
thats my understanding it can be wrong,

truthseeker11

Peace Imran,

so accordingly salat observer can understand when sun is touching to horizon from east end its even its visibile its morning or sunrise or the rotation of earth specific for fajar prayer. whereas when the touching of sun to western horizon will determine the night prayer even sun is visible..

Perhaps my phrasing was not clear.

What is the classical Arabic dictionary meaning of al-fajr and al-3isha?
What is the meaning of al-fajr and al-3isha as per quranic usage?
How would you apply the quranic meanings when there is full month of darkness with no sun?

You are in Longyearbyen, Svalbard, Norway at 78 degrees latitude. You have been living there all your life. You are healthy and able to fast without any difficulty. You witnessed the (full or new) moon to start fasting (whatever your interpretation is). How would you determine when your fast will start in morning? When will you end your fast?

How would you establish salat in Longyearbyen, Svalbard, Norway in January of next year?

Peace

Zulf

Peace Imran,

Perhaps my phrasing was not clear.

What is the classical Arabic dictionary meaning of al-fajr and al-3isha?
What is the meaning of al-fajr and al-3isha as per quranic usage?
How would you apply the quranic meanings when there is full month of darkness with no sun?

You are in Longyearbyen, Svalbard, Norway at 78 degrees latitude. You have been living there all your life. You are healthy and able to fast without any difficulty. You witnessed the (full or new) moon to start fasting (whatever your interpretation is). How would you determine when your fast will start in morning? When will you end your fast?

How would you establish salat in Longyearbyen, Svalbard, Norway in January of next year?

Peace

Exactly. Well composed post.

Zulf

now come to the normal areas same phenomena apply but due to geographical location the timing and views of setting and rising is always different...

normal ???

the rotation of earth decides the time of morning and evening.. not the sunlight... either way round sun does not set at all... its the observation of observer who notice the sun is not visible on horizon so its mean the rotation of earth is at a stage where sunlight is not approaching..

we are living in earth ,, so the rotation of earth is subject but misunderstood we are ,we think sun is boss due to sun we need to deciide day and night light and dark , morning and evenng. sunrise sunset... infact sun is always there its earth that revolves and bring day and night light and dark , sunrise and sunset (for observer) so action should be taking while considering earth instead of sun..

so i think question is very nice what you ask but you are asking answer by taking sun as a subject whereas we should need to consider earth as a subject which is our homing place...

This is not the issue at all.
All we are talking about is how we see things from Earth. I'm not sure what you mean by "taking sun as subject". We are only discussing how we perceive the light of the sun, here at Earth. That's it.

The Quran tells us (at least in it's trad. interpretation) to start fasting when then white thread is distinguishable from the black thread. What if this never happens? What to do when there is no black thread at all?

The start point of the eating period is there, while the end point is not. What to do? Why refrain from fasting just because of the light of the sky? Doesn't seem reasonable. I understand exceptions like being ill, but I don't understand why we should not fast because the sky doesn't switch from "black" to "white". So sky light is more important than fasting???

Please not the actual issue here. The light of the sky as observed from Earth vs instructions of the Quran.

I'd love to admit being wrong, but if so, someone please show me how.

Peace

hawk99

Peace,

Fasting is for our physical and spiritual development and purification. The starting
and finishing times are guidelines and are secondary . If we were to expand our thinking to
salat we could come up with situations where the standing, bowing and prostrating
would need to be altered in order to do the physical and spiritual development as well.
For instance, what if something was wrong with one's leg which prevent them from
standing, or the knees which prevented them from prostrating, should they then abandon salat.

police

Zulf

Peace,
Fasting is for our physical and spiritual development and purification. The starting
and finishing times are guidelines and are secondary . If we were to expand our thinking to
salat we could come up with situations where the standing, bowing and prostrating
would need to be altered in order to do the physical and spiritual development as well.
For instance, what if something was wrong with one's leg which prevent them from
standing, or the knees which prevented them from prostrating, should they then abandon salat.

police

a. It's an assumption that there is a fixed system of standing, bowing and prostrating that can be altered, or that 'standing', 'bowing' and 'prostrating' at all means the physical postures/motions.
b. It is not stated in the Quran that Salat needs complete 'standing, bowing and prostrating'. It is however stated clearly that we should eat and drink until the white thread become distinguishable from the black thread.
It's not the same type of issue. Problem with our body/mind is not the same as problem with nature/Quran.
What other instruction of the Quran can we bend and alter with the view that they are secondary anyway?

I also agree that purpose must be the prime thing, and I'm against empty form, but I reiterate that the issue we are dealing with here is our understanding of the quranic instructions. The issue is our understanding. If our understanding is not wrong, then the text is flawed, and I don't think so.

hawk99

a. It's an assumption that there is a fixed system of standing, bowing and prostrating that can be altered, or that 'standing', 'bowing' and 'prostrating' at all means the physical postures/motions.

Standing, bowing and prostrating are straight forward unless
mental gymnastics concur otherwise.

b. It is however stated clearly that we should eat and drink until the white thread become distinguishable from the black thread.

True, but it does not say at which location that
"the white thread become distinguishable from the black thread" hmm

It's not the same type of issue. Problem with our body/mind is not the same as problem with nature/Quran.

I disagree, sometimes we must use our brains yes If we want to make salat
and have physical difficulties or would like to fast we but the location presents
problems we must think within the bounds of Islam.

I also agree that purpose must be the prime thing, and I'm against empty form,
but I reiterate that the issue we are dealing with here is our understanding of the quranic instructions.

Allah has not forbidden us to fast with other regions yes problem solved

O0

Timotheus

we do remember the quran was not revealed to people in the north pole right?

Comrox

we do remember the quran was not revealed to people in the north pole right?

Of course, but if you're asking that it becomes the question if the Qur'an is supposed to be for all mankind or not.

Man_of_Faith

Of course, but if you're asking that it becomes the question if the Qur'an is supposed to be for all mankind or not.

And Quran is a manifestation to all.

People cannot have normal lives with full night of sleeping during summer in Sweden. One must go up praying at maybe 2-3 am at worst and then having gone to bed after 10pm. The timings are not working in that part of the world based on the sun.

And according to me it would be obvious one rises from sleep after having performed a morning prayer in order to focus on what they just prayed. But that perhaps does not matter for those who mumble the same words day in and day out.

Be well
Amenuel

Comrox

And Quran is a manifestation to all.

People cannot have normal lives with full night of sleeping during summer in Sweden. One must go up praying at maybe 2-3 am at worst and then having gone to bed after 10pm. The timings are not working in that part of the world based on the sun.

And according to me it would be obvious one rises from sleep after having performed a morning prayer in order to focus on what they just prayed. But that perhaps does not matter for those who mumble the same words day in and day out.

Be well
Amenuel

I guess it would depend on the person, but yes it is a concern if we're addressing a physical ritualistic prayer.

Some people are able to get back to sleep relatively easily, even if they have woken enough to have clear thought for a few minutes. Others, however, have much difficulty getting back to sleep.

And then of course you have people who do or would prefer to stay up until the morning prayer before sleeping for the first time.

It's something to ponder about for sure. I'm not sure how many Muslims do it.

Man_of_Faith

Interrupted sleep is not good when you interrupt sleep cycles. It is very likely if you use an alarm very early in the morning without sufficient sleep so far. It does not really help to go to bed again because you will not easily reenter the same stage. This is why people who are awakened once or more times during the night report to have slept worse.

It would be wisest to plan sleep in order to go up at the time of prayer and start the new day. That way it gives the prayer more meaning too as you can reflect upon what you uttered in prayer.

Be well
Amenuel

imrankhawaja

peace guys, happy eid to all of you sorry i was busy with my family .. anyway..

Peace Imran,

Perhaps my phrasing was not clear.

What is the classical Arabic dictionary meaning of al-fajr and al-3isha?
What is the meaning of al-fajr and al-3isha as per quranic usage?
How would you apply the quranic meanings when there is full month of darkness with no sun?

You are in Longyearbyen, Svalbard, Norway at 78 degrees latitude. You have been living there all your life. You are healthy and able to fast without any difficulty. You witnessed the (full or new) moon to start fasting (whatever your interpretation is). How would you determine when your fast will start in morning? When will you end your fast?

How would you establish salat in Longyearbyen, Svalbard, Norway in January of next year?

Peace

well now i understand actually what you want to ask,,

my brother i m not sure the information which i m giving you will help you or not but i think its a good start including me who are dealing with this issue inshallah lets talk about it with other members we will discuss it in detail

infact. the history of scandavia. we will discuss later first we need to understand the time of revelation is about 632 ad somewhere the new faith system started what people call new religion which infact was not, it was the correction of old and a law in book preserved for all the nations that have to come after it.. so at that time if we think the law followers of the book was not in scandavia its true becoz not even the law followers at that time there is no evidence of any human colnisation was found in anypart of scandavia..

the first set of civilisation just a little bit was found near about 9 th century ad and after 1300 ad the christanity and cathlosim crumbled and till date there is no any direct involment in the gov issues by any new law follower in scandavia..

anyway its the issue of timeless book when we think like that , however at that time there is no colony of scandavia for any nation but some muslims now a days still living there how can they perform and did God was not aware about it...

now its the question of philosphy or something if we make colony in moon the day lasting fourteen days on some part of moon.. how we will perform rituals,,

according to philosphy rituals have different views from different people some say its physical some say innerside that matters ,both have their evidences..

its not a easy cup of tea this subject of scandavia need to sort out properly with respect to all the historical and logical analysis as welll as scientific knowledge what we have today regarding the poling system of sunrise and sunset..

peace

Bender

imho if the quran is not universal then it's worthless

edit not totally worthless of course

Zulf

the first set of civilisation just a little bit was found near about 9 th century ad and after 1300 ad the christanity and cathlosim crumbled and till date there is no any direct involment in the gov issues by any new law follower in scandavia..

Could you clarify this please... perhaps with a reference.
Thanks.

Zulf

we do remember the quran was not revealed to people in the north pole right?

Agreed.

There is no "people of the North pole" anyway. And not on the moon either. But,

To whom was it revealed then, if not to everyone on Earth?

How do we define this group to whom it was revealed?
Is it to a certain people in time, or only certain people of a geographic region, or only to those who have the same climate, or only to beduins, or only to arabic speaking people, or only those at similar latitude regardless of longitudinal location???

To whom was it revealed? What defines the group to whom it was revealed?
Perhaps it was only to the tribe of the messenger? In that case we should scrap it immediately as it then is both outdated and non-applicable to 99.999% of Earth's population.

O0

Zulf

Standing, bowing and prostrating are straight forward unless
mental gymnastics concur otherwise.

Yes, that's one interpretation.

True, but it does not say at which location that
"the white thread become distinguishable from the black thread" hmm

So you are basically saying that the Quran is not applicable to all Earth?

Why then follow other instructions, if some instruction are applicable only at certain times.? Note, we are not talking about typical exceptions. We are talking about nature, which is highly regular.

I disagree, sometimes we must use our brains yes If we want to make salat
and have physical difficulties or would like to fast we but the location presents
problems we must think within the bounds of Islam.

How does the amount of light on the sky create problems to fast?? Is light of the sky a critical factor of fasting?? What's the crucial connection/relationship between light and fasting that makes amount of light decide go or no-go for fasting??
"Within the bounds of Islam"?? What Islam are we talking about? I thought Islam was defined by the Quran/Furqan. Is the Quran supposed to be interpreted in the light of Islam? What shapes Islam then? Bukhari?

Allah has not forbidden us to fast with other regions yes problem solved

Not relevant. Problem not solved. Religion fails and problem gets ignored.
We may fast as much as we want during the year. You may fast 3 months if you wish. No prohibition.

If we are unable to solve a math equation, we cannot just take a rubber and erase some numbers or operators to make the difficulty go away. hmm