THE REFORMIST CASE
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Peace Timotheus,
Peace
Yes, i was, and am quite concerned with people who not only sell quran translations without the actual quranic text aswell at least, and those who instead add their own footnotes etc.
we cannot perfectly re-create the quran in another language. because we are not able. its perfect because god revealed it. we cannot even produce one surah like it, as god tells us in the quran
You mean you don't like translators who choose to not have side by side English translation with the Arabic text?
Personally I prefer to just see the English. People who are reading the Qur'an for the first time might want to only see it in their own language.
If the translator is not trying to manipulate the Qur'anic text with information from external sources, I don't see the problem with quality footnotes. Like anything else, they may harm or benefit the reader's experience, but it's up to the reader to separate the good from the bad.
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Salam,
I would like to reply to this post since I am associated with the work "Reformist Translation".
The enlightenment of Muslims came through the opening of their minds and the courage to ask and question every aspect of their new religion as well as their world and their history. That Muslims have transgressed into ignorant barbarians who are possibly a few notches below the ignorance of their ancestors who were pagans in Mecca is a direct result of their inability to question, debate, discuss, or tolerate.
The Reformist Translation uses at its core "The Message" which is the translation available on this site. The work is different in that it expands the translation of the text and provides a commentary which speaks of the verses in some detail.
As for the 19 aspect. That there are patterns in the Quran involving various numerical structures is somewhat old news. The Muslims themselves celebrated this pattern in various speeches and booklets (Ahmed Deedat?), so that this becomes a negative at this stage is a bit of a paradox.
As for the other nonsense on the thread - no comment.
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Peace.
I also would like to say the following1- Translating Qoran in any language is a "hot potato" to most, especially those whose minds are made up.
2- Qoran, as GOD says is "Kitabun Markoom" i.e Numerically composed book!.
3-According to those who claim"GOD protects Qoran", which mushaf was revealed to the prophet, since they differ even if slightly? What proof do they have?
4-Since Qoran says GOD will keep sending messengers, those who follow their parents heritage and their own egos will never believe in any new messenger . Their mind is made up and their final messenger will never change from the one their parents believed in. Their new messenger will never come.
5-They pick and choose, ignoring clear instructions from GOD in Qoran that Qoran contains a proof,a reminder. It is for all generations. GOD said wait for the proof, He is also waiting. Now the proof is here. Wake up!!!!
6- They will have a last word,always,an excuse always, but the fact remains we now have a solid proof that Qoran was authored by GOD Alone and was locked mathematically for this technology/Scientific generation to check it out!!!.
Yes, of course everyone is entitled to their view,but Qoran has spoken clearly and loudly that it cannot be man made. It is authored by the Lord of the universe.
Glory be to GOD Alone.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Evidence for this translation (part in bold)?
no evidence infact,, just guess and wishes
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Peace Wakas.
My evidence of course. Please refer to 1- Any translation is a "hot potato" for some. Never the less here is my evidence"Kitabun Markoom, yash haduhu Almukarraboon". Yes I witnessed it by checking it. GO ahead brother and check how GOD has locked His words mathematically. GOD calls it "Dhikr" i.e a reminder.
4414142
No falsehood could enter it, in the past or in the future;* a revelation from a Most Wise, PraiseworthyYes brother ,locked mathematically. Protected for all generations.
But of course ,it might not be your evidence.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
peace GL,
I am not talking about whether Quran has a mathematical code or not, I'm simply asking what evidence you have for translating the word "Markoom" the way you did, e.g. Quranic usage of the word evidence, classical arabic dictionary evidence etc.
So far, I'm assuming you just made it up.
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I agree with Wakas. There is no lexical source to backup the claim concerning the word.
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Peace Wakas.
What does "Raqm" mean root "RQM" Does it mean "number" as well?
That is my understanding according to many basic Arabic dictionaries/lexicons...etc.
Then "Markoom" for me means "numbered".
But you can give your take on it since you disagree with me?.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
GL,
You are the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you.This is an example reply I'd expect from a straightforward person
The root of the word is RQM and it means number, please see classical arabic dictionary (cad) XYZ, page XYZ
The form of the word means XYZ
I take this specific derivative to then mean "numbered". I have / haven't got a CAD reference for this, e.g. XYZ. -
t me the root is ot inconvenient but the context in both mention of kitab marqum is the problem. The context does not seem to fit, but the word raqiim en 18.9 seems to offer mor possibilities.
I would also ask, if we take r-q-m to meen writing or inscribe or the like,what then is the difference between that adn k-t-b or s-j-l
Salaam
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KTB does not mean book or writing in my world. There are also other lexical definitions concerning the word whereof two are record or decree. I take it as the "know-how" to something, even knowledge (not as knowing as in alem for which I interpret as "teach" or get/make to know)).
Raqam seems interesting for the candidate of a true word for book, although the root only occurs very seldom in Quran. "Stripe" or "brand" are alternative definitions. Although if you take a look at a related root Ra-Qaf-Qaf you find hints there too. Combining the two it seems the word means "scroll" also looking at Ra-Qaf-Ya (to rise, ascend gradually as you when you roll out a scroll get it out gradually). None of these roots are used much at all in Quran except at a few occurrences.
ZayBuRa (zabur) is another candidate although the word drowning in definitions.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Wakas.
I am giving my view. I am saying "raqm" can also mean number.
For example " Alddar raqm thalata" i.e the house number 3.You know Arabic roots can have many meanings according to contexts.
So according to my analysis/checking/pondering/study ... the best meaning of "Kitabun marqoom" is "numbered/mathematically composed/marked by numbers...I am not suggesting that you or others take it as a fact /proof... you are entitled to do your own research /analysis study.
I suggest you give your alternative and readers can take what makes the better sense to them.
When I give a view and clarify it is my understanding and give examples,my reasons..., I consider it to be my proof until I am given a better/clearer proof that corrects my recent understanding.
Of course readers can agree or disagree.
My burden of proof s on me is for me. Others can take it or leave it.
Everyone s burden of proof is on them for themselves.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Of course everything that exists can be expressed into number. Music is also expressable ito numbers, so it shoould be no shocking ew that a book could be composed presenting a recognizable number pattern. It is the sinthetic nature of human and animal intelligence that makes a short job through that coming out with a synthesized outcome.
S in those two ayas where it says kitab mrqum I understand that it is the record of a particular creature, not the Qur'an.Salaam
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Peace
Yes, i was, and am quite concerned with people who not only sell quran translations without the actual quranic text aswell at least, and those who instead add their own footnotes etc.
we cannot perfectly re-create the quran in another language. because we are not able. its perfect because god revealed it. we cannot even produce one surah like it, as god tells us in the quran
Yeah ur right, that's how it probably went wrong with translations of the Bible. I also do not like to mis the original text above the translation.
I actually do not read any translations anymore with footnotes etc. it's like i am reading their version and interpretation of the Quran instead the original clean one. To be honest, the Free-Minds translation is the most used translation, that i use. No footnotes, no things between quotes or brackets etc., at least they tried to translate it.
But it's important to learn Arabic, because i do not know if every single word is translated correctly. I know how to read, speak, write basic Arabic. Now i need to learn grammar and words, my first grammar-rule that i learned was the Ism, in English they call it a noun.
