:: Sajda is not prostration ::

Man_of_Faith

Does it mean angels have limbs and foreheads to do prostration?

Hohohoho. Funny how much one must hear. Angels are ethereal, lacking a physical body. That is the reward for passing out of this world and joining the realm of Rabb/God.

imrankhawaja

as far my understanding angels are forces that are controlling the laws of nature , and their sajda is to serve lord and the laws of nature or their duties the way God want from them..

eveythhing is doing sajda but their sajda towards God is their submission, the submission of sun is to give heat and light to mankind, every single day every single second, he cannot refuse to provide us heat and light untill it the term it is appointed for,

same with water. air, food, grass, plants.

its human who sometimes change the course of real motif by causing trouble in planet. which we have no right off. we been given a power of decision and more likely the power of destruction.

but again there is another side of human.. he is sensitive... which make him close to the God

angles was also unable to understand at first place , God why are you making such creation which will shed blood on earth ? God told them i know what you dnt know...

one apparent side and one hidden side..

our submission towwards our lord is key

mmkhan

I don't know how you have concluded that malaaika were given authority on the earth before us

Peace brother,

If you read 230 carefully inshaAllah you will get the same conclusion.

If it is so
then
As per this verse
Surah 17 Aya 95
Say "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger."

Yes this aayat supports my understanding. If malaaika were on the earth we should certainly have sent down on them malak as a messenger from the heaven.

Why do you think the words "walking in peace and security" is added into this aayat? What relation it has with the other part of this aayat? If humans are not in peace and security on earth, Allah will stop sending messengers? Just think about it.

Says earth is not a safe place form them

Sorry bro I disagree.

So ,iblees did not want to prostrate (sajda = the picture we get in our mind) TO Adam alaisalam because he thought his creation was inferior .so it is nothing about "authority" .

You said earth was not the place of peace for malaika SO iblees did not want to prostrate? I did not understand the relation between these two sentences of yours. Could you clarify it. Thanks.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

parvez_mushtaq

Peace brother,

If you read 230 carefully inshaAllah you will get the same conclusion.

Lets see the verse
Verse 2.30

Sahih Intl
And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

I don't see any thing about the transfer of authority from angles .rather ,if i club with the verses like below
Verse 50.36
And how many a generation before them did We destroy who were greater than them in power and had explored throughout the lands. Is there any place of escape?

i conclude ,after with the existing proofs ,it is about The dinosaurs of the Jurassic period.moreover ,IMHO ,whenever these verses are mentioned, ALLAH subhanvatala mention about the "signs" and "travel through the land"

So there is nothing about the angelic authority

Yes this aayat supports my understanding. If malaaika were on the earth we should certainly have sent down on them malak as a messenger from the heaven.

Why do you think the words "walking in peace and security" is added into this aayat? What relation it has with the other part of this aayat? If humans are not in peace and security on earth, Allah will stop sending messengers? Just think about it.

let me quote the ayah once again
Surah 17 Aya 95
Say "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger."

It is really confusing ,can you make bit clear how you came to the conclusion that this ayahs supports your reasoning .instead this ayah goes in direct contradictory to your reasoning .it says earth is not the place for the angels .can you give any proofs of your translation

You said earth was not the place of peace for malaika SO iblees did not want to prostrate? I did not understand the relation between these two sentences of yours. Could you clarify it. Thanks.

My point is there was no such change in authority among angels and humans because earth is not the place for angles .It was your claim that iblees did not accepted this authority change in your OP

Salaam,

.......................
Why Iblees did not accept the authority given to humans on earth? As we saw above in 234, means He refused and he was proud. And when he was asked by Allah, what makes you not among those who do Sajda, when I have commanded you and . He gave his reasons

I cannot accept the one You created out of clay from an altered black mud.
I am better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay.

And he don't want to accept the honored given to Adam = not done Sajda.

.............................

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

parvez_mushtaq

Does it mean angels have limbs and foreheads to do prostration?

Hohohoho. Funny how much one must hear. Angels are ethereal, lacking a physical body. That is the reward for passing out of this world and joining the realm of Rabb/God.

rotfl your post is more funnier ,MOF
did you ever got the message from your late ancestors that they have became angles
i mean ,did any of your late ancestors came to you and said "well Mr.MOF , i am such and such of your ancestors ,i am dead and now i am an angel.soon you will became one and join me "

Man_of_Faith

I find it funnier with angels with limbs and foreheads to be honest. Mine is attached to the reality while the other is someone's fantasies and lack of knowledge. Minds that become ripe are released from the world and they are in control (angels) and they are ethereal, bodiless. No limbs, no foreheads, no bodies, no wings...

Be well
Amenuel

Novice

I find it funnier with angels with limbs and foreheads to be honest. Mine is attached to the reality while the other is someone's fantasies and lack of knowledge.

I did not claim that angels have limbs and forehead. It was a question that if angels were asked to do a physical prostration then do they have limbs or foreheads.

It was not funny but a serious question to one who believes that angels did physical prostration. I think you did not notice the question mark at the end of my sentence.

parvez_mushtaq

I find it funnier with angels with limbs and foreheads to be honest. Mine is attached to the reality while the other is someone's fantasies and lack of knowledge. Minds that become ripe are released from the world and they are in control (angels) and they are ethereal, bodiless. No limbs, no foreheads, no bodies, no wings...

Be well
Amenuel

I did not claim that angels have limbs and forehead. It was a question that if angels were asked to do a physical prostration then do they have limbs or foreheads.

It was not funny but a serious question to one who believes that angels did physical prostration. I think you did not notice the question mark at the end of my sentence.

I dont agree with your definition of angels ,MOF
how can we say anything about which we don't have knowledge .Quran says they have wings apart from that we dont have any description of angels .So any conclusion about angels will end up in imagination .
Verse 35.01
praise is to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

Quran is being addressed to humans and for humans sajda means the physical prostration .I dont want to imagine the prostration of angels which will lead me to erroneous conclusions because i dont have the knowledge of angels .If ALLAH subhanvatala says all angels prostrated before Adam alaisalam then they prostrated .if you ask me "how" they prostrated then I dont want to answer this "how" because ALLAH subhanvatala didn't gave the answer to this "how". Only ALLAH subahnavtala knew the answer for this "how" .

imrankhawaja

the wings of angels are not the wings like bird or aeroplane. it must be something which we have no understanding , by eyes or by mind thats why they are hidden from sight ...

Novice

I dont agree with your definition of angels ,MOF
how can we say anything about which we don't have knowledge .Quran says they have wings apart from that we dont have any description of angels .So any conclusion about angels will end up in imagination .
Verse 35.01
praise is to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

So as per 1588 Prophet had wings too. No wonder traditional translations are as under

(

Look not with your eyes ambitiously at what We have bestowed on certain classes of them (the disbelievers), nor grieve over them. And lower your wings for the believers (be courteous to the fellow-believers). (8 Dr Mohsin

Strain not thine eyes (wistfully) at what We have bestowed on certain classes of them, nor grieve over them but lower thy wing (in gentleness) to the Believers. (8 Yousaf Ali

So Parvez do you also think that Prophet had wings?

parvez_mushtaq

the wings of angels are not the wings like bird or aeroplane. it must be something which we have no understanding , by eyes or by mind thats why they are hidden from sight ...

Of course you are correct ,Imran

parvez_mushtaq

@Khan

The only proof that you gave in your article is
Verse 230
230 And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

From this verse you have derived that Sajda = To accept the authority/position/honor given by Allah to whom He wills.
This verse does not support your claim .you claimed that since there was a transfer of authority from angels .all the angels accepted this authority change except eblees

In remaining all other verses in your article you have just substituted your derived formula .They are not the proofs

Since there was no such authority transfer so there is no question of giving honor to Adam alaisalam rather ALLAH subahanatala commanded all the angels TO make sujood TO Adam alaisalam .here it is evident that the sujood that ALLAH subhanatala referring is the physical prostration of humans because Quran is being addressed to humans .

Man_of_Faith

Imran,

Or... they have no wings at all but it is someone's mistaken understanding.

In 230 (before I found the real interpretation), I interpreted the sujud as that the angels paid homage to Adam, not necessarily physically prostrating. Sujud implies that you do something submissive to someone such as being respectful. It also implies obedience by submission to authority, but usually connoting that you are the opposite of cocky.

Its morphological meaning (for those who accept my knowledge) is something like "give out from the spirit" kind of implying that you share of yourself for some purpose, e.g. you let someone else have their way.

Be well
Amenuel

imrankhawaja

Imran,

Or... they have no wings at all but it is someone's mistaken understanding.

yeh you can say that, becoz the thing we understand as wing is a tool that makes you fly...

and obviously for things we see and observe need wings to fly may be angels dnt need wings at all for fly , actually we have no exact understanding about their nature , we human always understand what is apparent to us,

In 230 (before I found the real interpretation), I interpreted the sujud as that the angels paid homage to Adam, not necessarily physically prostrating. Sujud implies that you do something submissive to someone such as being respectful. It also implies obedience by submission to authority, but usually connoting that you are the opposite of cocky.

may be the mechansim of universe from the rising and setting of sun, the growth of fruits vegetable, water cycle , gravity, attraction, laws of nature all are some of the sujood of angels to nature and now these things are under the caretaking of human beings , thats why the duty assigned to them at first they object but as soon they realsie the outer garment of human is although not worthy but the real human is much more different than outer garment(flesh) so thats why angels said to rabb , you know what we dnt know and we are willingly ready to serve humanity by your order.

thats why water , fruits stars, sun moon, grass, metals, everything is under the care taking of human... a hidden side of these things are in the controlling of angels and all beings are connected to rabb..

so creation is not seperate from rab, its a circle of illusion in which we all are in,, bt our lord is high above whatever we can imagine,, becoz rab is not illusion rabb is the only reality of everything .. every creature, every energy...

peace

mmkhan

@Khan

The only proof that you gave in your article is
Verse 230
230 And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

From this verse you have derived that Sajda = To accept the authority/position/honor given by Allah to whom He wills.
This verse does not support your claim .you claimed that since there was a transfer of authority from angels .all the angels accepted this authority change except eblees

In remaining all other verses in your article you have just substituted your derived formula .They are not the proofs

Since there was no such authority transfer so there is no question of giving honor to Adam alaisalam rather ALLAH subahanatala commanded all the angels TO make sujood TO Adam alaisalam .here it is evident that the sujood that ALLAH subhanatala referring is the physical prostration of humans because Quran is being addressed to humans .

Peace Parvez,

Brother before reaching the conclusion please do answer some of my questions below

1- Why Allah said to malaaika that he is going to make in earth the khalifa? Was is necessary to inform them?
2- What means khalifa? Please share your understanding of this Arabic word.
3- Why did malaaika say "...and we declare Your praise and sanctify You...". Were they reminding Allah? Or comparing with humans?

All questions taken from 230 only.

Thanks and awaiting your reply.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

parvez_mushtaq

Peace Parvez,

......

1- Why Allah said to malaaika that he is going to make in earth the khalifa? Was is necessary to inform them?

Firstly , we and malaaika were/are not the only creation of ALLAH Subhanavatala.your question is correct ,why ALLAH Subhanavtala should choose malaaika to witness about the creation of human.
The answer is very simple .ALLAH subanhanavatal knew everything ,from beginning to end .By informing malaaika he was also laying the carpet for eblees .eblees as well as all the malaaika witnessed the creation of Adam alaisalam otherwise ,eblees will never claim himself to be superior than Adam alaisalam .this fact is further proved by this verse
Verse 7.16
Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

2- What means khalifa? Please share your understanding of this Arabic word.

I will take the simplest meaning ,the meaning which you are also comfortable .in your words "The word explains it all, which means to take over one's position"

3- Why did malaaika say "...and we declare Your praise and sanctify You...". Were they reminding Allah? Or comparing with humans?

So the meaning of The word = to take over one's position .it is obvious ,in the history of the world , we (The humans) are not the first .if we write a book about the history of the world and each page representing a billion years then our history will occupy only a few pages .i mean one or two pages .
everywhere on the earth there is a proof of habitations of amazing creatures .science makes it very clear that those creatures never had a peaceful living .thus it proves that there was lot of blood shed upon the earth much before our creation . Malaaika knew about this blood shed because they were witnessing this blood shed .

mmkhan

Firstly , we and malaaika were/are not the only creation of ALLAH Subhanavatala.your question is correct ,why ALLAH Subhanavtala should choose malaaika to witness about the creation of human.
The answer is very simple .ALLAH subanhanavatal knew everything ,from beginning to end .By informing malaaika he was also laying the carpet for eblees .eblees as well as all the malaaika witnessed the creation of Adam alaisalam otherwise ,eblees will never claim himself to be superior than Adam alaisalam .this fact is further proved by this verse
Verse 7.16
Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

Peace brother,

Thanks for your answers.

So, you think that to make iblis in error Allah made all this drama.
That also means Allah want iblis to be in error?

I will take the simplest meaning ,the meaning which you are also comfortable .in your words "The word explains it all, which means to take over one's position"

Whose position was taken over and given to Adam then?

So the meaning of The word = to take over one's position .it is obvious ,in the history of the world , we (The humans) are not the first .if we write a book about the history of the world and each page representing a billion years then our history will occupy only a few pages .i mean one or two pages .

So you mean Allah was informing malaaika about our creation? Or Adam?

everywhere on the earth there is a proof of habitations of amazing creatures .science makes it very clear that those creatures never had a peaceful living .thus it proves that there was lot of blood shed upon the earth much before our creation . Malaaika knew about this blood shed because they were witnessing this blood shed .

Red You are against 230
Or do you meant by saying "before our creation" is referring to you and me and not Adam!

Please clarify.

parvez_mushtaq

Peace brother,

Thanks for your answers.

So, you think that to make iblis in error Allah made all this drama.
That also means Allah want iblis to be in error?

......
.......
So you mean Allah was informing malaaika about our creation? Or Adam?
...
.......

I don't know why you are so much surprised .his dramas are going on everywhere even our life is a drama and the lone narrator of all dramas is ALLAH subhanavatal

lets follow the steps of that episode
1.ALLAH subhanvatala annoced about his creation to the malaaika
2.He made them witness the creation of Adam Alaisalam
3.All the maalika realized that his creation of Adam is subordinate to them
4.then ALLAH subhanavtala commanded all the malaaika to make sujood to his subordinate creation which was the actual test for malaaika
5.and eblis failed

BTW ,it was not my conclusion ,i have already quoted the verse 7.17

dont your remember the verse 3.54
And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

Moreover the good ,bad or ugly everything is from ALLAH subhanavatala
Verse 4.78
Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All are from Allah." So what is with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?

Whose position was taken over and given to Adam then?

Who knows and who cares .i am here ,you are here and humans were there on this earth .i don't want to bother about the past kulafa of this earth because ALLAH subhanavatala did not gave those deteils in his book but however he has informed us about them

Verse 50.36
And how many a generation before them did We destroy who were greater than them in power and had explored throughout the lands. Is there any place of escape?

Verse 36.31
Have they not considered how many generations We destroyed before them - that they to them will not return?
Verse 36.32
And indeed, all of them will yet be brought present before Us.

Verse 81.55
And when the wild beasts are gathered

Do you want any more proofs ,Khan
BTW , can you give me a single physical proof which you can correlate with quranic verse for your claim.just give one physical proof that angels were on this earth before us and correlate with Quranic verse as i have done .

Red You are against 230
Or do you meant by saying "before our creation" is referring to you and me and not Adam!

Please clarify.

how i went against the Verse 2.30,khan

Once again i will repeat my previous quote

..................................
So the meaning of The word = to take over one's position .it is obvious ,in the history of the world , we (The humans) are not the first .if we write a book about the history of the world and each page representing a billion years then our history will occupy only a few pages .i mean one or two pages .
everywhere on the earth there is a proof of habitations of amazing creatures .science makes it very clear that those creatures never had a peaceful living .thus it proves that there was lot of blood shed upon the earth much before our creation . Malaaika knew about this blood shed because they were witnessing this blood shed .

i think you missed out this sentence .Further , i was referring about the things before Adam alaisalam

parvez_mushtaq

@khan
I am waiting for your replay , khan

mmkhan

I don't know why you are so much surprised .his dramas are going on everywhere even our life is a drama and the lone narrator of all dramas is ALLAH subhanavatal

lets follow the steps of that episode
1.ALLAH subhanvatala annoced about his creation to the malaaika
2.He made them witness the creation of Adam Alaisalam
3.All the maalika realized that his creation of Adam is subordinate to them
4.then ALLAH subhanavtala commanded all the malaaika to make sujood to his subordinate creation which was the actual test for malaaika
5.and eblis failed

BTW ,it was not my conclusion ,i have already quoted the verse 7.17

dont your remember the verse 3.54
And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

Moreover the good ,bad or ugly everything is from ALLAH subhanavatala
Verse 4.78
Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All are from Allah." So what is with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?

Peace brother,

Better I will keep my mouth shut on this -X &

Who knows and who cares .i am here ,you are here and humans were there on this earth .i don't want to bother about the past kulafa of this earth because ALLAH subhanavatala did not gave those deteils in his book but however he has informed us about them

Then what is the purpose to inform us about this?

Verse 50.36
And how many a generation before them did We destroy who were greater than them in power and had explored throughout the lands. Is there any place of escape?

Verse 36.31
Have they not considered how many generations We destroyed before them - that they to them will not return?
Verse 36.32
And indeed, all of them will yet be brought present before Us.

Verse 81.55
And when the wild beasts are gathered

Do you want any more proofs ,Khan

I don't see any prove in the aayaat quoted. Sorry bro.

BTW , can you give me a single physical proof which you can correlate with quranic verse for your claim.just give one physical proof that angels were on this earth before us and correlate with Quranic verse as i have done .how i went against the Verse 2.30,khan

Once again i will repeat my previous quote i think you missed out this sentence .Further , i was referring about the things before Adam alaisalam

Already given bro but you fail to see it. And I cannot make you see but only Allah.
Seek His help, that's all I can say.