alcohol
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That's why Quran mentions the fact that in alcohol there is some benefit...
Not to mention that wine is also mentioned prominently in the Torah and Gospels, often positively. Christians and Jews and even the Alevis of Turkey use wine in many of their religious rituals. However, all schools are in agreement that it should be drunk responsibly and perhaps not even at all outside religious functions. So my interpretation is that social drinking is discouraged lest it lead to alcoholism, but there is no punishment on those who drink in moderation.
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Not to mention that wine is also mentioned prominently in the Torah and Gospels, often positively. Christians and Jews and even the Alevis of Turkey use wine in many of their religious rituals. However, all schools are in agreement that it should be drunk responsibly and perhaps not even at all outside religious functions. So my interpretation is that social drinking is discouraged lest it lead to alcoholism, but there is no punishment on those who drink in moderation.
peace
all schools? what schools? i did not know children discussed the acceptability of alcahol?
alcahol is not forbidden anyway, however the quran does mention they can be a great sin.
i have a beer after work sometimes, as i work in a sheep shearing shed so it is very physical, and nice to have a refreshing drink afterwards, however personaly i dont like the effects much, even 1 small can makes me have some slight effects, so i try to avoid it and bring my own ginger or root beer, which i much prefer.
it is an enjoyable taste though, i do hope to drink from the wine in the hereafter that has no such side effects! InshaAllah.
do not exceed the limits of God, that realy is the rule for all matters, other than that, i do not think that God has any problem if we enjoy some of the enjoyments He has given us.
the gospel has a great account of how the hypocrites critisize jesus calling him a drunkard or similar because he drank wine, i cant remember exactly, Inshallah i will find it, but it was one of those 'i cant win' situations because they find something to critisize regardless.
peace
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peace
all schools? what schools? i did not know children discussed the acceptability of alcahol?
alcahol is not forbidden anyway, however the quran does mention they can be a great sin.
i have a beer after work sometimes, as i work in a sheep shearing shed so it is very physical, and nice to have a refreshing drink afterwards, however personaly i dont like the effects much, even 1 small can makes me have some slight effects, so i try to avoid it and bring my own ginger or root beer, which i much prefer.
it is an enjoyable taste though, i do hope to drink from the wine in the hereafter that has no such side effects! InshaAllah.
do not exceed the limits of God, that realy is the rule for all matters, other than that, i do not think that God has any problem if we enjoy some of the enjoyments He has given us.
the gospel has a great account of how the hypocrites critisize jesus calling him a drunkard or similar because he drank wine, i cant remember exactly, Inshallah i will find it, but it was one of those 'i cant win' situations because they find something to critisize regardless.
peace
By "school", I meant the different sects of mainstream Islam such as Hanafi or Maliki and subsects thereof.
I come from a culture where alcohol is very regularly consumed and as I've said, the Quran can be interpreted based on one's culture. I do drink socially but recently have found myself spiralling into binge drinking of hard spirits on occassion. Inshaallah I shall overcome this demon and revert to drinking responsibly on social occassions.
And yes, the accounts in the Gospels involving Jesus and wine are the main reason why I believe responsible drinking is not forbidden in Islam.
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By "school", I meant the different sects of mainstream Islam such as Hanafi or Maliki and subsects thereof.
I come from a culture where alcohol is very regularly consumed and as I've said, the Quran can be interpreted based on one's culture. I do drink socially but recently have found myself spiralling into binge drinking of hard spirits on occassion. Inshaallah I shall overcome this demon and revert to drinking responsibly on social occassions.
And yes, the accounts in the Gospels involving Jesus and wine are the main reason why I believe responsible drinking is not forbidden in Islam.
Peace,
when you are sober, 'responsible drinking' is often an excuse or justification for 'getting just a little bit drunk'
when you are a little bit drunk, 'responsible drinking' is often an excuse for 'just one more'
after that one more 'responsible drinking' is often an excuse for 'i should stop soon'
soon you are too drunk to remember you are 'responsibly drinking'I hope that our Lord will help you to remember him, and to overcome your own desire (not 'this demon'. I understand, from my own experience, that it can be hard to overcome. You have to be willing to change, and God has to of willed for you to change.
Previously in my life..
I have had alcahol poisoning, the doctors apparently said i should have been dead, the level of alcahol in my blood. God apparently said i should be alive, Praise be to Him. Three times i have become uncounscious by inhaling solvents. The first time when i was unconcious, I dreamt that I was falling into the pit. it was like a black hole sucking me in, and i was pleading 'please dont let it take me!' and trying to claw my way back, without success, then all of a sudden i woke up. The second time my cousin found me lying in her garage and woke me up and called an ambulance. The third time i was sniffing petrol, and i spilt it on the carpet, then i was sniffing it of the carpet, I must have passed out, and completely by the will of The Most Gracious, my brother happened to come and visit me at that time. He pulled me up and slapped me awake, if i recall correctly, and told me i needed to find something to do with my life, that i was such a bright kid, and had so much potentual that i was throwing it away not using it. He died about a week later. After that i went downhill. I tried overdosing on pills, i took trays and trays. For three days i was vommiting, and could not even drink water, it just came back up. I was shaking intensely and felt like death, i never went to the hospital. Once i took magic mushrooms, i had taken them the previous two days, and this day I swore i would not take a trip, but all my freinds were tripping, and i picked up a cup to get a drink and it had 'mushroom soup' on it with the recipie, so i thought, oh why not. That night was one of the scariest of my life. it got so intense all i could see was rainbow colors and my head was ringing so much i thought it would explode. My mind was stuck on loop, the same thought just repeating. I thank God i was with others, i thought i was going to be stuck like that, and i would never come out of it. I kept telling them to just take me to the country and kill me. I tried to leave the appartment, but I couldnt. I literaly could not tie my shoes, every time i tried to, it was as if i stood back up, like i was not in control. I was intending to go somewhere quiet and kill myself when i left. Over the last while, i had cleaned up myself off those, but i still had been abusing cannabis, it got to a rediculous point. I started to not care again, and just focus on whatever i wanted to do, and did not care about anyone else. Then recently, By the will of God, my mother, my brother and I were travelling into town, we live in a country farm, and the roads are windy, Something happened, and my brother, who was driving, did the weirdest movement, and knocked my phone which was charging out of the center console, he looked down to see what had happened, and took his attention off the road. Then i remember my mum yelling 'watch out', i looked up, and by then, the car was half off the road. The last thing i saw was blue sky, some clouds, and a few treetops, there are some very steep hills around our area, some near vertical drops down into the valleys, I realized we were going down a hill, so i braced myself as we started to roll. What i experienced in that moment was profound, It was as if everything i had ever wanted, everything i owned, every part of my ego, every vain and useless worthless thing i had wasted my time with, everything that i had made a god besides God was stripped away, gone completely, and all that was left was my soul naked standing before God, I asked God 'please have mercy upon my soul, please give me another change, i have wronged myself, and if i die now i know with certainty that i am going to hell' all this just in a point of thought. Well he did have mercy upon me, he allowed me to come out of it uninjured apart from a stiff neck (well theres a sign in itself), and he has been changing my heart since then.
I have come to realize now, through all of my experiences in my life, especialy, but not only theese i mentioned, theese points
God is The Most Gracious, The Most Mercifull, The Pardoning, The Forgiving, The Forbearing, The Turner of ones heart, The Gaurdian, The Witness, The Preserver, The Lord and Sustainer, Provider, Overseer, Caretaker, Master, Foremost of all that is.
I was intending to make other points, but after The Most Gracious, i cannot find anything left to add..
apart from this..
As-Salam
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I like to treat Quranic verses as a set of rules. When I first came across the discussion about the permissibility of alcohol as a result of the verse not forbidding it explicitly, I found it quite surprising.
However, the fact that it's not explicitly haram doesn't change anything about its permissibilityMy approach is the following
Alcohol is not recommended but it's not haram.
However it is a sin to pray after consuming alcohol.The second rule automatically overrides the permissibility of the first one as if you were to follow the second rule, which currently I understand it to be compulsory, then that second rule would not allow you to consume alcohol.
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I like to treat Quranic verses as a set of rules. When I first came across the discussion about the permissibility of alcohol as a result of the verse not forbidding it explicitly, I found it quite surprising.
However, the fact that it's not explicitly haram doesn't change anything about its permissibilityMy approach is the following
Alcohol is not recommended but it's not haram.
However it is a sin to pray after consuming alcohol.The second rule automatically overrides the permissibility of the first one as if you were to follow the second rule, which currently I understand it to be compulsory, then that second rule would not allow you to consume alcohol.
Peace
Do not make unlawfull what God not!
it is not forbidden to attend to salat (what you are, i presume refering to, not 'prayer' after consuming alcahol.
we are told not to attend to salat when your mind is covered. i.e intoxicated, or if you cannot think clearly for any other reason to establish connection (aqeemu assalat)
in saying that. we all know alcahols side effects are not good, hence why i dont drink, and if i do, it is generaly 1 can, provided by my employer after work. although, i try to, when i remember take my own non alcaholic beer.
this is my sincere understanding.
What is the first and most important commandment? 'You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.'
Anything that gets in the way of that is a problem. full stop. other than that, do not make unlawfull what God has not
Peace
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Peace
Do not make unlawfull what God not!
it is not forbidden to attend to salat (what you are, i presume refering to, not 'prayer' after consuming alcahol.
we are told not to attend to salat when your mind is covered. i.e intoxicated, or if you cannot think clearly for any other reason to establish connection (aqeemu assalat)
in saying that. we all know alcahols side effects are not good, hence why i dont drink, and if i do, it is generaly 1 can, provided by my employer after work. although, i try to, when i remember take my own non alcaholic beer.
this is my sincere understanding.
What is the first and most important commandment? 'You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.'
Anything that gets in the way of that is a problem. full stop. other than that, do not make unlawfull what God has not
Peace
As you probably understood, my post was very superfluous as I didn't quote any verse and was just writing from memory so yeah made a few mistakes. What I meant was salat.
Your argument is that you can drink alcohol before salah as the verse doesn't explicitly mention alchohol but intoxication.
I understand your point and by that you mean that after having one glass of beer or wine you are still sober and capable of thinking and therefore not intoxicated, which means that you can perform salat, am I right?
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As you probably understood, my post was very superfluous as I didn't quote any verse and was just writing from memory so yeah made a few mistakes. What I meant was salat.
Your argument is that you can drink alcohol before salah as the verse doesn't explicitly mention alchohol but intoxication.
I understand your point and by that you mean that after having one glass of beer or wine you are still sober and capable of thinking and therefore not intoxicated, which means that you can perform salat, am I right?
Peace,
no worries, it is just that calling salat prayer leads to misconceptions.. although we all make mistakes, i myself almost everything i do contains some mistake i am made aware of..
I am just saying that 'consuming alcahol' does not mean one cannot do salat. i.e my brother drinks this cheap horribly sweet wine, and on occasion, i have a mouthfull to soothe a sore throat, because its so horribly sweet, and because it is alcaholic, it is very sooting on the throat.
On the other hand, it is up to the individual to detirmine how they wish to follow Gods commands. as i mentioned earlier in a post, i have gotten to the point where i do not even like having 1 beer, so now i just avoid it, although a taste, as with the above case, i do enjoy on occasion.
We have to look at the original text to get a better definition (443)
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O you, those who have trusted, do not go near the connection while you are intoxicated untill you know what you are saying....
my own understanding, note i translate amanu as trust, not believe and salat as connection not prayer, as i think this most accurately reflects the words, in my understanding
It also seems, perfect example of the former, i have maken a mistake, i was under the opinion that intoxicated was of the root k f r but i was obviously wrong it is s k r.
in that case, it does seem to mean drunken, and not 'mind covered over' as i had previously thought, alhamdullilah
i have also been avoiding salat when i have not been able to focus properly, such as if extreamly tired, although, they say that it is the equivalent of being drunk. it seems my choice to translate all the quran i post myself instead of relying upon others is paying off, alhamdullilah, i will have to reconsider what else i may have inccorrect now.
in this case, it does seem to clearly mean drunk.
i think the key point is 'untill you know what you are saying', so if you know what you are saying.. as in truely can focus on your words, then it is ok.
although again, there are other points in the quran on alcahol, which leads me to wish to avoid it unless for uses such as i mentioned earlier. but this is my own choice.
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Peace,
no worries, it is just that calling salat prayer leads to misconceptions.. although we all make mistakes, i myself almost everything i do contains some mistake i am made aware of..
I am just saying that 'consuming alcahol' does not mean one cannot do salat. i.e my brother drinks this cheap horribly sweet wine, and on occasion, i have a mouthfull to soothe a sore throat, because its so horribly sweet, and because it is alcaholic, it is very sooting on the throat.
On the other hand, it is up to the individual to detirmine how they wish to follow Gods commands. as i mentioned earlier in a post, i have gotten to the point where i do not even like having 1 beer, so now i just avoid it, although a taste, as with the above case, i do enjoy on occasion.
We have to look at the original text to get a better definition (443)
....
O you, those who have trusted, do not go near the connection while you are intoxicated untill you know what you are saying....
my own understanding, note i translate amanu as trust, not believe and salat as connection not prayer, as i think this most accurately reflects the words, in my understanding
It also seems, perfect example of the former, i have maken a mistake, i was under the opinion that intoxicated was of the root k f r but i was obviously wrong it is s k r.
in that case, it does seem to mean drunken, and not 'mind covered over' as i had previously thought, alhamdullilah
i have also been avoiding salat when i have not been able to focus properly, such as if extreamly tired, although, they say that it is the equivalent of being drunk. it seems my choice to translate all the quran i post myself instead of relying upon others is paying off, alhamdullilah, i will have to reconsider what else i may have inccorrect now.
in this case, it does seem to clearly mean drunk.
i think the key point is 'untill you know what you are saying', so if you know what you are saying.. as in truely can focus on your words, then it is ok.
although again, there are other points in the quran on alcahol, which leads me to wish to avoid it unless for uses such as i mentioned earlier. but this is my own choice.
Thank you for the explanation Timotheus.
I have highlighted some of the points you've raised.
What I am gathering from your point of view is the following- You're translating 443 as not approaching salat while drunk
- You're also pointing out that salat should not be performed until you don't know what you're saying, which can be as a result of being drunk or any other case (e.g being very tired and being able to focus)
-If I understand this correctly, for you intoxication and being drunk are two different things right, where the former means like having one beer and being able to know what you're saying during salat and the latter means drinking su much that you don't know what you're saying.
if they key point is until you know what you're saying and you can focus on your words then would you agree that it is ok for my friend to have 6 glasses of beer and then perform salat?
I have been out several times with him and he told me that he has built tolerance against alcohol, indeed I've noticed him drunk only twice and he had around 12 glasses of beer; however I never noticed him having any trouble focusing while having 6-7 glasses of beer.
NOTE I can understand that he might have had drinks with a very low percentage of alcohol and therefore 6 glasses of beer might be the equivalent of one glass of beer you're having(although I doubt it as I know he had shots of tequila and vodka,which I've told are strong) but my point here is that is it ok for a person to keep drinking, because they have built a tolerance, as long as they can focus on their words?
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Peace,
just follow what God
Thank you for the explanation Timotheus.
I have highlighted some of the points you've raised.
What I am gathering from your point of view is the following- You're translating 443 as not approaching salat while drunk
- You're also pointing out that salat should not be performed until you don't know what you're saying, which can be as a result of being drunk or any other case (e.g being very tired and being able to focus)
-If I understand this correctly, for you intoxication and being drunk are two different things right, where the former means like having one beer and being able to know what you're saying during salat and the latter means drinking su much that you don't know what you're saying.
if they key point is until you know what you're saying and you can focus on your words then would you agree that it is ok for my friend to have 6 glasses of beer and then perform salat?
I have been out several times with him and he told me that he has built tolerance against alcohol, indeed I've noticed him drunk only twice and he had around 12 glasses of beer; however I never noticed him having any trouble focusing while having 6-7 glasses of beer.
NOTE I can understand that he might have had drinks with a very low percentage of alcohol and therefore 6 glasses of beer might be the equivalent of one glass of beer you're having(although I doubt it as I know he had shots of tequila and vodka,which I've told are strong) but my point here is that is it ok for a person to keep drinking, because they have built a tolerance, as long as they can focus on their words?
Peace,
Drunk is what the dictionary says for that word.
'do not approach salat while drunk untill you know what you are saying' is my honest effort at translating.intoxication means having excess toxins in your body
drunk means being under the influence of alcahol, to the point where you have side effects.neither of theese words are in the quran, they are english words.
Personaly i would not approach salat if i dont know what i am saying or cannot focus properly under any circumstances. or else its just in vain.
however, i do not make the law, i just do my best to follow it. dont follow me, or my interpretation, follow God alone. research for yourself. if you cannot understand arabic then learn it, and ask God for guidance, because otherwise you are following human beings, and the quran tells us not to follow after that which we have no knowledge of. dont follow me, or anyone else, lest you be mislead.
regardless if its half a dozen or a dozen or two dozen, its obviously an excessive amount, and to me, in my understanding, is a clear sin. I do my best to advocate righteousness, so if you want my opinion, dont drink at all, dont go out, stay at home and study the quran! or go out serving your lord, not following the footsteps of satan, and consuming that which is tanted with his work. prehaps you may recieve mercy.
If you want Gods guidance, and his commandment, if you are a truster in him, then follow what he has revealed, follow his guidance, purify yourself and do righteousness, believe in him and his revelations, that you may recieve mercy, strive in his cause with the striving due to him. seek the hereafter, not the pleasures of this world.
In saying that God did not forbid alcahol. he did not forbid pleasure, but first and foremost, seek his pleasure, prehaps there will be a reward in there hereafter.
Peace
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Peace,
The only thing I am following is your logic so I can get a better understanding on how you're reasoning, I can assure you that this conversation it's not about following someone or finding a justification to drink as I don't drink anyway.
I was just pointing out what you said, which I find it to be contradictory in my opinion
if you can approach salat as long as you can focus and know what you're saying, therefore if having one glass of beer is ok and not a sin, so should be having 6 glasses of beer and the following statement is null
regardless if its half a dozen or a dozen or two dozen, its obviously an excessive amount, and to me, in my understanding, is a clear sin.
because that might be an excess for you but not for the person who's tolerant to half a dozer,dozer or two dozer, who is still capable of focusing, know what he's saying under those circumstances.
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Peace,
The only thing I am following is your logic so I can get a better understanding on how you're reasoning, I can assure you that this conversation it's not about following someone or finding a justification to drink as I don't drink anyway.
I was just pointing out what you said, which I find it to be contradictory in my opinion
if you can approach salat as long as you can focus and know what you're saying, therefore if having one glass of beer is ok and not a sin, so should be having 6 glasses of beer and the following statement is null
because that might be an excess for you but not for the person who's tolerant to half a dozer,dozer or two dozer, who is still capable of focusing, know what he's saying under those circumstances.
Peace,
for each to their own, i do not desire to be a part of such a pointless vain argument. do what you will, so will I.
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I am saddened to see such a childish reaction. At no point my my comments were intended to be offensive and at no point I've asked you to change your mind or do as I am.
I guess, any argument that goes against your way of thinking is pointless.
Have a good day.
Peace
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I am saddened to see such a childish reaction. At no point my my comments were intended to be offensive and at no point I've asked you to change your mind or do as I am.
I guess, any argument that goes against your way of thinking is pointless.
Have a good day.
Peace
Peace
I already told you not to follow me! i am a human being. follow God.
I am not going to debate on how many drinks is enough or too much or tolerable. it is vanity
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2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering Godand from the Salat. Will you be deterred?
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tainted by the work of the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
more harm than benefit, causing strife, repeling from remembering God and salat, and tainted by the devil
seems like a loosing deal to me..
Peace
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Sometimes we (human beings) engage in debates for the purpose of being convinced. It's a bit like playing devil's advocate. I'm not saying this is what happened in this thread, but it happens every now and then.
Cheers
the clans of devil see you from where you cannot see them,,
he use the same old trick due to which our ansestors once pay a price... and we have a burden of this body due to which we do everything ,, sometimes take a wrong way for fullfulling the need of body,, we are still in illusion , the real self is inside the body..
and alcohal also affect the real self when our conscience is unable to judge between right and wrong...
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The translation of 443 you propose is weak. You ignore a conjunction but change it for "while". It says "...wa antum..." It should be "...and if you are..." The 'wa' in the phrase is strongly indicating conjunction there, new clause.
The true story is that the whole passage needs revision.
Be well
Amenuel -
The translation of 443 you propose is weak. You ignore a conjunction but change it for "while". It says "...wa antum..." It should be "...and if you are..." The 'wa' in the phrase is strongly indicating conjunction there, new clause.
The true story is that the whole passage needs revision.
Be well
AmenuelPeace,
the whole quran more likely. much of it anyway.
are you refering to my interpretations?