20 september 617
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peace noshirk,
then, how do we see this 7623 - We have sent down to you the Qur'an in stages.
will the above statement not contradict 7623.
peace.
Salaam brother
7623 - We have sent down (anzalnahou) to you the Qur'an in stages (tanzilan).
traducing tanzilan by "in stages" is already an interpretation.
i could traduce 7623 by We have sent down to you the Qur'an in one shot.however, as tanzil is derived from anzala, the more neutral traduction would be
7623 by We have sent down to you the Qur'an by "a sending down".to understand tanzilan meaning, let see use of this word in quran.
2525 And the Day when the heaven will be filled with clouds, and the angels will be sent down tanzilan.
here, it is clear that tanzilan occurs in one day. the "one stage" traduction fit very bad with the context of that verse.
let see also this verse explaining what is leylatou el Qadr
974 The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every matter.it seems that "spirit and angels" are not allowed to descent "at demand" from rassol as requires the "in stages" theory and bullshit science of "reasons of revelation"
Seems also the the "in stages" theory fit very bad with way of revelation of torah.In stages versus one shot revelation is discussed here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604235.10 with brother pazuzu and sister ayisha.
One shot versus in stages theory is a very central issue in understanding quran.
One advantage of one shot theory is that it allows Muhammad to teach islam with words of God and not his own words. Muhammad never used Hadiths.Peace
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Salaam brother
7623 - We have sent down (anzalnahou) to you the Qur'an in stages (tanzilan).
traducing tanzilan by "in stages" is already an interpretation.
i could traduce 7623 by We have sent down to you the Qur'an in one shot.however, as tanzil is derived from anzala, the more neutral traduction would be
7623 by We have sent down to you the Qur'an by "a sending down".
Peacepeace brother,
2532 - And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?"
here we can see the disbelievers asking for one shot revelation. where as Allah say to strengthen the prophet's heart He sent down gradually. then the prophet can also recite to the people progressively 17106.
if it was one shot the above question would not have raised.
peace.
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Noshirk, thaks for your thoughts on everything. It certianly makes people think.
Concenring this one shot revelation, if we take it as a fact
could it be that it was revealed in one shot but that the Prophet could transmit it at a different pace, either according to God's orders or according to his own appreciation of what had to be done and when or a mixture of both?
Other than that I tend to agree with you that all the additions concenring the occasion of revelation of different ayas is not necessarily true and might not be needed. I think when the revelation rquires a context that context is found in the Qur'an itself and that no additional information is called for. So it is left up to the believer to apply the Qur'an as he or she goes along and see what fits the circumstances and what not.
Salaam
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Salaam Borthers Huruf and DrGM
i will give a response for both of you since it is the same.
25-32 is an interesting verse. It shoud be studied together with the following verse.
2532 And those who rejected said "If only the Qur'an was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged it accordingly.
2533 And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.First Remark is that Quran put in the mounths of rejectors the appearent affirmation that Quran was not revealed one shot. That is gradual revelation is based on what rejectors says.
It is obvious that Rejectors cannot accept one shot hypothesis. Accepting it would make them believers since alternative scenarios are difficult to accept.So, all kinds of rejectors should agree on "gradual appearance" of ayats. No rejector can accept one shot revelation. Linking messages and meaning of Quran, that is the wirtten science of God, to the bullshit "science" of asbab al nozoul and the "special events" of life of Muhammad, is a central issue in rejection. With one shot revelation hypothesis, there is quite no way to buid a tale on every verse as hadiths do. Quran cannot be fragmented as it is done. Meaning of Words of Allah can be claimed to be in other bullshits books explaining us why God said us what he said.
25-32 is saying that "the way quran" was revealed is to strengthen the heart of Muhammad.
Strenghting it in what sense ? Shoud we think that if quran was revealed in another way, muhammad would have believed less ? That he would haved Doubted that he was rassool Allah ?I think that Quran was revealed in a way that it streghthen the believe of Muhammad in the power of quran to respond to every example by "the best explanation"'. Muhammad have to be convinced in the power of words of Allah to do such a thing. Again, that power need a one shot revelation since a response before the question is much more convincing than a response after it.
From a rejector point of view, Muhammad was inventing responses as he needed them.
From a believer point of view, Muhammad was responding with a book revealed one shot and containg all responses to all religious questions he was facing. In such a way, much more impressionning, Muhammad never said "please wait tomorrow for response". Response was already in his mind.So quran was revealed one shot (that is download in night of measure in the mind of Muhammad) and Muhammad used it as the "only" reference to respond and teach islam. That is Muhammad never needed Hadiths.
Muhammad teached hikma. That is judgement and appreciation of meaning of words of God (3-7 explains that Muhaamd didn't understood all quran). Each event in his life was an occasion to study and reflect about meaning of what he already received. It is exactely the same way God uses to teach meaning of his words to each one of us who have dowlnloaded his words in his heart.Appearent gradual revelation is the arrangement in wich quran was explained by circumciantal facts during the life of Muhammad. One shot revelation doesnt mean one shot understanding and one shot teaching.
the expression "and the rejectors said" is used many times. Rejectors says always wrong things. They never believed in quran and then, logically, even their question relies on such hypothesis.
Even nowadays, hadithist will says "how to fix the time of the five daily salat with only quran and without our hadiths and what our ancestors and their scholars teachd us ?"
This an example of corrupted question based on false belief. There is no 5 salats in quran.Finding corruption in the questions themselves of rejectors is a great teaching of God.
No believer can rely an important belief on what rejectors says. Questions or responses.Really, one shot versus gradual revelation is a very important debate.
Gradual revelation is necessary to chaytan to introduce his teachings.Peace
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salaam All
i am now in my ramadan, according to my own understanding
while studying quran it came to me this easy and quite stupid argument734 Or a little more, and arrange the Qur?an in its arrangement.
this verse is supposed to have been revealed in the third sourate according to bulshit science of order of revelation.
so, at the time of the supposed time of revelation, only sourate 96 and 68 have already been revealed.so the simple and very stupid question is
How 734 can speak about a Quran if 98,5% has not been revealed yet ? brickwallNowhere in quran, Allah is speaking about verses or sourate that will be revealed.
Quran was revealed one shot. I am now certain.The only exception is sourate 9. It is the only sourate who speaks about verses revealed after others and speak of quran quite as a past revelation
9111 God has purchased from the believers their very lives and their wealth, that they will have the Paradise; they fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed; a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur?an. And whoever fulfills this pledge with God, then have good news of the pledge which you are concluded with. Such is the great triumph.961 Read in the name of your Lord who has created.
this supposed first revealed verse would have raised the stupid question
sorry God, what to read ? you haven't given any book yet offtopicPeace
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Peace noshirk,
You are the first one to convince me of ramadan according to non-traditional methods. This is very interesting.
Since I accept the mathematical structure of the Quran, it is especially interesting that the equinox moon occurred around 19 o'clock and that the following super moon was between October 19 and 20.Laylat al qadr being equinox (night) is a viable interpretation.
I checked that this year there i also supposed to be a lunar eclipse in September.
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Peace noshirk,
You are the first one to convince me of ramadan according to non-traditional methods. This is very interesting.
Since I accept the mathematical structure of the Quran, it is especially interesting that the equinox moon occurred around 19 o'clock and that the following super moon was between October 19 and 20.Laylat al qadr being equinox (night) is a viable interpretation.
I checked that this year there i also supposed to be a lunar eclipse in September.
"19 o clock" and more especially "October 19" aren't those extremely arbitrary designations? Gregorian Calendar and stuff? The numbers don't have that much meaning really I think, in the case of those.
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"19 o clock" and more especially "October 19" aren't those extremely arbitrary designations? Gregorian Calendar and stuff? The numbers don't have that much meaning really I think, in the case of those.
The mathematical miracle was discovered in 1974 according to the regular calendar and in 1406 (=19x74) according to the Hijri calendar. 19 is mentioned in chapter 74. Also, most of the world uses a 24-hour clock system.
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Salaam All
I know that nowadays the fact that shahr means full moon and not a lunar cycle (wich is sana) looks strange.
i will put here some hadiths. It is not to proove anything else that this understanding is old ant not an innovation of 20 th century
found here http//www.hadithdujour.com/hadiths/hadith-sur-Jeuner-les-jours-blancs_511.asp
Je?ner les jours blancs
Au nom d?Allah, le Tout Mis?ricordieux, le Tr?s Mis?ricordieux.
D'apr?s 'Abdel Malik Ibn Qudama Ibn Malhan, d'apr?s son p?re (qu'Allah les agr?e), le Proph?te (que la pri?re d'Allah et son salut soient sur lui) nous ordonnait de je?ner les jours blancs, le 13, le 14 et le 15 et il disait ? Ceci est comme le je?ne du mois entier ?.
(Rapport? par Nasai et authentifi? par Cheikh Albani dans Sahih Taghrib n?1039)( ٩
D'apr?s Abou Dhar (qu'Allah l'agr?e), le Proph?te (que la pri?re d'Allah et son salut soient sur lui) a dit ? Si tu je?nes 3 jours dans le mois, alors je?ne le 13e, le 14e et le 15e ?.
(Rapport? par Tirmidhi dans ses Sounan n?761 qui l'a authentifi? et il a ?galement ?t? authentifi? par Cheikh Albani dans sa correction de Sounan Tirmidhi)( ي
D'apr?s Jarir Ibn 'Abdillah (qu'Allah les agr?e), le Proph?te (que la pri?re d'Allah et son salut soient sur lui) a dit ? Le je?ne de trois jours chaque mois est comme le je?ne continue et les jours blancs sont le matin du 13e jour, du 14e et du 15e ?.
(Rapport? par Nasai n?2420 et authentifi? par cheikh Albani dans sa correction de Sounan Nasai)( ي
D'apr?s Abou Houreira (qu'Allah l'agr?e), un b?douin s'est rendu aupr?s du Proph?te (que la pri?re d'Allah et Son salut soient sur lui) avec un lapin qu'il avait pr?par? et il l'a pos? devant lui.
Le Proph?te (que la pri?re d'Allah et Son salut soient sur lui) s'est abstenu, il n'a pas mang?, ses compagnons se sont abstenus et le b?douin s'est lui aussi abstenu.
Alors le Proph?te (que la pri?re d'Allah et Son salut soient sur lui) lui a dit ? Qu'est ce qui t'emp?che de manger ? ?.
Il a dit Je je?ne trois jours chaque mois.
Le Proph?te (que la pri?re d'Allah et Son salut soient sur lui) lui dit alors ? Si tu je?nes, alors je?ne la clart? ? c'est ? dire les jours blancs.
(Rapport? par Nasai, Ahmed et Ibn Hibban et authentifi? par cheikh Albani dans Silsila Sahiha n?1567).
( ٧
well, these hadiths says that "fasting" the "white nights", that are 13, 14 and 15 th , is "fasting" the month.
if we count from the "new moon", 13, 14, and 15 th nights are the three nights of "full moon" in the lunar cyclePeace
Peace