Purgatory
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Peace,
The souls of dead people are held in the same place that we all go when we sleep...
Bad people will have nightmares during their wait, good people will have pleasent dreams.
The only exception is martyrs who are automatically granted life with God and admitted to a place which is akin to heaven (but not heaven proper).
Khi- Salam. This is a good explanation. Ive thght abt whether we r responsible 4 our deeds in dreams or not. The Quran does say tht GOD takes our souls back at sleep. But there r two main parts of sleep. One is REM(rapid eye movement phase) n the other non-REM. In the non REM phase we r completely at rest n feel nothing. We never feel or experience this situation n our conscience jumps 2 the REM phase. We thus experience those many hrs in rem phase as mere nothing or no time. The REM phase is the one in which we see dreams which is usually the last part of sleep in which our eyes move rapidly left right as we watch the dream scenario. Now is GOD talking abt the non REM phase only where He takes our souls away or the complete sleep. I think the former makes more sense since thts the part we dont feel anything i.e. we become like non existant. In our dreams we do experience n feel ourselves dont we? GOD Bless!
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Peace Layth,
I agree with your thoughts. Interesting that you mentioned the experience of martyrs. I often wonder about folks who've had near-death experiences and remark about a blissful peace, incomparable to this life. Perhaps they "touched" this portion of heaven 'minor'.
What say you?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay
Yes, and no. Yes, an action has a beginning and an end, and in the course of our lives, the consequences occur in the realm of Karma. This is what I mean by on-going. But in the end, meaning the end of life, we are judged. This judgement is final.
I understand what you are saying, I was merely nitpicking the use of the term end.
You mention that this judgement is final, when did the judgements before this take place?
I understand, but I disagree. Again, the example of lucid dreaming indicates that the consiousness is not dead during sleep, only that the subconscious is dominant.
I should have being more clear wih my choice of words. Our conciousness of what is happening around us is dead during sleep.
Are you sure, because this seems to be the crux of our debate.
As sure as my understanding permits, please correct me if I am wrong.
I agree with your def. of karma We meet our self (cannot touch what we pushed away-truth).
I agree with your def. of judgement day We confront our self (viel removed).
Yes, evolution of the self begins in this life. But the quantum leap from this life to the next is the evolution I'm speaking of.
I see what you are implying. I was only elaborating on what you said to demonstrate how everything reflects/mirrors eachother on a macro/micro scale.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. My understanding is that the physical body dies and decays and remains in this plane of existence as worm food and fertilizer, while our nafs ascends into the Hereafter, returning to the Source.
Well, 'as a tree falls so does it lie.' That is to say, when we cast away our flesh garments thats all we are doing, changing clothes. We do not all of a sudden change from a tyrant to a peacemaker by changing something on the outside, as we can see all things are concieved within, thier shadows only bear without. This is my take.
One can be in jail, yet may be freeer than one who is imprisoned in thier mind. This I believe is why we are reffered to as clay, it is up to us wether our body becomes a prison or not.
I understand now. Yes, we can see the manifestations of our actions in this life, but I believe it is only available in glimpses.
As I have mentioned before, many people who have had near-death experiences have recounted having what is dubbed a life review. I recall you mentioned having one (near death experience), care to elaborate?
Perhaps, if one had the time and the energy to meditate and reflect on an entire lifetime of decisions, actions, and inactions, one could see a good chunk of this manifestation, but I doubt the physical brain is capable of holding such memories. The results of our deeds are imprinted on our soul, whether we remember them or not.
Percisely, this is how our hands, feet and body bear witness to us.
I gotta say that I cannot disgree here. I think the terms multi-layered and intersecting are subjective in this particular context and we could go on forever supporting our understandings, with neither of us being wrong.
I understand.
That's where life has me right now. I don't plan on staying in this routine much longer.
Beautiful, the deeper we carve the cup, the more it can hold.
Hmm...I think it's the other way around. The subconscious is the real "us", and should not be lead, but should be leading.
Your right. Rather the children of Israel are more akin to our emotions (in art). I had a lovely session of directing the children to a canvas today, yaay.
peace
Edit typos/small errors
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Peace Khalil,
You stated
You mention that this judgement is final, when did the judgements before this take place?
It is on-going(Karma)
Our conciousness of what is happening around us is dead at sleep.
Gotcha, and I agree. Interestingly, a book I'm currently reading (The Holographic Universe) is seriously challenging this very belief. It is, in fact, challenging many of my beliefs. we'll see where it takes me wink
I agree with your def. of karma We meet our self (cannot touch what we pushed away-truth).
I agree with your def. of judgement day We confront our self (viel removed).
D
I see, I was just demonstrating how everything reflects/mirrors each other.
My apologies for missing the point. Let's take it one step further, every 'thing' contains all the information of everything.
Well, 'as a tree falls so does it lie.' That is to say, when we cast away our flesh garments thats all we are doing, changing clothes. We do not all of a sudden change from a tyrant to a peacemaker by changing something on the outside, as we can see all things are concieved within, thier shadows only bear without. This is my take.
I understand and agree. What orignally threw me off was your use of the word "physical". Thanks for clarifying.
As I have mentioned before, many people who have had near-death experiences have recounted having what is dubbed a life review. I recall you mentioned having one, care to elaborate?
My near-death experience was not so much a "life review", as it was a momentary graduation. I had no recollection of this world, this life, my family, my friends, and I didn't mind one bit. I was being pulled toward a massive barrier, but I was in the form of a formless consciousness. I was only thought, at peace, yet powerless. My memories of it are still vivid, and I often conclude that I may have been heading towards Hell. I am ever grateful to God for giving me a second chance. I've since changed my awful habits and, although I still have my vices, I feel I've become a better person. If my time allows it, I will be free from vice, free from physical reality, before my next moment of reckoning.
As for any real "life reviews" I've experienced, I've only had glimpses, albeit, very powerful and clear glimpses. I know what I need to do, I just need to do what I know.
I had a lovely session of directing the children to a canvas today, yaay.
God bless you.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay
It is on-going(Karma)
hmmm... Karma is judgement just not the final judgement?
Gotcha, and I agree. Interestingly, a book I'm currently reading (The Holographic Universe) is seriously challenging this very belief. It is, in fact, challenging many of my beliefs. we'll see where it takes me wink
That is beautiful indeed. It is amazing to see what picture ones mind can create when they have a fresh surface to dabble on.
every 'thing' contains all the information of everything.
Think DNA
I understand and agree. What orignally threw me off was your use of the word "physical". Thanks for clarifying.
No problem. You say tomato, I say tamato.
My near-death experience was not so much a "life review", as it was a momentary graduation.
The error is mine, I meant you had a near death experience, not a life review.
I had no recollection of this world, this life, my family, my friends, and I didn't mind one bit. I was being pulled toward a massive barrier, but I was in the form of a formless consciousness. I was only thought, at peace, yet powerless. My memories of it are still vivid, and I often conclude that I may have been heading towards Hell. I am ever grateful to God for giving me a second chance. I've since changed my awful habits and, although I still have my vices, I feel I've become a better person. If my time allows it, I will be free from vice, free from physical reality, before my next moment of reckoning.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Two questions come to mind. Why do you feel you were heading towards hell? How did your near-death experience occour?
As for any real "life reviews" I've experienced, I've only had glimpses, albeit, very powerful and clear glimpses. I know what I need to do, I just need to do what I know.
The great dilemma, it seems to be the same problem throughout recorded history.
God bless you.
Thanks for the love, may God breath life into your music.
peace
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Peace Khalil,
hmmm... Karma is judgement just not the final judgement?
Kinda sorta. I prefer to think of Karma as the daily cause and effect, while the "final judgement" is the ultimate cause and effect.
Two questions come to mind. Why do you feel you were heading towards hell? How did your near-death experience occour?
I passed out at a "balloon party". I was on several hallucinogenic drugs at the same time, mixed with alcohol among other things, and carelessly inhaled from a good 15 of these ballons filled with nitrous oxide.
As for why I think it was Hell, the barrier I spoke of was a wall of flame that seemed to extend in all directions infinitely. I was being pulled towards it. The strange thing is, I didn't mind. I had let go of life. The only worldly connection I still had was the sound of faint voices, slowly growing louder..."come on man, you can do it...you gotta come back man...hold on...hold on...come one man..." and then I woke up in a bathroom, looking up at 4 people I've never met before, or after. They looked horrified, yet relieved, as if they'd seen a ghost. God only knows what I was doing while unconscious to make them so concerned. But I'm grateful to them for helping me back, whoever they are.
Thanks for the love, may God breath life into your music.
Likewise, your art.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay
I passed out at a "balloon party". I was on several hallucinogenic drugs at the same time, mixed with alcohol among other things, and carelessly inhaled from a good 15 of these ballons filled with nitrous oxide.
As for why I think it was Hell, the barrier I spoke of was a wall of flame that seemed to extend in all directions infinitely. I was being pulled towards it. The strange thing is, I didn't mind. I had let go of life. The only worldly connection I still had was the sound of faint voices, slowly growing louder..."come on man, you can do it...you gotta come back man...hold on...hold on...come one man..." and then I woke up in a bathroom, looking up at 4 people I've never met before, or after. They looked horrified, yet relieved, as if they'd seen a ghost. God only knows what I was doing while unconscious to make them so concerned. But I'm grateful to them for helping me back, whoever they are.
In my opinion it seems we must (I don't know if we must, yet it seems like so) experience the depths before we long for the heights, like planting a seed in soil.
I find it Interesting that you mention you did not mind being pulled toward the fire. A book I was reading yesterday (1) used a nice metaphor to explain such as like attracts like.
It takes more so than a day to remove the yarn of our habits which we've spun over time, thus one who's fabric is of serving its desires will be inclined/yoked/chained to that and not content with paradise until they begin to unwind/unravvel their fabric one day at a time.
Just thought I'd mention this.
Likewise, your art.
I uploaded several of my sketches online ( link.)
The quality is not the best because I just snapped them with a digi cam, once the march break is complete I will have access to a scanner and will show you them in actual high-res (as I do ALOT of minute detail in my pen peices).
Any feedback would be appreciated. Good day.
peace
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Peace Khalil,
One word...amazing!
Thank you for sharing your work. I've downloaded all the pics and I'm in the process of analyzing and making judgements about you. Just kidding I can't wait to see the details. It looks like a lot of stuff happening in those pics. As for feedback, what can I say - it's expression - and a great job of it at that. I hope you're not wasting that talent of yours.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay
One word...amazing!
oops
Thank you for sharing your work. I've downloaded all the pics and I'm in the process of analyzing and making judgements about you. Just kidding
Do not worry, it has being said we are our own worst critic so judge as harsh as you want, you cannot possibly outdue my harsh judgements P
I can't wait to see the details. It looks like a lot of stuff happening in those pics. As for feedback, what can I say - it's expression - and a great job of it at that. I hope you're not wasting that talent of yours.
I have try'd the other road of serving the ego and a bumpy road like that can only lead to accidents, I am not out to be a back seat driver no more.
I am out to become an art teacher, which reminds me, where are you setting your sail towards?
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace Khalil,
Do not worry, it has being said we are our own worst critic so judge as harsh as you want, you cannot possibly outdue my harsh judgements
I didn't mean it like that. I meant, jokingly of course, that I would be analyzing the meanings behind your pictures to draw conclusions about your persona. Sorry for the confusion.
I have try'd the other road of serving the ego and a bumpy road like that can only lead to accidents, I am not out to be a back seat driver no more...I am out to become an art teacher
Well then, you're putting your talents to good use, which is what I was hoping.
which reminds me, where are you setting your sail towards?
My purpose is slowly coming in to focus. I'll let you know when I get there. I'm thinking it may be some sort of healing/therapy, but that;s just a shot in the dark at this point. In the meantime, I just visited a friend of mine who needs a partner for his recording studio. This has the makings of something great. We'll see what happens.
btw, I've found the time to locate my tracks. Now it's just a matter of making the right selections before the upload. I'll keep you posted.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay
I didn't mean it like that. I meant, jokingly of course, that I would be analyzing the meanings behind your pictures to draw conclusions about your persona. Sorry for the confusion.
I guess my humour was to dry to be absorbed, I knew you were joking I try'd to response in the same light as well, no offence was taken.
However, I am glad you are serious about analysing my work, most people accept or reject work which I have spent hours to months on in a minutes time.
Well then, you're putting your talents to good use, which is what I was hoping.
At the moment this is what I am aiming towards (art teacher), although I may change my outlet in the future but the constructive goal will always remain, without a doubt I will do a career involving art.
My purpose is slowly coming in to focus. I'll let you know when I get there. I'm thinking it may be some sort of healing/therapy, but that;s just a shot in the dark at this point. In the meantime, I just visited a friend of mine who needs a partner for his recording studio. This has the makings of something great. We'll see what happens.
Music can be very healing, as well as a therapy on its own. I learned/grew a great deal just by listening to music. I believe visual arts is very theraputic and can attune one to inner healing. I am sure that what ever you do set you minds eye towards will be constructive as you are giving this considerable thought and are looking towards buildingg rather than destroying.
btw, I've found the time to locate my tracks. Now it's just a matter of making the right selections before the upload. I'll keep you posted.
Sounds cool, I'll wait.
Peace,
khalil -
"When released from the body each soul is destined for immortal life and its future in eternity is determined by its state when death takes place, and the soul is released from the body. When the body dies and the soul is released, it suddenly finds itself in the full light of awareness, able to see itself as it stands in the sight of God. It then realizes the darkness to which the body's actions condemned it. The sensitivity of the soul to the enormity of the Light of God is like the naked eye before the brilliance of a thousand suns and the soul in darkness quivers in pain. It plunges itself into the sea of Hell to avoid the pain of the enormity of the Light."
"The soul destined for Purgatory seeks the level in Purgatory appropriate to its own imperfection. It will automatically plunge itself into Purgatory to be cleansed and purified, aware of all the sins for which it failed to atone sufficiently; it will gladly go to whatever level of Purgatory is necessary, and it will be eternally grateful to God for Purgatory, in the knowledge that it will one day gain His Presence in Heaven."
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That was the short version. Here is the rest of it
THE REALITY OF HELL
"During life, if a soul gets deeper and deeper into sin, darkness and blindness, God will call and call that soul, time after time, urging it to respond to the Light.
"But if a person does not want to hear and does not want to see and refused to respond, the body will make of that soul a living hell, in all the faculties of that person, and it responds only to the temptation of the Devil.
"If the person dies in that state, his soul, on being released from its mortality, realizes that it cannot come before the greatness and Light of God in that state, because it just could not bear it. The pain would be too great, because if that soul had been prepared for Hell by the life lived by the body on earth, and it came before the greatness of God - everything of total love and goodness - in the enormity of that Light and Goodness, the soul would suffer enormous agony.
"So it is not so much God condemning it or casting it into Hell, as the soul itself, unable to bear the pain of the enormity of the Light of God casting itself into Hell."
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Hello All,
I have enjoyed reading this topic on purgatory, particulary the dialogue between Tay and Khalil. I think they are very interresting insightful. Its pity a that I was not here to participate in it from the begining -( but I will not lenghthen the thread any longer with further comments apart from that I agree with many points that Khalil and Tay Touched upon.
But I am happy to find few artistic people here on this forum -) I just browsed Khalil's work and I think its outstanding! Vangoh is one of my favourite artist too. I would love to hear sample of Tay's music -)
It is my view that Art and Religion has always coexisted and played a very important role in our human development. And art will continue to play an important role throughout the future of humanity.
And Tay, I found your near death experience a fascinating read. You say you were not bothered being propelled towards that wall of fire. I am really just curious about that. Majority of NDE's go through a life review - yours did not. Perhaps we could open a new thread to discuss NDE's?
One more question I would like to ask both Tay and Khalil is that when you create any work of art - what is the first impulse behind it?
Regards,
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Peace Khalil,
I am glad you are serious about analysing my work, most people accept or reject work which I have spent hours to months on in a minutes time.
I know the feeling cry
Art is a brotherhood. I've always bonded best with true artists. And it's usually the bonding that happens first, and then I later find out that the person is an artist. My closest circle of friends consists of all artists in some form they consist of writers, musicians, producers, DJ's, and fashion designers.I frequent Manhattan often in the warmer months, and I'm always more compelled to give the street artists money than the panhandlers. I feel closer to them. It's a strange phenomenon.
At the moment this is what I am aiming towards (art teacher), although I may change my outlet in the future but the constructive goal will always remain, without a doubt I will do a career involving art.
That's a great attitude, bro. Remember, we are what we visualize. Stay focused and you will certainly succeed.
Music can be very healing, as well as a therapy on its own. I learned/grew a great deal just by listening to music. I believe visual arts is very theraputic and can attune one to inner healing.
True indeed!
I am sure that what ever you do set you minds eye towards will be constructive as you are giving this considerable thought and are looking towards building rather than destroying.
Thanks for the encouragement wink
Sounds cool, I'll wait.
I've actually got 2 days off in a row!!! So, hopefully, after this weekend, we'll have something to share.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace LoteTree,
I have enjoyed reading this topic on purgatory, particulary the dialogue between Tay and Khalil.
Its pity a that I was not here to participate in it from the begining but I will not lenghthen the thread any longer with further comments apart from that I agree with many points that Khalil and Tay Touched upon
Hey bro, the thread is still open. Lengthen away!!!!
I would love to hear sample of Tay's music
Coming soon, I hope.
It is my view that Art and Religion has always coexisted and played a very important role in our human development. And art will continue to play an important role throughout the future of humanity.
Yes. Art is a tool for refining the soul. There is nothing rational or logical about it. It's just pure subconscious flow. And that's why it's so important, to keep our souls balanced and expressed, which cannot be done through reason alone.
And Tay, I found your near death experience a fascinating read. You say you were not bothered being propelled towards that wall of fire. I am really just curious about that.
Me too. I've read quite abit about NDE's as well, and my story is inconsistent with the norm. This leads me to believe that my soul was just tired from all the hallucinogenics I was on. The spiritual realm, it seems, is a place for recuperation, a place for spiritual calm. It is also a place of inspiration. Perhaps I wasn't floating towards hell, but I was just offered a vision of this ride in order to wake me up, so to speak. I mean, after the incident, I certainly changed my habits. Like Morpheus says to Neo in the Matrix, the Oracle told me what I needed to hear.
Perhaps we could open a new thread to discuss NDE's?
Absolutely.
when you create any work of art - what is the first impulse behind it?
I used to write a lot of poems when I was younger. It started as a form of personal therapy. Whenever I felt oevrwhelmed, or sad, or depressed, or confused, I would wirte about it. This always helped me organize my thoughts and release the negative energy. I would literally jaust hang my head and exhale in peac afterward.
But music has been without an emotional catalyst. I just love doing it. In fact, when I'm particularly caught up in emotion of any sort, I can't really make music. But I think this is more because I no longer have a keyboard, which is instant gratification. All the stuff I do now is more calculated as I do it with my pc. Thanks for asking this question, because I really need to get a new keyboard.
Peace,
Tay -
Hey bro, the thread is still open. Lengthen away!!!!
OK. But I must re-read all the posts again to find anything new to say -)
Yes. Art is a tool for refining the soul. There is nothing rational or logical about it. It's just pure subconscious flow. And that's why it's so important, to keep our souls balanced and expressed, which cannot be done through reason alone.
Absolutely! Because it's not rational or logical perhaps thats why I am drawn to it. Rational thinking can be very tiring -(
Me too. I've read quite abit about NDE's as well, and my story is inconsistent with the norm. This leads me to believe that my soul was just tired from all the hallucinogenics I was on. The spiritual realm, it seems, is a place for recuperation, a place for spiritual calm. It is also a place of inspiration. Perhaps I wasn't floating towards hell, but I was just offered a vision of this ride in order to wake me up, so to speak. I mean, after the incident, I certainly changed my habits. Like Morpheus says to Neo in the Matrix, the Oracle told me what I needed to hear.
That is very interesting. And the experience has allowed you to transform your life thats just great! Though I do not wish NDE on anyone but it must be a blessing in disguise to have one...?
I used to write a lot of poems when I was younger. It started as a form of personal therapy. Whenever I felt oevrwhelmed, or sad, or depressed, or confused, I would wirte about it. This always helped me organize my thoughts and release the negative energy. I would literally jaust hang my head and exhale in peac afterward.
Me too -) I used to do that a lot and I still write poems as a personal therapy!
But music has been without an emotional catalyst. I just love doing it. In fact, when I'm particularly caught up in emotion of any sort, I can't really make music. But I think this is more because I no longer have a keyboard, which is instant gratification. All the stuff I do now is more calculated as I do it with my pc. Thanks for asking this question, because I really need to get a new keyboard.
I do have a keyboard but I don't play that good! I can only manage simplified version of Beethoven's Moonlight sonata. But I enjoy listening to music a lot but poetry is my main emotional catalyst...poetry and music I find very therapeutic.
Since you mentioned the "Holographic Principle" in a another thread I was intrigued that I searched on the net for further information. And I was amazed to find what is all about! omnijective universe? This is more to the mystical view of the universe! has science finally caught up with Mystics?
I am still reading about this very fascinating topic. Hope to discuss it with you when you are ready to open a thread for this topic -)
Take care.
Regards,
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Peace LoteTree,
I do have a keyboard but I don't play that good! I can only manage simplified version of Beethoven's Moonlight sonata.
To me, the beauty of the keyboard is that you don't need to be an expert. If you have an ear for music, you just hit the notes that sound right and repeat, progress, etc. Especially with arpeggiator functions and such, making music with a good keyboard is just as therapeutic and effective for an amateur as it is for an expert.
Since you mentioned the "Holographic Principle" in a another thread I was intrigued that I searched on the net for further information. And I was amazed to find what is all about! omnijective universe? This is more to the mystical view of the universe! has science finally caught up with Mystics?
I think so. Science is slowly opening it's doors to possibilities other than a linear reality. I think quantum mechanics has a lot to do with this. It requires imagination and creativity to understand quantum theory.
I am still reading about this very fascinating topic. Hope to discuss it with you when you are ready to open a thread for this topic
I'm still reading about it also. But please don't wait for a new thread. Let's discuss!
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Lote
Quote I have enjoyed reading this topic on purgatory, particulary the dialogue between Tay and Khalil. I think they are very interresting insightful.
I feel the same way aobut the posts of yours which I have read, particullarily your thoughts on art and the finite and infinite.
Quote Its pity a that I was not here to participate in it from the begining but I will not lenghthen the thread any longer with further comments apart from that I agree with many points that Khalil and Tay Touched upon.
It's never to late when all we have is eternity! o
Quote But I am happy to find few artistic people here on this forum I just browsed Khalil's work and I think its outstanding! Vangoh is one of my favourite artist too. I would love to hear sample of Tay's music
Thank you for the compliment. And yes Van Gogh is an amazing artist.
Quote It is my view that Art and Religion has always coexisted and played a very important role in our human development. And art will continue to play an important role throughout the future of humanity.
When you think about it nothing really isn't art
Quote One more question I would like to ask both Tay and Khalil is that when you create any work of art - what is the first impulse behind it?
I would say my first impulse is "DRAW!" It's kind of hard to describe because if there isn't an emotional connection to begin with of what I am drawing there is by the time I finish.
In the past I would stop when I didn't feel the peice was evolving at the pace I desire nor turning out as I had willed but now I am much more at ease just watching the picture unfold before my eyes wether it is or isn't what I had desired.
To me drawing is much like a spontaneous revelation, in that I usually never get the end design looking how I thought originally and I am often dumbfounded at the results, think'n "How I do this?"
peace,