Self-Interest & Self-Esteem
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I think a big factor is to be honest, asmuch a we can with ourselves. To fi out our motives. Not he reasons tht we give ourselves to do or ot to do thi or tht, but go head nd really xamie why we wnt his or tht or why we feel like or like that. And try to be just. We do ot want to be fair to others while being unfair o ourelve, nor the other way around. But that tkes a lot of honesty.
Anger, while sometimes being ann immediate way of assuaging our suffering, is ot the best counsellor to tell us what is right or just.
On the other hand, we should love nd have understandign for ourselves. Finally we are a very fine piece of God's creation. I that ennse we should resect and care for ourselve in those aspects tht we think worthwhile. Adn we should understand tht in the measure of our capacity we should do as much for othrs nd respect tht those others alsoo care for thmselves.
As,our friend God logic says it takes a fine job of balancing and striving to improve each in our own way.
Salaam
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Peace all,
I've been thinking...
How absorbed within ourselves are we, really? Can we ever truly be selfless? Can we even have one (selflessness or selfishness) without the other? One could say we could be worldly "selfless" by giving, feeding, caring, and attending to all others - but we could be spiritually "selfish" when it comes to desiring His praise?
Can a balance (between selflessness and selfishness) ever be achieved? Or are we doomed to be either one or the other at any moment in time, or be overtaken by one?
We can be so full of pride over our accomplishments and achievements. Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing?
Is it inherently wrong to want things for the self, to feel good about the self, to want to take credit for what the self has done?
Or is it only wrong when one is stepping on the rights of others?
I ask all this because I've been wondering lately. Pride is considered to be a sin. We're told everything is from God. We're told that God can do whatever He wills. So when He relieves someone of hardship, is it all His doing, and none of our own (4150)? To "take credit" of relieving oneself of the hardship would be a sin, because it was really His doing?
Many people suffer from hardships in life. Many people overcome them. Many people feel good about themselves for overcoming them. They can become so empowered. Should we not? Should we carry on with low self-esteem and not thinking much of ourselves, because in fact we have done nothing? But how long can we do that before mentally destroying ourselves?
Where is the balance?
Peace be with you,
for each are our own deeds, and God knows them all best.
'if anyone does good it is for his own self (nafs)'
doing good, for example charity, or speaking kind words, purifying oneself, and advising righteousness etc, are neither all selfish nor selfless.
they all benefit the self though, as i mentioned earlier.
God has already established the balance.(surah 57)
if we give in charity, seeking only God, then we are doing a good act for ourself, and for others. purifying ourself is good for our self, but it is good for the whole community.
we should never be 'full of pride' in our accomplishments, because what have we achieved?? God created everything in the heavens and the earth, he is justified in being the self exulted. we are however not to exult ourselves, as God exults whomever he wills, of the top of my head, those who strive in his cause.
The problem with pride, or arrogance, exultation, is that it is a form of shirk, as God is the only one with the authority to exult whoever He wills. It transgressess to the point of self worship in many ways, 'look what i did' 'look what i achieved' etc. but we did not, it is the will of God, and his blessing that we are able to do so. Who gave us the means to give in charity? God, who gave us hands to do our work? God. etc. etc
'al-hamd' - The Praise,
'li-LLAH' - for ALLAH
'RABB' - LORD, sustainer, master',
'al-`alaameen' - all that is in the heavens and the earth, and all that is betweenThe Praise is for ALLAH, LORD of the universe
this is the first line of al-fatihah after the bismillah, and the last of the righteous's prayer in paradise. this is one of the most important aspects of islam, and of existance.
as you say, it is all the work of God, so no we should not take credit, that would be us taking the Praise of God to ourselves, and is shirk.
should we take credit because we are healed from some affliction? no, it is all Gods doing. 'if i am touched by some affliction, who can remove it but Him', 'it is He who Heals me when i am sick' He is AS-SALAAM, and if he grants us salaam (wellbeing) then it is his blessing, its His, and not ours.
why do we have low self esteem? what is low self esteem anyway?
if it is feeling like you are not worth much, then God created us, he has honoured us above much of his creatures, and given us from bounty both manifest and hidden, we should feel honoured, and from that we should feel humbled, that God has given us so much, even though we have all transgressed
We should simply be humble, and remember the favour of God, so that we might be happy.
Everything is from God.. take His credit, and He will take anything we had of credit.
Glory be to GOD, LORD of the Universe
The Praise be to GOD, LORD of the UniversePeace be with you, and Gods mercy.
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Peace all,
Peace comrox.
This is part of the test.
As simple as it may seem, there is a fine line between self esteem and arrogance ,between feeling good and "being proud", between feeling bad and "giving up hope"...etc.The second comparison I would agree with you on. The first however, is what I would not. Only because there are two different definitions that come up when we define "proud"
(1) "feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated" - I don't see how this is any different from feeling good.
(2) "having or showing a high or excessively high opinion of oneself or one's importance" - we should avoid putting ourselves under this definition of proud. The first definition sounds fine though.
The balance you mention is so difficult to attain,everyday can be a hard task to "try your best " at getting this right.
God also cites the examples for us in Qoran to teach us that those who claim to be believers will certainly face a lot of obstacles and tests while trying to strive in His cause. Either through tests or Satanic temptations, the ups and downs of our belief is being tracked throughout this journey on earth.
We will certainly put you to the test, in order to distinguish those among you who strive, and steadfastly persevere. We must expose your true qualities.
Beautiful verse!
We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.
......God thus puts you to the test to bring out your true convictions, and to test what is in your hearts. God is fully aware of the innermost thoughts
If we accept that GOD does everything and if we submit to His system, then we try our hardest to follow His rules/instructions.
If any bad happens to us,we should remember GOD and repent /apologise/correct our ways and attitude and thank Him for the blessing in disguise.
If anything good happens to us we should remember GOD and thank him for the blessing.Remaining humble and loyal to GOD Alone is very difficult
I agree it is a hard balance to try and achieve.
May the Lord keep us on His straight path.
GOD bless you.
peace.Thank you, God bless you too. sun
I think a big factor is to be honest, asmuch a we can with ourselves. To fi out our motives. Not he reasons tht we give ourselves to do or ot to do thi or tht, but go head nd really xamie why we wnt his or tht or why we feel like or like that. And try to be just. We do ot want to be fair to others while being unfair o ourelve, nor the other way around. But that tkes a lot of honesty.
Being honest with ourselves is important. Very good advice.
Anger, while sometimes being ann immediate way of assuaging our suffering, is ot the best counsellor to tell us what is right or just.
Can't go overboard with anger though, as I demonstrated in my other thread. But anger can have a balance in of itself.
On the other hand, we should love nd have understandign for ourselves. Finally we are a very fine piece of God's creation. I that ennse we should resect and care for ourselve in those aspects tht we think worthwhile. Adn we should understand tht in the measure of our capacity we should do as much for othrs nd respect tht those others alsoo care for thmselves.
Beautiful words. I agree. handshake group
Peace be with you,
for each are our own deeds, and God knows them all best.
'if anyone does good it is for his own self (nafs)'
doing good, for example charity, or speaking kind words, purifying oneself, and advising righteousness etc, are neither all selfish nor selfless.
they all benefit the self though, as i mentioned earlier.
God has already established the balance.(surah 57)
if we give in charity, seeking only God, then we are doing a good act for ourself, and for others. purifying ourself is good for our self, but it is good for the whole community.
we should never be 'full of pride' in our accomplishments, because what have we achieved?? God created everything in the heavens and the earth, he is justified in being the self exulted. we are however not to exult ourselves, as God exults whomever he wills, of the top of my head, those who strive in his cause.
The problem with pride, or arrogance, exultation, is that it is a form of shirk, as God is the only one with the authority to exult whoever He wills. It transgressess to the point of self worship in many ways, 'look what i did' 'look what i achieved' etc. but we did not, it is the will of God, and his blessing that we are able to do so. Who gave us the means to give in charity? God, who gave us hands to do our work? God. etc. etc
I think the above is where my difficulties are.
Often times we only see things from our own worldly perspectives. If I've done something, and I haven't felt any divine/spiritual influence or impact in making and carrying out that decision, then why should I - or anyone else - attribute it directly and solely to Him? If He is intervening in these matters, and constantly intervening in them, then how does this not contradict with our own free will and ability to choose? How does this not contradict with 1311, which states that He does not change us until we change ourselves?
I've seen people get severely irritated by, for example, watching a person's reaction to a doctor after the doctor has helped said patient see again. I watched a video once where a lot of doctors were helping poor patients restore their eyesight, for free. When their patients could see again, they did not thank the doctors. Not once, not at all. They didn't even acknowledge them. They thanked God. Commentators were annoyed because they felt that the credit wasn't given where it was due, that God did nothing. Attributing it to God and not saying a word of praise towards the doctors was being ungrateful to those who had actually healed them, and undermining their works.
'al-hamd' - The Praise,
'li-LLAH' - for ALLAH
'RABB' - LORD, sustainer, master',
'al-`alaameen' - all that is in the heavens and the earth, and all that is betweenThe Praise is for ALLAH, LORD of the universe
this is the first line of al-fatihah after the bismillah, and the last of the righteous's prayer in paradise. this is one of the most important aspects of islam, and of existance.
as you say, it is all the work of God, so no we should not take credit, that would be us taking the Praise of God to ourselves, and is shirk.
should we take credit because we are healed from some affliction? no, it is all Gods doing. 'if i am touched by some affliction, who can remove it but Him', 'it is He who Heals me when i am sick' He is AS-SALAAM, and if he grants us salaam (wellbeing) then it is his blessing, its His, and not ours.
why do we have low self esteem? what is low self esteem anyway?
People have low self-esteem because they don't feel they have any worth. They don't feel they are pretty, handsome, smart, can accomplish anything in life, etc. Having really low self-esteem can be a sign of severe depression, which can lead to much decreased productivity, harming oneself (or others), and suicide - so thoughts of low self-esteem should be avoided at all costs.
if it is feeling like you are not worth much, then God created us, he has honoured us above much of his creatures, and given us from bounty both manifest and hidden, we should feel honoured, and from that we should feel humbled, that God has given us so much, even though we have all transgressed
The above paragraph helps a bit.
We should simply be humble, and remember the favour of God, so that we might be happy.
Everything is from God.. take His credit, and He will take anything we had of credit.
Glory be to GOD, LORD of the Universe
The Praise be to GOD, LORD of the UniversePeace be with you, and Gods mercy.
Peace be with you too, and glory be to Him!
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Looking at 4150 again, it mentions a kafir. Accepting the translation of rejecter is troublesome to me in this context because of what I've said above. But translating as the one who covers/hides/conceals makes more sense in the context, as the person is covering the facts that
(1) there was divine influence involved
(2) the Hour will come
(3) he will not receive good in the hereafterAdditional thoughts on (1) - Is this an isolated incident? I suppose it's impossible to verify if the person themselves felt that there was any influence. If God intended them to have felt any influence (so they were supposed to feel something), I wonder how this would have changed things? But perhaps God's intentions of knowing His influence should be implied from the verse. I would also want to know if he/she (the person who was inflicted with the hardship in the first place) had done anything particularly special that would lead him to think it was all his own doing, or not. But, if he was concealing that there was divine influence involved, then it would have had to be obvious enough?
Additional thoughts on (3) - Would he not receive good in the hereafter because of this one incident? That doesn't make sense does it, although to me the verse presents itself that way. Would this have to be a reoccurring incident? If this person does not receive good in the hereafter because of this one act of ungratefulness to God (maybe he's grateful for his own abilities, how far he's come, other people in his life who have helped him*, etc.), how is that Just?
Should we take this statement that this man is automatically assuming he will receive good in the hereafter as that we should definitely know when we do these acts that we won't have good in the hereafter, or rather that we simply cannot know, either way, what is waiting for us in the hereafter?
Looking further, 4151 (the following verse) has to be accounted for as well. It sounds like this man wants God's help, and asks for it when he is in despair, but he will attribute to himself when he is doing better?
- Given that God encompasses all things (4154), could God have been speaking to and blessing this person through another person?
Ugh this is probably bugging me much more than it should, but I can't help myself. I can't tell if I'm helping or hurting my own thinking now.
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How absorbed within ourselves are we, really? Can we ever truly be selfless? Can we even have one (selflessness or selfishness) without the other? One could say we could be worldly "selfless" by giving, feeding, caring, and attending to all others - but we could be spiritually "selfish" when it comes to desiring His praise?
The aim is not to be 'selfless'...
The aim is to be "selfish" with many "self" as much as possible..In similitude..
The aim is not to be blind..
The aim is to be able to see from many point of view / angle, as much as possible..This is among the "lessons" or "revelation" that I got from eastern teachings (Taoism, Buddhism)
The Tao is infinite, eternal. Why is it eternal? It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings. The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled.
-- TTC 7Can a balance (between selflessness and selfishness) ever be achieved? Or are we doomed to be either one or the other at any moment in time, or be overtaken by one?
See above..
We can be so full of pride over our accomplishments and achievements. Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Is it inherently wrong to want things for the self, to feel good about the self, to want to take credit for what the self has done?
I try to avoid seeing things as either Good or Bad.. because it depends..
Pride can lead to disappointment, restlessness and anger..
Pride is caused by lack of self-confidence.. the needs to be recognized or viewed as something by others..The Master does his job and then stops. He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes against the current of the Tao. Because he believes in himself, he doesn't try to convince others. Because he is content with himself, he doesn't need others' approval. Because he accepts himself, the whole world accepts him.
-- TTC 30"I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me."
-- Abe LincolnOr is it only wrong when one is stepping on the rights of others?
What do you think?
See things from the perspective of "others"..
Feel their 'selves' as your own 'self'...The easiest way to start is by identifying yourselves also with their 'identity'...
Do you think the oppression towards Shiites is justified?
Identify yourselves with Shiite.. and see the Shiites as among yourselves..
Then replace the "Shiites" with any identity.. (Christians, Jews, Immigrants, Mexicans, The West, Chinese, or even the name of the people that you hate or your ex boyfriend / girlfriend, ex husband, ex wives, Jim, Bob, Lee, Akhmed, Michelle, Fatima etc..)Many people suffer from hardships in life. Many people overcome them. Many people feel good about themselves for overcoming them. They can become so empowered. Should we not? Should we carry on with low self-esteem and not thinking much of ourselves, because in fact we have done nothing? But how long can we do that before mentally destroying ourselves?
Lack of Pride doesn't equals to low self esteem.. infact; Pride IS CAUSED by low self esteem..
To counter the low self esteem.. the self responded with Proud attitude shown to others / external world..Salam
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Peace Comrox,
I agree with Jafar's words of wisdom.
I think your statements in your opening post indicate that you might still consider yourself separate from other-selves in actual reality. Most of us are hypnotized by the matrix and still haven't grasped the reality that we are all One. 2115 indicates that the Creator is infinite, and if that is true then by definition we are all parts of the infinite Creator and there is no difference between our-self and other-selves in reality. Not only that but the Grand Unified Theory and the sub quantum string theory are also pointing in this direction. We all are physical 3rd dimensional manifestations of a tiny portion of the same Infinite Intelligent Energy. E = m x c squared.
It is only this 3rd density temporary illusion of separateness and the veil of forgetfulness (7172) that cause us to distinguish between our-self and other-selves and the infinite Creator as if we are all separate, and that illusion of separateness will obviously lead to the points raised by you. All your confusion and the issues raised by you in your opening post will vanish once you realize that we are all One in reality. When you help others you are actually helping yourself and when you harm others you are actually harming yourself.
Put something to block your palm from view so that you can only see the 4 fingers. You will think that the 4 fingers are all separate and not part of the same body. Now remove the object blocking your palm and you will see the reality, that all 4 fingers are actually part of the same body. Until you grasp the reality of who you are, and the reality of what everyone and everything surrounding you is, you will continue to have this confusion.
Peace
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Comrox, do these questions bother you a lot when you are on your way to dealing with the things of the world? ;D They are actually now always in my head. Hence, the question.
I agree with GL's
This is part of the test.
As simple as it may seem, there is a fine line between self esteem and arrogance ,between feeling good and "being proud", between feeling bad and "giving up hope"...etc.
The balance you mention is so difficult to attain,everyday can be a hard task to "try your best " at getting this right.A little about
but we could be spiritually "selfish" when it comes to desiring His praise?
What I have understood so far is that God wants us to do things without the desire for his praise/rewards. It is all about cleansing. I mean something good must be done from the heart because
(The) Day not will benefit wealth and not sons,
Except (he) who comes (to) Allah with a heart sound."2688-89We can be so full of pride over our accomplishments and achievements. Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing?
I myself get sensitive each time I sense pride in my words. I now try to calm it as much as I can because I know I am like an ant in front of the lord of the worlds. But yeah, sometimes we humans have no control over it and some may think we are proud even when we are quiet.
Did you get to look into the concept "pride/arrogance without right" found in some verses of the Quran? This one is quite interesting. I haven't started focusing on it just yet.
Is it inherently wrong to want things for the self, to feel good about the self, to want to take credit for what the self has done?
No not at all. Layth has an article about prayers going unanswered. He did an excellent job of showing in it that there is nothing wrong in wanting things and feeling good about the self http//www.free-minds.org/why-are-prayers-unanswered
Taking credit can be done in humble way by reminding ourselves that at the end of the day the achievement was made possible by God.Many people suffer from hardships in life. Many people overcome them. Many people feel good about themselves for overcoming them. They can become so empowered. Should we not? Should we carry on with low self-esteem and not thinking much of ourselves, because in fact we have done nothing? But how long can we do that before mentally destroying ourselves?
Not taking credit and feeling good about achievements has nothing to do with low self-esteem. If you watch some interviews of the top entrepreneurs (even the ones who sold their souls to the devil) you will notice that they never take the entire credit for whatever they achieve. They hardly ever call themselves genius.
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Peace all!
You pose an interesting proposition, Comrox.
Am I correct in understanding your proposition as being selflessness taking the guise of acts that benefit others to the exclusion of one's self, and in so doing, one is ultimately acting in a selfish manner with the objective of gaining the favour of God to the exclusion of others?
If I am correct in this understanding, then my view affirms your proposition.
We read in the Quran many instances of God commending the believers who vie with one another in righteousness and who seek God's favour through acts of selflessness.
As such, the manifestation of selflessness in this world manifests only with the purpose of improving one's own favour with God in the Hereafter, to the exclusion of all others.
For, as the case shall be on the Day of Requital, "And each of them shall come unto Him on the Day of Resurrection singly." (1995)
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i realise one thing , whenever we achieve something we think its due to our quality we make it.. infact all is planned by God?
and then we stuck in somewhere we again go back to almiighty ? as soon we come out from that problem we again start thinking negetive.. thats why in some cases there is a defeat after every success..
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i realise one thing , whenever we achieve something we think its due to our quality we make it.. infact all is planned by God?
and then we stuck in somewhere we again go back to almiighty ? as soon we come out from that problem we again start thinking negetive.. thats why in some cases there is a defeat after every success..
Peace,
yes often i think when we have something good, or we achieve, we give credit to ourselves, or become less humble, and when we are in hardship, or fail, he give the credit to God, and blame him..This is something i am learning at the moment, being without any money or food, and totaly reliant on God, that when 'i succeed' (when God, by his mercy gives me some provision) Then my thoughts become less pure afterwards, and pondering this, i remembered 'If God was to increase the provision for the people then they would transgress against truth' or similar.
for example, I was hungry last night, so i thought in my 'great mind' that i would go find the beach where some rocks are, and gather some provision like shellfish, or starfish etc, as my Lord had provided me with a cooking pot i asked for the day before, for that purpose. It was a big walk, up and over this hill, and down to the beach from where i was, so i was like 'please Lord dont let me do all this in vain', and even being tempted to steal food. anyway i made a big deal about it to God, and i enventualy commited to 'well prehaps my Lord will not give me the seafood, as a test, but i am sure he will provide me some other way', well this is exactly what happened. i ended up not being able to find the rocks from up this hill, and getting lost on the other side trying to find the way to the beach, but God provided for me some chips, but after that, i noticed that my thoughts started becoming less humble, and when i eventualy got back to town i had humbled myself somewhat again and as i was still quite hungry, i followed a way untill i found some more provision, some beautifull oranges, exactly what i had asked for, something sweet, but after that again my thought started becoming vainer and less humble, even to the point i had the thought 'oh Lord give me much more than this!' so i remembered that verse, Alhamdullilah, about God increasing provision, and us transgressing, so I said 'Lord just give me little, just what you will, enough to get by, lest i become too arrogant'. Well i was satisfied after that, so i went to find shelter and sleep, but i woke up cold, and when i got up, my ankle was so painfull i could hardly walk at all, and i was comming up to a gas station and crying out 'of Lord please help me, please grant me some a pie, if you dont Lord, i dont know what im going to do, i am so in need', so i went in and asked if they had any old pies they were throwing out for charity, and they said 'yes i actualy have a whole sack full'.. alhamdullilah, that was certainly a great test, i hope my lord has mercy, after that i conceeded that 'If you are going to give me a great provision or make me rich Lord, just please help me to use it in your cause'..
anyway hopefully someone gets some example from my experience, the Point i was pointing to is that, Often when we succeed, or percieve we succeed, when realy it is just the will of God, we become less humble, even arrogant, sometimes to the point of transgression, and when we percieve we fail, we complain, and turn to despair, or become saddened, or even have anti-self thought like 'oh what am i, im hopeless' or things like that.
We must all remember this is just a test, that things are not from us, they are to us, and to see what we will do with them, because when we realize who we actualy are, just a soul undergoing a test, and just a soul to be held accountable for what it did, we become content, God willing, with our self, because, all theese things we used to attribute to ourselves, like our successess or failiures etc, were never ours to begin with, or our strengths and weaknesses etc, they are just what God had decreed, a test to see what we will do.
We are all on our own journeys, and we are all going through our own tests, but we all need to just ask God to remember Him, because;
'Surely, in remembering God, does ones heart find rest'
That is the key to self-esteem, in terms of feeling at peace, i believe, as it has helped me much through alot, i used to have very low self-esteem, even to the point of being suicidal, depressed etc before God turned my heart to Him, but when we remember Him, and the more we do, the more we remember ourselves, and who we are, the nature of the world etc..
Peace, and Gods mercy and blessings be with you all.
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Peace,
yes often i think when we have something good, or we achieve, we give credit to ourselves, or become less humble, and when we are in hardship, or fail, he give the credit to God, and blame him..This is something i am learning at the moment, being without any money or food, and totaly reliant on God, that when 'i succeed' (when God, by his mercy gives me some provision) Then my thoughts become less pure afterwards, and pondering this, i remembered 'If God was to increase the provision for the people then they would transgress against truth' or similar.
this life is a test and body is our load in this journey .. this is a big load if we think. due to this load we rob steal and commmit sex.. due to this load we get afraid of cold hot shelter. due to this load we get afraid of future ,, think for a while if we dnt have body at the first instant noboyd will kill no body, nobody need to rob nobody. there was no disputes regarding land .. how easy the life would be just imagine..
our real self is beyond the need of body we are in illusion like matrix, gravity locked with future and present ,
glass cannot be unbroken once you drop it..we are in loss... and then i remmeber this small chapter...
1031 CONSIDER the flight of time!
1032 The human is indeed in loss.
1033 Except those who believe, and do good works, and support one another with the truth, and support one another with perseverance.peace
God bless you -
this life is a test and body is our load in this journey .. this is a big load if we think. due to this load we rob steal and commmit sex.. due to this load we get afraid of cold hot shelter. due to this load we get afraid of future ,, think for a while if we dnt have body at the first instant noboyd will kill no body, nobody need to rob nobody. there was no disputes regarding land .. how easy the life would be just imagine..
our real self is beyond the need of body we are in illusion like matrix, gravity locked with future and present ,
glass cannot be unbroken once you drop it..we are in loss... and then i remmeber this small chapter...
1031 CONSIDER the flight of time!
1032 The human is indeed in loss.
1033 Except those who believe, and do good works, and support one another with the truth, and support one another with perseverance.peace
God bless youPeace, and God bless you, You certainly have a good point there, not much i can add to that
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Peace all,
I apologize; I've been busy.
The aim is not to be 'selfless'...
The aim is to be "selfish" with many "self" as much as possible..In similitude..
The aim is not to be blind..
The aim is to be able to see from many point of view / angle, as much as possible..This is among the "lessons" or "revelation" that I got from eastern teachings (Taoism, Buddhism)
The Tao is infinite, eternal. Why is it eternal? It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings. The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled.
-- TTC 7That quote... such amazing insight.
See above..
I try to avoid seeing things as either Good or Bad.. because it depends..
Pride can lead to disappointment, restlessness and anger..
Pride is caused by lack of self-confidence.. the needs to be recognized or viewed as something by others..The Master does his job and then stops. He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes against the current of the Tao. Because he believes in himself, he doesn't try to convince others. Because he is content with himself, he doesn't need others' approval. Because he accepts himself, the whole world accepts him.
-- TTC 30"I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me."
-- Abe LincolnWhat do you think?
See things from the perspective of "others"..
Feel their 'selves' as your own 'self'...The easiest way to start is by identifying yourselves also with their 'identity'...
Do you think the oppression towards Shiites is justified?
Identify yourselves with Shiite.. and see the Shiites as among yourselves..
Then replace the "Shiites" with any identity.. (Christians, Jews, Immigrants, Mexicans, The West, Chinese, or even the name of the people that you hate or your ex boyfriend / girlfriend, ex husband, ex wives, Jim, Bob, Lee, Akhmed, Michelle, Fatima etc..)Beautiful and insightful words. Thanks; I'll try to apply this to my own life. )
Would you agree with the following quotation from Anna Deavere Smith? Real self-esteem is an integration of an inner value with things in the world around you.
Lack of Pride doesn't equals to low self esteem.. infact; Pride IS CAUSED by low self esteem..
To counter the low self esteem.. the self responded with Proud attitude shown to others / external world..Salam
I'm not sure this is entirely true for all people. If extremely low self esteem turns into depression, many (but not all) people choose to display themselves proudly to others. A lot hide.
Peace Comrox,
I agree with Jafar's words of wisdom.
I think your statements in your opening post indicate that you might still consider yourself separate from other-selves in actual reality. Most of us are hypnotized by the matrix and still haven't grasped the reality that we are all One. 2115 indicates that the Creator is infinite, and if that is true then by definition we are all parts of the infinite Creator and there is no difference between our-self and other-selves in reality. Not only that but the Grand Unified Theory and the sub quantum string theory are also pointing in this direction. We all are physical 3rd dimensional manifestations of a tiny portion of the same Infinite Intelligent Energy. E = m x c squared.
It is only this 3rd density temporary illusion of separateness and the veil of forgetfulness (7172) that cause us to distinguish between our-self and other-selves and the infinite Creator as if we are all separate, and that illusion of separateness will obviously lead to the points raised by you. All your confusion and the issues raised by you in your opening post will vanish once you realize that we are all One in reality. When you help others you are actually helping yourself and when you harm others you are actually harming yourself.
Put something to block your palm from view so that you can only see the 4 fingers. You will think that the 4 fingers are all separate and not part of the same body. Now remove the object blocking your palm and you will see the reality, that all 4 fingers are actually part of the same body. Until you grasp the reality of who you are, and the reality of what everyone and everything surrounding you is, you will continue to have this confusion.
Peace
I imagine you would agree with the following material, which you may remember ()
15.12 Questioner How does an individual go about balancing himself? What is the first step?
Ra I am Ra. The steps are only one; that is, an understanding of the energy centers which make up the mind/body/spirit complex. This understanding may be briefly summarized as follows. The first balancing is of the Malkuth, or Earth, vibratory energy complex, called the red-ray complex. An understanding and acceptance of this energy is fundamental. The next energy complex, which may be blocked is the emotional, or personal complex, also known as the orange-ray complex. This blockage will often demonstrate itself as personal eccentricities or distortions with regard to self-conscious understanding or acceptance of self.
The third blockage resembles most closely that which you have called ego. It is the yellow-ray or solar plexus center. Blockages in this center will often manifest as distortions towards power manipulation and other social behaviors concerning those close and those associated with the mind/body/spirit complex. Those with blockages in these first three energy centers, or nexi, will have continuing difficulties in ability to further their seeking of the Law of One.
source http//www.lawofone.info/results.php?q=pride+ego&sc=1
Comrox, do these questions bother you a lot when you are on your way to dealing with the things of the world? ;D They are actually now always in my head. Hence, the question.
I think a lot; that's part of my problem. I think and I think and sometimes I find myself in a Qur'anic or philosophy "rut," which I can't seem to think or reason my way out of by myself.
I think this whole matter (selflessness vs. selfishness) can be (not always of course) a very fine line.
I also know a lot of this questioning has come from my own experiences in life. As I mentioned several months ago in another thread, I spent some time mid teenager years suffering from severe depression. I have been proud of myself because of all I was able to accomplish going through that experience and coming out of it with the help of family and friends, and but mostly through a lot of my own self-realization.
So when I read verses in Qur'an about how all good is from Him and how He relieves hardship and we should not say as humans that it our own doing, I'm confused. I feel like I'm supposed to be made to think like I'm wrong. I feel like He is saying to me, "No, you don't deserve that credit, that was what I did - Now let me take that from you." Not only that, but by attributing what appears to be my good works to myself instead of Him, I deserve punishment? I just don't get it.
I agree with GL's
A little aboutWhat I have understood so far is that God wants us to do things without the desire for his praise/rewards. It is all about cleansing. I mean something good must be done from the heart because(The) Day not will benefit wealth and not sons,
Except (he) who comes (to) Allah with a heart sound."2688-89
I myself get sensitive each time I sense pride in my words. I now try to calm it as much as I can because I know I am like an ant in front of the lord of the worlds. But yeah, sometimes we humans have no control over it and some may think we are proud even when we are quiet.Exactly, your last sentence is why I believe it can be a very fine line, which is what makes it so dangerous and what makes concepts of punishment because of this sound dangerous.
Did you get to look into the concept "pride/arrogance without right" found in some verses of the Quran? This one is quite interesting. I haven't started focusing on it just yet.
I don't have too much time right now, but as a starting point, I'll list all verses that I've found "pride" or "arrogance" within, to reference back to if I have the time to look into this subject more (this is just a quick list so I could be missing some - EDIT this turned into a much longer project than I anticipated, haha)
Defining Pride
(a) a feeling that you respect yourself and deserve to be respected by other people
(b) a feeling that you are more important or better than other people (source)Pride/Being Proud (Negative Connotation)
And if he is told "Be aware of God," his pride leads him to more sin. Hell shall be sufficient for him; what a miserable abode!
The Messiah is not too proud to be a servant to God, nor are the angels who are close to Him. Whoever is too proud from His service, and is arrogant, then He will gather them all towards Him together.
As for those who believe and do good works, He will give them their recompense and increase for them from His bounty. And as for those who are too proud and arrogant, He will punish them a painful retribution, and they will not find besides God any supporter or victor.
Those who are at your Lord, they are never too proud to serve Him, and they glorify Him, and to Him they yield.
And to Him is whoever is in the heavens and on the earth. And those who are near Him are not too proud to serve Him, nor do they complain.
You were too proud from it, talking evil about it; and you defiantly disregarded it.
Indeed, those who have disbelieved are in false pride and defiance.
In order that you do not despair over anything that has passed you by, nor be happy of anything He has bestowed upon you. God does not love those who are boastful, proud.*
And if they are told "Come and let the messenger of God ask for your forgiveness," they turn aside their heads, and you see them walking away in pride.- This verse, 5723, sounds very confusing to me, the way it is being translated...
From what I understand of the above
(a) Pride is something that the prophets and messengers of God do not possess (one cannot have pride while in service to God)
(b) Pride leads to sin (as per 2205, one who has gained power will seek to corrupt the earth, destroy crops, and destroy people. A question to ask here Does pride come before gaining power, or after?)
(c) God does not love those who are proud
(d) Pride and arrogance will cause a person to be gathered together with all those like him in front of God
(e) Too much pride and arrogance will cause a person to be punished
(f) A person who is too proud is defiant; they will reject revelation and talk evil about it; to be proud is a quality of a kafir
(g) A prideful person may not be good enough for anyone, given that they would not allow the messenger of God to ask for forgiveness on their behalfI see that both being "proud" and being "too proud" is understood negatively in these verses. That being said, it does seem that there is a distinction made. Being too proud is worse and has more severe consequences than simply being proud.
Pride/Being Proud (Positive Connotation)
O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
From what I understand of the above
(a) Expressing pride is permissible only when we are certain that we are on God's path. Such pride must only be expressed towards another person or group of people who are already acting proudly in their ways towards us.
Defining Arrogance
(a) having or showing the insulting attitude of people who believe that they are better, smarter, or more important than other people (source)
Arrogance/Being Arrogant (Negative Connotation)
And We gave Moses the Book, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, the clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill!
That is because they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant by what they invented in their system.
And serve God and do not set up anything with Him, and do good to the parents, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the neighbor who is a relative, and the neighbor nearby, and the friend nearby, and the wayfarer, and those committed to by your oath. God does not love the arrogant, the boastful.
He said "Descend from it, for it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced."
Those who have denied Our revelations, and became arrogant towards them, the gates of the heavens will not open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the eye of a needle. It is such that We recompense the criminals.
The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from among them "How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?" They said "It is in that which he has been sent that we believe."
Those who were arrogant said "In that which you believe, we reject!"
And the leaders who became arrogant from among his people said "We will drive you out of our town Shu'ayb, along with those who have believed with you, or you shall return to our creed!" He said "Will you force us?"
I will turn away from My revelations those who are arrogant on the earth without right, and if they see every sign they do not believe in it, and if they see the path of guidance they do not take it as a path; and if they see the path of mischief, they take it as a path. That is because they have denied Our revelations and were heedless of them.
Your god is One god. Those who do not believe in the Hereafter, their hearts are denying, and they are arrogant.
Certainly, God knows what they hide and what they reveal. He does not like the arrogant.
And do not walk in the land arrogantly, for you will not penetrate the earth, nor will you reach the mountains in height.
To Pharaoh and his commanders. But they became arrogant, for they were a high and mighty people.
And they rejected them, while their souls knew, out of transgression and arrogance. So see how it ended for the wicked.
"'Do not be arrogant towards me and come to me as submitters'"
And he and his soldiers were arrogant in the land without any right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us.
And Qaroon, and Pharaoh, and Haamaan; Moses went to them with clear proofs. But they became arrogant in the land, and they were not the first.
"And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For God does not love the arrogant show off."
O people, you shall reverence your Lord, and be concerned of a Day when a father cannot help his child, nor can a child help his father. Certainly, the promise of God is truth. Therefore, do not be deceived by this worldly life; and do not be deceived from God by arrogance.
Say "Do you see the partners whom you have called on besides God? Show me what they have created on the earth. Or do they possess any partnership in the heavens? Or have We given them a book wherein they are taking knowledge from it? Indeed, what the transgressors promise one another is no more than arrogance."
Arrogance on the earth, and evil scheming. And the evil schemes only backfire on those who scheme them. Were they expecting anything different from the ways used on the people of the past? You will not find any change in the way of God, and you will not find any bypass to the way of God.
When it was said to them "There is no god except God," they would be arrogant.
Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters.
And on the Day of Resurrection you will see those who lied about God, their faces will be darkened. Is there not an abode in Hell for the arrogant ones?
Those who dispute about the revelations of God without any authority that has come to them, it is greatly abhorred with God and with those who believe. God thus seals the hearts of every arrogant tyrant.*
And when they argue in Hell, the weak will say to those who were arrogant "We used to be your followers, can you take from us any portion of the Fire?"
Those who were arrogant will say "We are all in it together, for God has passed judgement upon the servants."
Surely, those who dispute about the revelations of God without any authority given to them, there is nothing except arrogance in their chests, which they do not perceive. Therefore, seek refuge with God; He is the Hearer, the Seer.
Enter the gates of Hell, abiding therein. What a miserable abode for the arrogant ones.
As for 'Aad, they turned arrogant on the earth, without any right, and they said "Who is mightier than us in strength?" Did they not see that God, who has created them, was mightier than they in strength? And they were denying Our revelations.
Say "Do you see that if it were from God, and you rejected it, and a witness from the Children of Israel bore witness to its similarity, and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant? Surely, God does not guide the wicked people."
And on the Day when those who disbelieved will be displayed to the Fire "You have wasted the good things given to you during your worldly life, and you took pleasure in it. Consequently, today you will be recompensed with a shameful retribution for your arrogance in the land without any right, and for what wickedness you were in."
They will call upon them "Were we not with you?" They will reply "Yes, but you led yourselves into temptation, and you hesitated, and doubted, and became misled by wishful thinking, until the judgement of God came. You were diverted from God by arrogance."
"And every time I called on them so that You may forgive them, they put their fingers in their ears and they covered their heads with their outer garments and they insisted, and they became greatly arrogant."- I'm confused about why dispute over revelation (in 4035) is particularly bad... Isn't that what we do here on this forum?
From what I understand of the above
(a) God does not like or love the arrogant; those who show off
(b) Arrogance deceives one from God; they have their hearts sealed
(c) Arrogant people dont perceive their own arrogance
(d) Arrogance is what caused Satan to be banished and despised by God
(e) Arrogant people reject the revelations (they think they are above them as per 2714)
(f) Arrogant people will not go to Heaven until the impossible is achieved (a camel passing through the eye of a needle in 740)
(g) Arrogant people are disrespectful, scheming, evil criminals
(h) Arrogant people have wasted the good things that were given to them in this life
(i) Those who have wronged themselves have promised each other no more than arrogance/delusion; their schemes will backfire on each other
(j) Arrogant people have reacted with denial or violence (murder) when they receive news (revelation) that they do not like
(k) Other arrogant people have threatened the believers to re-accept their creed, else they (the believers) will be driven out
(l) Leaders and tyrants may be more prone to arrogance than other types of people
(m) The arrogant have followers, and they and their followers will be all arguing in Hell
(n) The arrogant invent lies about Gods system (particularly lies that will benefit themselves only? - thinking that the Fire will only touch them temporarily in 324)
(o) The arrogant dispute about Gods revelations without any authority
(p) Arrogant people do not believe in the Hereafter
(q) Arrogant people do not believe that they will be returned to God
(r) Arrogant people think they can do anything (ranging from penetrating the earth to reaching the mountains in height, in 1737, and having the most strength in 4115)
(s) Arrogant people do not seek Gods forgivenessTo be arrogant is much, much worse than to be proud.
Arrogance/Being Arrogant (Positive Connotation)
None that I could find.
No not at all. Layth has an article about prayers going unanswered. He did an excellent job of showing in it that there is nothing wrong in wanting things and feeling good about the self http//www.free-minds.org/why-are-prayers-unanswered
Taking credit can be done in humble way by reminding ourselves that at the end of the day the achievement was made possible by God.I'll take a look at that article. )
Not taking credit and feeling good about achievements has nothing to do with low self-esteem. If you watch some interviews of the top entrepreneurs (even the ones who sold their souls to the devil) you will notice that they never take the entire credit for whatever they achieve. They hardly ever call themselves genius.
As I basically said earlier to Jafar, I think it depends on the person and situation, really. Some people do become depressed because they feel like they are not good enough, either academically or professionally. So their achievements, either good or bad, have an effect on their self-esteem, good or bad.
If I am misunderstanding you, please clarify. )
Peace all!
You pose an interesting proposition, Comrox.
Am I correct in understanding your proposition as being selflessness taking the guise of acts that benefit others to the exclusion of one's self, and in so doing, one is ultimately acting in a selfish manner with the objective of gaining the favour of God to the exclusion of others?
If I am correct in this understanding, then my view affirms your proposition.
We read in the Quran many instances of God commending the believers who vie with one another in righteousness and who seek God's favour through acts of selflessness.
As such, the manifestation of selflessness in this world manifests only with the purpose of improving one's own favour with God in the Hereafter, to the exclusion of all others.
For, as the case shall be on the Day of Requital, "And each of them shall come unto Him on the Day of Resurrection singly." (1995)
You are correct. ) Thanks for your contribution and inclusion of that verse.
That is the key to self-esteem, in terms of feeling at peace, i believe, as it has helped me much through alot, i used to have very low self-esteem, even to the point of being suicidal, depressed etc before God turned my heart to Him, but when we remember Him, and the more we do, the more we remember ourselves, and who we are, the nature of the world etc..
I suppose it may depend on how each one of us would individually define "remembrance of God."
Would it work for everyone though? I'm not sure.
I leave you all with a quotation from Bruce Lee I came across a few days ago that has left me pondering
"Pride is a sense of worth derived from something that is not part of us, while self-esteem derives from the potentialities and achievements of self. We are proud when we identify ourselves with an imaginary self, a leader, a holy cause, a collective body of possessions. There is fear and intolerance in pride; it is insensitive and uncompromising. The less promise and potency in the self, the more imperative is the need for pride. The core of pride is self-rejection. Action is a high road to self-confidence and esteem. Where it is open, all energies flow toward it. It comes readily to most people and its rewards are tangible. The maintenance of self-esteem is a continuous task that taxes all of the individuals power and inner resources. We have to prove our worth and justify our existence anew each day. When, for whatever reason, self-esteem is unattainable, the autonomous individual becomes a highly explosive entity. He turns away from an unpromising self and plunges into the pursuit of pride the explosive substitute for self-esteem. All social disturbances and upheavals have their roots in a crisis of individual self-esteem, and the great endeavors in which the masses most readily unite basically a search for pride." (source)
Thanks to all. peace
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peace comrox,
alhamdullilah, good work, i yhink we should look into the arabic definitions of pride and arrogance because there is interpretation misunderstanding when going from AR to EN, If God willed i might look into it tommorow or when i can use my laptop.
peace, good discussion here.
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Peace Timotheus,
peace comrox,
alhamdullilah, good work, i yhink we should look into the arabic definitions of pride and arrogance because there is interpretation misunderstanding when going from AR to EN, If God willed i might look into it tommorow or when i can use my laptop.
peace, good discussion here.
Of course. Tomorrow or the next day I hope to post the Arabic Insha'Allah.
Also, does anyone have any insights into 5723?
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Peace Timotheus,
Of course. Tomorrow or the next day I hope to post the Arabic Insha'Allah.
Also, does anyone have any insights into 5723?
i think its about winning and losing.. anything game, money, relations,, overall everything
if we lose something instead of regret we should thank. and understand at first we bring nothing by our own..
in case of getting something or winning we usually get excited so much in some cases when we win some game we cheers and we did not realise what our boostful or proud actions will affect the loser..this book got lot of messages if we understand it.. deeply
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i think its about winning and losing.. anything game, money, relations,, overall everything
if we lose something instead of regret we should thank. and understand at first we bring nothing by our own..
in case of getting something or winning we usually get excited so much in some cases when we win some game we cheers and we did not realise what our boostful or proud actions will affect the loser..this book got lot of messages if we understand it.. deeply
Yes, I suppose this verse (5723) could simply be a warning for us to regulate/stabilize our emotions, because it's all going to happen (or not happen) anyway.
If we add what I imagine truthseeker11 would think of this verse, then taking both 5722 (about the Record) and 5723 into account, we should not either despair or be happy BECAUSE we should recognize that we have already chosen this life and decided on these choices for ourselves, and understand that this is a process that we must go through for the sake of our own spiritual development.
Any insights into 4035? What's the "authority" that has to come for us to dispute/argue about revelations/signs?
authority = sul'nin - Root sn lm
prevailed/overcame/predominated, firm/established in superior power/force, strength, possess power of dominion/sovereignty/rule/authority, sharp/eloquent, miracle
Maybe we have to overcome something in order to dispute/argue about His revelations/signs? (Overcome hadith maybe? P ;D)
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Peace all,
I apologize; I've been busy.
That quote... such amazing insight.
Beautiful and insightful words. Thanks; I'll try to apply this to my own life. )
Indeed it is.. unfortunately none of those insight are the "words of God" (or believed to be so)...
Would you agree with the following quotation from Anna Deavere Smith? ?Real self-esteem is an integration of an inner value with things in the world around you.?
Yes, in short terms, Acceptance.. which is actually the meanings of the word islam is all about (Not Islam The Religion though)..
I'm not sure this is entirely true for all people. If extremely low self esteem turns into depression, many (but not all) people choose to display themselves proudly to others. A lot hide.
They hide only from those who they see as superior compared to themselves..
Yet once they see those who they see as inferior / weak, they will display themselves proudly to them..A simple example, a bully.. I'm sure you've meet one of them either in your neighborhood or your school.
They will be 'proud' only to those who are either smaller or weaker than themselves..
Upon closer examination usually there's something wrong within his / her close environment (such as family / household), and the "bully" might actually experienced being bullied by somebody within his/her close environment (mom, dad, brothers, sisters, seniors etc..) thus causing his / her low self esteem... which he / she is trying to compensate..I imagine you would agree with the following material, which you may remember ()
source http//www.lawofone.info/results.php?q=pride+ego&sc=1
I will try to look upon it later..
So when I read verses in Qur'an about how all good is from Him and how He relieves hardship and we should not say as humans that it our own doing, I'm confused. I feel like I'm supposed to be made to think like I'm wrong. I feel like He is saying to me, "No, you don't deserve that credit, that was what I did - Now let me take that from you." Not only that, but by attributing what appears to be my good works to myself instead of Him, I deserve punishment? I just don't get it.
Truly, your so called "Good or bad works" was also in accordance to God's plan..
And debating who should deserve the credits (or the blame) doesn't really matter..The similitude of surfing, one can surf because he / she follows the ocean wave.. and not trying to go against it...
Once he surfed on top of the ocean wave, who should deserve the credit? the ocean wave or the person surfing above it?
Actually the answer doesn't really matter... what's matter is now that he's surfing on top of the ocean wave..There's a chinese saying ?Live in peace. When the spring comes it will take no effort for the flowers to bloom."
When the flower bloom, who should deserve the credit? the season? the flower? or the one who plant the flower?
Doesn't really matter.... what matter is the flower is blooming.. but only when it's the time for the flower to bloom... -
Peace Comrox,
taking both 5722 (about the Record) and 5723 into account, we should not either despair or be happy BECAUSE we should recognize that we have already chosen this life and decided on these choices for ourselves, and understand that this is a process that we must go through for the sake of our own spiritual development.
bravo bravo bravo yay
You got it )
We voluntarily choose our major and minor out of our own free will which is recorded with the principal before we start classes, then the principal and assistants make sure we get the right teachers, books, lab equipment, computers etc. to help us learn those subjects and lessons.
The "we" in 5722 includes us + the infinite Creator + controllers. We contribute to bringing it about by freely choosing our parents, circumstances, catalysts, karmic perspectives etc. while we are in between lives area, which will be most appropriate for our spiritual development in the coming life (based on our self-assessment by previous life review). This is recorded in the Akashic library before we dive in, and the infinite Creator and malaika/"controllers" make sure what we freely chose and recorded happens in that incarnation.
Any insights into 4035? What's the "authority" that has to come for us to dispute/argue about revelations/signs?
The "authority" is the quranic methodology for verification of any truth including the quran itself
- Inner compass/intuition (3030) which is the infinite Creator communicating with us at all times.
- Mind/reason (482, 2368, 3829)
- Knowledge (176
- Real world evidence (4153) based on external and internal signs/truths.
All these are "authorities" that have come to them (4035).
They hide only from those who they see as superior compared to themselves..
Yet once they see those who they see as inferior / weak, they will display themselves proudly to them..Once we remember/realize who we actually are, that our-self and other-selves and the infinite Creator are all One, then there is no superior or inferior, and then there will be no hiding or egotistical pride. The red-ray, orange-ray, and yellow-ray center blockages will then resolve and the Infinite Intelligent Energy will be able to flow freely within those centers.
Peace