Could "angel" be a state, and not a creation ?

Man_of_Faith

Exactly like truthseeker says, me-la-ka means to command, send forth, control. Even a king on Earth is a melak. It is a condition to be of the melaikat. It is the condition we can reach if we progress spiritually (mentally). However your "kingdom is not of this world", but you do control this world as you in consensus with other "angels" determine the "timeline" (future) and related to your own mental strength of development. This is what is "God".

By "not of this world" means you do not have a physical part of this world but is ethereal.

Be well
Amenuel

LastDay3

Salaam/Peace Cerberus, and all Brothers/Sisters,

in my Understanding, due to these Verses here

====================
50- And We said to the Angels "Yield to Adam."
So they all yielded except for Iblees, (because of this) he became of the Jinn (=kana min al-Jinn) therein,
(because) he (thus) disobeyed the Order of his LORD.

So, will you (still) take him and his progeny (=liar and sinful Jinns such as this here =6/112-113) as allies besides ME,
while they are your enemy?
Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!

QURAN TESTAMENT 18/50

Thereby, I clearly infer from this Verse above

Iblees/Satan was indeed an Angel among all of those Angels above who were commanded to yield to Adam (=Human),
in the very beginning.
But when he disobeyed the Order of our Lord AL-LAH and refused to yield to Adam (=Human) therein,
he consequently became a Jinn therein.

So I think the ancestor-leader of Jinns (=Iblees/Satan) and all his progeny (=liar and sinful Jinns
such as this here =6/112-113)
are essentially fallen Angels who arrogantly and ignorantly disobeyed the Order of our Lord AL-LAH above.

(*If I'm not mistaken, I remember that
Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon Him) calls "Jinns" as the "Angels" of Iblees/Satan therein, for this Reason.)

Because that Iblees/Satan despises and hates our Lord AL-LAH
(*because he himself is a totally sick minded fallen Angel who always wants to be (not a "Servant")
but a direct "Partner," and a "Portion/Share/Piece/Part" of AL-LAH,
to satisfy his hostile, ignorant and arrogant ego therein,

so he always promises to Humans --(basically through his army of such liar and sinful Jinns here =6/112-113)

by deceiving them with such lies from the very beginning of Human history therein

= Angels are "daughters" of GOD, according to Iblees/Satan,
that means they are direct "Partners" who are ruling over everything as they themselves
were a "Portion/Share/Piece/Part" of AL-LAH therein,

which is utterly refuted and strongly condemned in QURAN TESTAMENT here (43/15-16 = 53/19-23, 26-27).

And in every Century, from the very beginning of Human history --(our ancestors Adam and Eve therein, in the first place),
Iblees/Satan always try to deceive Humans by basically promising them

that they will be Angels and Immortal

and thus they will become direct "Partners," who will rule over everything as they themselves
were a "Portion/Share/Piece/Part" of AL-LAH therein,

--which is utterly refuted and strongly condemned in QURAN TESTAMENT here (43/15 = 5/17-18, 72-74)--

when/if they listen to his advice therein

====================
20- But the Iblees/Satan whispered to them (Adam and Eve),
to reveal to them what was not apparent to them of their bodies, and he said

Your LORD did not prohibit you from this tree; so (if you eat from it) you will become "Angels," and you will (also) be Immortal.

21- And he swore to them --(in the Name of AL-LAH therein) "Certainly, I am for you a Good-Advisor (=i.e. he probably
introduced himself as a righteous "Angel" who is thus giving Good-Advise to them therein =18/50).

22- So by deceit Iblees/Satan (thus) brought about their downfall. ............

QURAN TESTAMENT 7/20-22

Remain in peace/salaam.

Man_of_Faith

No, Satan is basically promising them a worldly primitive paradise. This is what Satan drives them to.

About becoming an angel is pretty unknown information. That is the not so manifest declaration of your origin.

good_logic

Peace All.

My understanding, check all information and verify as per 1736.

GOD created "souls" at first creation. He did not create Angels or Jinns or Humans or Animals or Stars or ....etc.

One needs to ponder why?
Then the "Feud" (3869) happened? What was it? Why did it happen? Who initiated it?

That is when the " souls" were classified as Angels and death was created for others to be recreated as Jinns ,humans , animals, stars,...etc

Angels were the "souls" that accepted GOD s authority in full without any doubt,the other"souls"questioned/doubted/... GOD Alone authority which constituted a "rebellion" against the Creator. i.e Freedom of choice existed from the beginning for all the "souls".

Jinns were the hardest of these rebellious souls, Iblees initiated the "rebellion idea". Humans accepted the "Amana" ,other souls ( Animals...etc) repented and accepted their "fate/role" in this life to be redeemed after the predetermined time of this life and this life is now the battle ground ,yet again, for the Jinns and humans to redeem themselves .

GOD s justice is fair. He gave every "soul" the choice to become what they are now and is giving more chances for some to correct and accept His kingdom.
GOD bless .
Peace

LastDay3

No, Satan is basically promising them a worldly primitive paradise. This is what Satan drives them to.

About becoming an angel is pretty unknown information. That is the not so manifest declaration of your origin.

Salaam/Peace Man of Faith,

I essentially know the Arabic Language of QURAN, I always follow it in its original Arabic,
which is very Clear and Perfect, without any ambiguity/flaw in it, at all,
by the Grace of AL-LAH, unto all Humanity (18/1 & 39/28 & 43/3 & 54/17, 22).

I do not believe your self style lexicon/s and your personal inferences thereof,

--(in my understanding, they are fundamentally wrongful/mistaken/crooked,
and no one who essentially knows the basic Arabic Language of QURAN, which is
very Straightforward, Clear and Perfect (18/1 & 39/28 & 43/3 & 54/17, 22),

would take your self style lexicon/s and your personal inferences thereof, seriously,
never and not even a moment, at all)--

but everyone of us should totally be free here to follow the Path we choose for ourselves. (=76/3)

I have no intention to get into any discussion with you, dear Brother/Friend;
we have already discussed the Main Issues here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608758.90

Remain in peace/salaam.

Timotheus

Peace be upon you all,

i think the answer is likely somewhere between theese two extremes, much of Gods word is not exactly literal, but it is not completely figurative. although either way i think it is irrelevant to some extent what or who the angels are, but rather the example that God presents of them, one which is loyal and obedient servants whom are blessed with being in the presense of their Lord and serving Him, and one whom are disobediant wrongdoers whom get a curse and debasement in this dunya (lower portal life) and the akherat (the later)

in reference to the arabic language, it is extremely clear. why? because each word is based on a form which determines its action, and consists of a root which carries the meaning of the pictures (letters) which make it up. words are also not fallen out of the sky with three letter roots.. as one soon picks up if they look at a weak root for example (with w / y / a (possible ha) in it, and other roots which share the same other letters, there is almost always a crossover in meaning, with slight variation)

a short example, the conjuction wa. waw is a peg / stake / hook, its pictograph looks like this .. Y .. hence it is basicaly a stick, one end is driven into the ground, and the two points form a secure attachment to tie a cord to to secure something. hence why wa does not mean 'and' but rather, what it is, is a word which secures or joins what is attached to it, which normaly is two other words, or in the case of using it as an oath etc, one.

the book of genisis is know in hebrew by its first word, bereshet

what does bereshet mean? if you know even a little hebrew/semitic, you can imediately pick it up

b resh t
house - head - ta (last letter, marked, something is marked, so it IS something, manifest, ended, become, done etc)
house (in,with etc) head (foremost/top etc) mark (hard to explain, but easy to understand)
from that all we get the idea its in the head mark, or marked head, or foremost/top mark.. i.e 'initialy' or 'in the initial period/thing/distinguished/marked'
hence why people translate it 'in the beginning' although i think it would mean more 'in the first occurance, or initial thing/period'

semitic language is so simple, even a child can understand it, but sadly not the most learned scholars.. it is well said;

none may enter the kingdom of heaven but as a little child.

peace be with you all

Cerberus

I read everyone's opinion,

LastDay3,
you say that Iblees was an angel (creation?state?) that consequently became a Jinn, therefore losing his (original creation?state?) to becoming a new creation (Jinn, as Jinn is a creation as mentioned by God). So if he wasn't a Jinn, but was an Angel (let's say state) what was his creation then ? if he was an angel (let's say angel as a creation) And he became a Jinn in both cases he changed creation, according to you.

But you've also mentioned this verse and I'm glad you did
"But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal." " 720

Satan says "become angels". Although we can't say much about it as he is a deceiver and a liar. But we've got to admit that he uses angels as a state.

good logic,
First thing, I believe animals were among the creation of the earth, as an ecosystem, to serve the earth, therefore serving us (humans) people of the earth. Among these animals are some that we eat / drink from, and use their leather as mentioned by God.

You talked about "souls", I don't think we can say we are souls only; as mentioned by God we are clay based WITH a soul ? the two cannot be separated ? Same for Jinns. And If you can specify (or refer me to somewhere) what you mean by "souls" as you refered to every creature as soul, I'd appreciate it.

Main of faith,
Right after the "your kingdom is not of this world " until the end, I was unable to follow along with your reasoning, and I'd like to if you can refer me to somewhere or just be more explicit. Thanks eat

imrankhawaja

Hey, I'm having long thoughts regarding the Iblees verses,

"And We have certainly created you, , and given you form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated. said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." " 711-12

There is no doubt (at least for me) that Iblees was at some point an Angel, among the angels.

"And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange." 1850

Knowing that God mainly speaks about two creations

"And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." 5156

"(Allah) said (to Iblis) "Get out from this (Paradise) disgraced and expelled. Whoever of them (mankind) will follow you, then surely I will fill Hell with you all."
In this verse, Iblis is disgraced, lost his Light ?
Could it be that angels were initially Jinns that were given the angel state ? i.e "Light" ? perhaps they gained that position ?

"O you who have believed, repent to Allah with sincere repentance. Perhaps your Lord will remove from you your misdeeds and admit you into gardens beneath which rivers flow the Day when Allah will not disgrace the Prophet and those who believed with him. Their light will proceed before them and on their right; they will say, "Our Lord, perfect for us our light and forgive us. Indeed, You are over all things competent."" 668

Could it be that we "humans" get to become in that state too according to this verse above ? by gaining "Light" ?

Thank you.

just one word can give you answer if you think...

competetion

nowhere in quran , God said iblees/satan was one of the angels...
nowhere in quran its state that he was once an angel...

in all the places we will learn by the chances of outcomes... in one place God is declairing he was one of the jinns... even at the time when he refused to prostrate... refuse to prostrate in other words mean refuse to serve ....

jealousy... envy, arrogance was all about on his mind..... all that time...

jealousy started from succession/khalifa, caretaking God is going to give human, instead of jinns...
envy that how come human is so smart/intelligent... learn every mechansim of laws in one go when God teach...
arrogance becoz he was thinking his nature of creation is superior than dust.... energy/plasma/fire is better than dust/clay/solid

the other way round if we turn the story that after serving God the jinns were asking for reward... but God was already aware they are not worthy , not atleast testing them fully... so God make a plan to create human being... and the leader of that creation failed terribly in that test , even he challnaged God face to face.... what a shame height of ego height of arrogance, height of jealousy,

he was about to immortal but instead of immortal he gone astray...

he was again claiming and baliming God that due to which i get misled i will take them with me in hell as much much as i can...

every body have their views so i also represent my views ...

peace

Cerberus

fftopic

imrankhawaja

angels are not possibly light ... they are controllers of affairs that governs the laws of universe by the command of God...

you can say that like a government there are different service providers for gov some of them are better than others...

national security is better than army
an army... is better than police
police is better than uni professors
uni professors are better than random public,
random public is better than poor public,,
poor publlic of usa is bettter than poor public in africa..
poor public of africa is better than public of areas where war is going on...

a loop of worldy sytem is there...

God system of controling is controlled by some next level creation but they are also serving God... in a position at a level advance ... and kinda immortal...

we also look in immorality when our species accepted the trust... without thinking the consequnces that its a tough competetion like if you apply for national security 90 students failed in test ...

imrankhawaja

fftopic

what is fftopic

Cerberus

it means you changed the subject in a way I couldn't follow with you, concerning what I initially asked about sorry;

Man_of_Faith

Main of faith,
Right after the "your kingdom is not of this world " until the end, I was unable to follow along with your reasoning, and I'd like to if you can refer me to somewhere or just be more explicit. Thanks eat

I was quite explicit. Your kingdom is not of this world but your dominion is above matter, although you do control everything including this world. But you do not reside in this world and this was my point, and this is because you will be ethereal, i.e. you will not have a physical body made of matter.

An angel is an expression of God and not a creation in that regard. But of course in a way everything is initiated. What we live through here is a development project, it is a matter of expansion.

Be well
Amenuel

Man_of_Faith

angels are not possibly light ... they are controllers of affairs that governs the laws of universe by the command of God...

This is correct. It is we who are confined to bodies which are made of "light", or of energy whatever term to use. The source of generation is limitless and therefore the projected energy cannot be destroyed. The Al-Jinn is made of this "energy".

= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk

The "Al-Jinn" is literally "the fleshly", outer layer or whatever terms suits you best.

Regarding affairs your statement is almost correct.

you can say that like a government there are different service providers for gov some of them are better than others...

national security is better than army
an army... is better than police
police is better than uni professors
uni professors are better than random public,
random public is better than poor public,,
poor publlic of usa is bettter than poor public in africa..
poor public of africa is better than public of areas where war is going on...

a loop of worldy sytem is there...

The "hierarchy" there depends on the strength of the Being.

God system of controling is controlled by some next level creation but they are also serving God... in a position at a level advance ... and kinda immortal...

God is a phenomenon incorporating everyone. It is the core, with everyone contained within like within a singularity, i.e. something that actually does not take any space but yet contains massive amounts of "information". Everyone is contained within this oneness/unity.

we also look in immorality when our species accepted the trust... without thinking the consequnces that its a tough competetion like if you apply for national security 90 students failed in test ...

We are here due to a running test. We have not accepted anything but have been submitted to this as an initial phase of the shaping of our souls, and we are submitted to being perplexed from our origin and have to grow while under a delusion. The test is advanced and could be regarded as difficult, and there are also very few people who are passing through, as progressed subjects. What makes the delusion absolutely great is because we are in an illusion of having an identity with these bodies called Homo sapiens while we actually are of another origin. We are attached to the bodies while our persons are not bound to them necessarily and are of another nature. The spirit of this soul is flawless, perfect, but the delusion is also made to be very corrupting and to consume us. Under this delusion your spirit has to grow and you have to become Being, you need to become an independent Being or otherwise you are only just like a mindless slave good for nothing, wishing of his/her little pathetic worldly paradise which does not exist except in where he/she is right now and is being corrupted by all the failed mindless subjects who have been deceived and lost to the delusion as we speak (write).

And yes, I know, I did not censor that one.

Be well
Amenuel

Bender

nowhere in quran , God said iblees/satan was one of the angels...
nowhere in quran its state that he was once an angel...

I think he is a mailakat charged with blis (not the english bliss, but quranic blis).

LastDay3

I read everyone's opinion,

LastDay3,
you say that Iblees was an angel (creation?state?) that consequently became a Jinn,
therefore losing his (original creation?state?) to becoming a new creation (Jinn, as Jinn is a creation as mentioned by God).

So if he wasn't a Jinn, but was an Angel (let's say state) what was his creation then ?
if he was an angel (let's say angel as a creation) And he became a Jinn in both cases he changed creation, according to you.

But you've also mentioned this verse and I'm glad you did
"But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts.
He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal." " 720

Satan says "become angels".
Although we can't say much about it as he is a deceiver and a liar. But we've got to admit that he uses angels as a state.

Salaam/Peace Cerberus,

in my Understanding, first of all, we should absolutely see this clear Fact here.
For example, let's think about this statement, first of all

Teacher John said to the students Stand up, and all of them stood up except Tom, he refused to stand up, ......

the first thing we logically infer above is the Fact that
Tom must be a student among all of those students who were ordered to stand up, in the first place.

Because if he was not a student no one would have expected him to stand up, in the first place,
and no one would have blamed him for not standing up thereafter.

So, in exact same Way here, in this Verse

====================
50- And We said to the Angels "Yield to Adam."
So (all of them) yielded (=15/30) except for Iblees/Satan, (because of this) he became of the Jinn (=kana min al-Jinn) therein,
(because) he (thus) disobeyed the Order of his LORD.

.........

QURAN TESTAMENT 18/50

the first thing we logically and clearly infer above is the Fact that

Iblees/Satan must be an Angel among all of those Angels who were ordered to yield to Adam (=Human), in the first place.

Because if he was not an Angel no One would have expected him to yield to Adam (=Human) therein, in the first place,
and no One would have blamed him for not yielding to Adam (=Human) thereafter!

So thereby, we can also clearly infer from the above Verse

there are essentially 3 kinds of Beings, in this respect above, created by our Lord AL-LAH, in the very beginning

Angels (=they are honorable Servants of AL-LAH who truly loves and serves HIM and they do not disobey or betray HIM.)

=QURAN TESTAMENT 39/75 = 7/206 & 40/7, ......

Jinns (=they are ardent followers of Iblees/Satan who deeply hates and despises AL-LAH and all of those Jinns
disobey and betray AL-LAH.)

=QURAN TESTAMENT 18/50 = 6/112-113, ......

*But there are also some Jinns who truly repent and return to AL-LAH, these are such good/righteous Jinns here =72/1-4, 11-15

Humans (=they were honorable Servants of AL-LAH who truly loved and served HIM, but then they were deceived by Iblees/Satan and
disobeyed and betrayed HIM.)

=QURAN TESTAMENT 2/35-38

*So all Humans who truly repent and return to AL-LAH in this World may be among such good/righteous Humans
here and in the Hereafter, forever, inshaAL-LAH =2/38

but all Humans who never repent and return to AL-LAH in this World may be among such evil/unrighteous Humans
here and in the Hereafter, forever, in this case =2/39

So in this respect, we must absolutely know and unmistakably understand
these clear Facts here,
as strongly emphasized in this previous post here

====================
50- And We said to the Angels "Yield to Adam."
So they all yielded except for Iblees, (because of this) he became of the Jinn (=kana min al-Jinn) therein,
(because) he (thus) disobeyed the Order of his LORD.

So, will you (still) take him and his progeny (=liar and sinful Jinns such as this here =6/112-113) as allies besides ME,
while they are your enemy?
Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!

QURAN TESTAMENT 18/50

Thereby, we can clearly infer from this Verse above

Iblees/Satan was indeed an Angel among all of those Angels above who were commanded to yield to Adam (=Human),
in the very beginning.
But when he disobeyed the Order of our Lord AL-LAH and refused to yield to Adam (=Human) therein,
he consequently became a Jinn therein.

So we can clearly infer that
the ancestor-leader of Jinns (=Iblees/Satan) and all his progeny (=liar and sinful Jinns
such as this here =6/112-113)
are essentially fallen Angels who arrogantly and ignorantly disobeyed the Order of our Lord AL-LAH above.

(*If I'm not mistaken, I remember that
Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon Him) calls "Jinns" as the "Angels" of Iblees/Satan therein, for this Reason.)

Because that Iblees/Satan despises and hates our Lord AL-LAH
(*because he himself is a totally sick minded fallen Angel who always wants to be (not a "Servant&quot
but a direct "Partner," and a "Portion/Share/Piece/Part" of AL-LAH,
to satisfy his hostile, ignorant and arrogant ego therein,

so he always promises to Humans --(basically through his army of such liar and sinful Jinns here =6/112-113)
and thus he tries to deceive them with such lies
from the very beginning of Human history therein

= Angels are "daughters" of GOD, according to Iblees/Satan,
that means they are direct "Partners" who are ruling over everything as they themselves
were a "Portion/Share/Piece/Part" of AL-LAH therein,

which is utterly refuted and strongly condemned in QURAN TESTAMENT here (43/15-16 = 53/19-23, 26-27).

And in every Century, from the very beginning of Human history --(our ancestors Adam and Eve therein, in the first place),
Iblees/Satan always try to deceive Humans by basically promising them

that they will be Angels and Immortal

and thus they will become direct "Partners," who will rule over everything as they themselves
were a "Portion/Share/Piece/Part" of AL-LAH therein,

--which is utterly refuted and strongly condemned in QURAN TESTAMENT here (43/15 = 5/17-18, 72-74)--

when-if they listen to Iblees/Satan's (fundamentally misleading and deceitful) advice here

====================
20- But the Iblees/Satan whispered to them (Adam and Eve),
to reveal to them what was not apparent to them of their bodies, and he said

Your LORD did not prohibit you from this tree; so (if you eat from it) you will become "Angels," and you will (also) be Immortal.

21- And he swore to them --(in the Name of AL-LAH therein) "Certainly, I am for you a Good-Advisor (=i.e. he probably
introduced himself as a righteous "Angel" who is thus giving Good-Advise to them therein =18/50).

22- So by deceit Iblees/Satan (thus) brought about their downfall. ............

QURAN TESTAMENT 7/20-22

Remain in peace/salaam.

good_logic

Peace Cerbirus.

You asked,quote

And If you can specify (or refer me to somewhere) what you mean by "souls" as you refered to every creature as soul, I'd appreciate it.

Of course we are "souls" living in this body -As garnment- i.e body and soul. But the real person is the "soul" inside the body described here
He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay. Then He continued his reproduction through a certain lowly liquid/Reproduction.
We have been given this chance to redeem ourselves
We have offered the Amana/ responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.*

O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.
Both us and Jinns are on trial in this life
.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

peace GL

why did not jinn are on 33 72

God bless you

good_logic

Peace Imran.
GOD is talking to us ( humans) through "our messenger" in 3372

May be similarly GOD has sent a messenger to the Jinns
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

Peace Imran.
GOD is talking to us ( humans) through "our messenger" in 3372

May be similarly GOD has sent a messenger to the Jinns
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

actually what i wanted to ask, what do you think... the 33 72 is not the time when jinns were already created..by lord..

offer was just for humanity.

peace
God bless you