Gods "Arsh" - Throne
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QURAN - Free-Minds.Org Translation
23116 So, Exalted is God, the true King, there is no god except He, the Lord of the noble Throne.
117 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water; so as to test who from among you works the best. And when you say "You will be resurrected after the death," those who have rejected say "This is but clear magic!"
So, as it says in the Quran, God is on a Throne and the throne is above waters.
As we know God is the Most Exalted and High, thus logically the Throne he is sitting on, is higher and more exalted than we are. So if the throne is on water. Those waters are more exalted and high than we too.
So GodGods ThroneWaters----------------7 Skies-----------------The Earth
Wrong reading bro.
Check http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=488.0
Allah is everywhere. He is our sustainer. -
So we come, or at least i come to the worship part.
I see that some people in the forum do not accept the word "worship" and say it is wron, it is serve. Serve we can do that to anybody or anything, worship we can only do to God. Nobody is in relationship to us as God is.
To acknowledge God with all it entails is to worship. Serve, do we serve God how? He does not need a damned thing from us. But we need to acknowledge Him for our own good. So in fact wht we do is serve oursleves by worshiping God.
We become happy when we worship absolutely, because then we are living in reality not in dreams. When we serve anybody or anything, we are not giving up ourselves, we are still our own masters. When we worship God we give up wholly ourselves, we acknowledge tht we are not our masters, that we are all His and only because of Him and to hIM we will return. That is what we are here for, to fulfill our destiny. Come from God and travel back to God as conscious beings.
Salaam
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Peace All.
No wonder our imagination is getting the better of us
What comes next, let me guess?
There is no bed big enough for GOD, that is why GOD does not sleep?
His "chair" is as big as the "Samawaat and the earth"?
So how big can His "throne be"?Actually we can add
How big is His hand?
Can He really hold the earth with "two fingers" and the universes in His "palm"?Brother Hawk, you are right. We have GOD s attributes, a reminder for us to"curb our imagination" and not say about GOD what we have no knowledge of, and do what sister huruf suggested "Worship Him Alone".and "Ask help from Him Alone".
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Wrong reading bro.
Check http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=488.0
Allah is everywhere. He is our sustainer.You see Reel. By reading Quran further, one can see that there IS Something "there" up high, a place which is really real.
Quran free-minds.org Translation
378 They cannot listen to the command up high; and they are bombarded from every side.
3867 Say "It is an awesome news."
3868 "From which you turn away."
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high (The exalted Assembly), that they had quarreled."Quarreled ? Who with who ? The command Up High . About what did they quarreled ? And why it is a great news for us ?
3875 He said "O Satan, what prevented you from yielding to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted?"
So Satan should have prostate before Adam, because he was not one of the Exalted. But we know that God says that the angels DID prostrate to Adam. Thus logically it can mean only one thing. That even the Angels are not one of those Exalted. Really interesting...
6917 And the angels will be on its borders; and the Throne of your Lord will be carried, above them on that Day, by eight.
So who are the "Eight" who will carry The Throne of Our Lord above the angels ?
Psalm 821 New International Version
A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the "gods"(God, etc. Or, God standeth in the assembly of God. (ail) he judgeth among the judges. (Elohim) God is among His own people; and presides especially in those courts of justice which Himself has established.)
You see You are saying that God is everywhere and that the verses in the Quran which speak about the God as the Most High who Sits on the exalted Throne which is above the waters are just symbology for representing his power and rulership over everything. But what if it is the opposite?
What if these verses are literal. And the fact that God is everywhere it means that he is omnipresent. He can see and hear everything. But doesnt mean that He is not Up there.
Don't we agree that we are in this controlled environment just like in a testing ground to see who is the best. When scientist make an experiment they don't interfere until the experiment is over right ? This can explain then why so much horror happens on this planet. Rape, Murder, Loss of health and etc.
Just look at the animal kingdom. Everything is made to consume each other. Dont you think is interesting ? There are animals designed in a way where they HAVE to kill another animal to get energy for survival. Dont you think this design is interesting. So to be able to prolong its days on this Earth the animal has to murder the other animal? As the batman movies say "You die a hero or live long enough to become the villain"For example take The Stanford Prison Experiment. In this experiment they divided participants into two groups. Group 1. should have played the role of police officers and Group 2. should have played the role of the prisoners. And what you think happened ? The kind intelligent participants who got to play the role of the police officers became sadistic maniacs after couple of days of the 6-day experiment. Did the scientists interfere ? NO! Because the experiment wasn't finished.
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Peace hansolo,
These verses have been troubling for me and I have not been able to reconcile them. 2115 indicates the God is present everywhere. The presence is not confined to just seeing and hearing but the complete presence. If it was just seeing and hearing, the verse would have said eyes and ears of the God, instead of face of the God. Idiomatically, face of the God means the whole being. Therefore, some of these verses which make it look like the God is confined to a certain place contradict 2115.
Peace
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Peace hansolo,
These verses have been troubling for me and I have not been able to reconcile them. 2115 indicates the God is present everywhere. The presence is not confined to just seeing and hearing but the complete presence. If it was just seeing and hearing, the verse would have said eyes and ears of the God, instead of face of the God. Idiomatically, face of the God means the whole being. Therefore, some of these verses which make it look like the God is confined to a certain place contradict 2115.
Peace
Peace to you, Truthseeker11
You see... you are interpreting the words to make it fit into your idea of God. I respect that. We all have our individual brains, thus we tend to think differently.
However, Those verses ARE in the Quran. And just like the verse where it talks about the face of God, those verse are descriptive too. If the verse that says that God is on the throne which is most high. If it was for the sake of symbology of Gods might and rulership. Why than we get details such as, that this specific throne is over waters ? And as we know there are no contradictions in the Quran.Also to add to the believe that god is everywhere. Does it mean that when we go to the toilet we do our biological needs on God ?
You see how absurd it is ?If God says so it is so. Didnt God say that this Quran is in Arabic so we understand. Why would God make it so confusing. He is most merciful.
Or maybe is US who make things confusing. Because we just can't believe what God says and we start interpreting things how ever it fits our understanding of the world.
Lastly, what more to we need?
Free-minds.org Translation
325 He arranges matters from the heaven to the earth, then it ascends to Him in a day which is equivalent to one thousand of the years which you count.It takes TIME to acend to him. Thus it means that there is a DISTANCE.
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Peace hansolo,
2435 also points to the God being present everywhere, in line with 2115
2435 God is the Light of the heavens and the earth ........................
Additionally the God blows from his spirit in every human being
1529 "So when I evolve him, and blow from My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him."
3872 "So when I have evolved him, and blow of My Spirit in him, then you shall yield to him."
11123 uses the word "return" in the same context of matters, which gives a totally different meaning of all matters having a timespan and then after that timespan they return to their Lord. The word "return" doesn't imply "distance". So which is it? YURJA3U meaning "return" in 11123 or YU3RUJU meaning "ascend" in 325? Yet another apparent contradiction.
11123 And to God is the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and to Him all matters return. So serve Him and put your trust in Him. Your Lord is not unaware of what you all do.
Peace
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Peace hansolo,
2435 also points to the God being present everywhere, in line with 2115
2435 God is the Light of the heavens and the earth ........................
Additionally the God blows from his spirit in every human being
1529 "So when I evolve him, and blow from My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him."
3872 "So when I have evolved him, and blow of My Spirit in him, then you shall yield to him."
11123 uses the word "return" in the same context of matters, which gives a totally different meaning of all matters having a timespan and then after that timespan they return to their Lord. The word "return" doesn't imply "distance". So which is it? YURJA3U meaning "return" in 11123 or YU3RUJU meaning "ascend" in 325? Yet another apparent contradiction.
11123 And to God is the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and to Him all matters return. So serve Him and put your trust in Him. Your Lord is not unaware of what you all do.
Peace
Really interesting my fellow soul-friend, Thruthseeker11. Makes one think. I hope we get down to the truth by means of discussion. Either way Im sure we both will only benefit. Because isn't the Truth, we are after ?
group
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It takes TIME to acend to him. Thus it means that there is a DISTANCE.
That sounds awfully primitive. I vote that this is a clear interpretation error.
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Peace All.
No wonder our imagination is getting the better of us
What comes next, let me guess?
There is no bed big enough for GOD, that is why GOD does not sleep?
His "chair" is as big as the "Samawaat and the earth"?
So how big can His "throne be"?Actually we can add
How big is His hand?
Can He really hold the earth with "two fingers" and the universes in His "palm"?Brother Hawk, you are right. We have GOD s attributes, a reminder for us to"curb our imagination" and not say about GOD what we have no knowledge of, and do what sister huruf suggested "Worship Him Alone".and "Ask help from Him Alone".
GOD bless.
Peace.) You explain it well.
So we come, or at least i come to the worship part.
I see that some people in the forum do not accept the word "worship" and say it is wron, it is serve. Serve we can do that to anybody or anything, worship we can only do to God. Nobody is in relationship to us as God is.
To acknowledge God with all it entails is to worship. Serve, do we serve God how? He does not need a damned thing from us. But we need to acknowledge Him for our own good. So in fact wht we do is serve oursleves by worshiping God.
We become happy when we worship absolutely, because then we are living in reality not in dreams. When we serve anybody or anything, we are not giving up ourselves, we are still our own masters. When we worship God we give up wholly ourselves, we acknowledge tht we are not our masters, that we are all His and only because of Him and to hIM we will return. That is what we are here for, to fulfill our destiny. Come from God and travel back to God as conscious beings.
Salaam
I agree, we must be very careful with conjecture.
So what have you learned about our origin?
These verses have been troubling for me and I have not been able to reconcile them. 2115 indicates the God is present everywhere. The presence is not confined to just seeing and hearing but the complete presence. If it was just seeing and hearing, the verse would have said eyes and ears of the God, instead of face of the God. Idiomatically, face of the God means the whole being. Therefore, some of these verses which make it look like the God is confined to a certain place contradict 2115.
Peace
Peace truthseeker11,
Approach the Quran as both metaphorical and literal and not only literal,
then decide which is applicable, this may be of benefit to all of us.
(see good logic's post above)peace
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Peace
Please take a look at these following verses below.
QURAN - Free-Minds.Org Translation
117 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water;
so as to test who from among you works the best. ......So, as it says in the Quran, God is on a Throne and the throne is above waters.
.........So there is water above us?
Peace
Salaam/Peace Hansolo,
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7- HE is the ONE Who has created the heavens and the Earth in six Days, and HIS Throne (=Arshuhu
i.e. HIS Governing/Creative Power) became-realized (=kana) upon the Water (=i.e. HE initiated life on the Earth upon the the Water therein,
in the very Beginning =21/30-31);
so as to test who from among you works the best (here on the Earth)!And when you say "(Thereafter), you will (also) be resurrected/awakened (in a parallel Universe, instantly) after the death" (=16/28-29 X 16/32)
those who have rejected will say "This is but a clear Magic!"QURAN TESTAMENT 11/7
And due to the Fact that
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11- .........There is nothing like HIM (=AL-LAH).4- And there is no one and nothing that could be compared/likened to HIM (=AL-LAH).
QURAN TESTAMENT 42/11 = 112/4
Thereby, we can clearly and unmistakably see that
all of these Allegorical Terms in QURAN TESTAMENT, here"Face of AL-LAH" (=i.e. the Absolute Seeing & Hearing & Governing Power of AL-LAH =13/22 & ......
"Hands of AL-LAH" (=i.e. the Absolute Granting & Helping Power of AL-LAH =5/64 & ......
"Eyes of AL-LAH" (=i.e. the Absolute Watching & Guarding Power of AL-LAH =20/39 & ......"Throne of AL-LAH" (=i.e. the Absolute Executive/Creating Power of AL-LAH =11/7 & ......
"Seat of AL-LAH" (=i.e. the Absolute Executive/Commanding Power of AL-LAH =2/255 & ......are all --in such a perfectly parallel manner, one after the other, above-- Allegorical Terms therein
--(they can never be understood in their Literal meaning because of the Reason
clearly and unmistakably taught to us by our Lord AL-LAH in the above Verses 42/11 = 112/4,
in the very first place.)--And in any of these Allegorical Terms above
the Individual/Personal "Presence of AL-LAH" is Not indicated therein,because HIS Individual/Personal Presence is absolutely above and beyond all Universe/s,
all Things whatsoever we can ever imagine above us,as we can clearly witness it in this Verse, in the first place =70/4,
here====================
4- All Angels and the Spirit (=Gabriel, =16/102) can ascend to HIM (=AL-LAH)
in a Day the length whereof is --(after passing beyond all limits of all Universe/s, all Things
we can ever imagine above us, first of all)--
fifty thousand years (therein).QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4
thus our Lord AL-LAH is absolutely Different/Separate/Distinct above and beyond all Universe/s,
all Things we can ever imagine above us, from the very Beginning.QURAN TESTAMENT 42/11 = 112/4 & 70/4 & 19/65 = 28/88
And for this reason,
Iblees/Satan always concocts false and imaginary gods which would individually be
inhabiting/inseparable/indwelling within all Universe/s, all Things(=these false and imaginary gods are called "jibt & taghoot"
and utterly condemned by our Lord AL-LAH here =4/51, 60)and thereafter Iblees/Satan would thus also easily claim himself and jinns and humans who would ignorantly
follow and worship him there as a God Incarnate (=6/112-113 & 17/64)and thus also as a natural/intrinsic "partner" and "piece/share/portion/part" of God, in unity!
thus to absolutely exploit and rule over all creatures --(created by AL-LAH Alone)--
due to his such a megalomaniac sick mind and inflated ego therein.QURAN TESTAMENT 17/62-64 = 43/15 & 5/17-18, 72-74
For this reason,
only those truthful Servants of AL-LAH who truly love HIM
will absolutely repent and return to HIM, and thus strongly believe in HIMas our One and Only GOD
Who is absolutely Different/Separate/Distinct above and beyond all Universe/s, all Things we can
ever imagine above us,QURAN TESTAMENT 70/4 = 42/11 = 112/1-4
and HE has never appointed no "Partners" to HIMSELF from any of HIS Servants (=i.e. Humans, Angels, Jinns, etc.),
in no way, at all,QURAN TESTAMENT 6/163 = 17/111
and HE has never ascribed no "Portion/Share/Piece/Part" to HIMSELF from any of HIS Servants (=i.e. Humans, Angels, Jinns, etc.),
in no way, at all,QURAN TESTAMENT 43/15 = 5/17-18 = 5/72-74
will be saved by AL-LAH, and they will attain to Eternal Salvation and Everlasting Happiness, forever.
QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71, 72-73-74-75-76
Remain in peace/salaam.
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people ask you regarding God?
answers most of the time given in metaphorical order.. due to a very big reason...
God is unimagineable , imagination or ,metaphroical or allergical order of defining God throne of alimighty and supreme control is not a thing a human mind can ever calculate/understand...
when mind cannot percieve thing so its only one way left to explain methphorical... even in this sense an intelligent perosn will cannot even able to imagine the full of God...
let say the eyes of lord(methphorically) the watcher of everything within heavens and earth and what is between them...
now God define methphorically but did human being still know the edges of first or lower universe/heavens..?
did you still understand what are the eyes of God? even in methphircally sense , obviously no..
God is above from whatever they associate with him
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It is obvious what the eyes of God refers to, to have perception over and the eyes of God sees everything simultaneously, just like any ethereal being would. "God's throne" is the whole of existence, it does not have a center. If Heaven is his seat the Earth is his footstool as a wise man once said.
You can comprehend fairly much about God's nature if you are just insightful into the realm of God. You can learn very much from authentic writings. You can learn from both Quran (even the sectarian interpretation) and the Bible that God is with people and it means one becomes superior. In the Bible it was written "I am who I am". In the Bible it was written "made in His image". Then some deluded folks made interpretations of things according to themselves, but that is a different story.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
You say, quote
Then some deluded folks made interpretations of things according to themselves, but that is a different story.
Do you include yourself in this category?
If you do, I call that honesty and well done to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Man Of Faith.
You say, quote
Then some deluded folks made interpretations of things according to themselves, but that is a different story.
Do you include yourself in this category?
If you do, I call that honesty and well done to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I do not, but can you prove to me I am deluded I will reconsider. But I do have backup from the Rabb concerning what I am into, so I have confidence.
Verily, much can be figured out using logic alone.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
Brother, the logic of man can indeed be very deluded.
Prove to you?
I can only prove to me the things that I believe.
Some of my views contradict yours, but that is fine by me.I expect people to differ.
On that promised day, it will be clear to both of us.Remember though, either me or you can be deluded if we hold contradictory views.
So until then, or until before that if GOD wills,I am willing to stay at peace with each other and discuss amicably.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Logic is logic. Logic cannot lie. But your logical ability can be flawed and then your reasoning is immediately seeming inconsistent. And then I mean inconsistent with sound logic. Even if Quran says something according to someone's interpretation it does not necessarily mean it holds water.
What I mean is, logic is universal and there is no different logic. The only thing preventing one from using sound logic is the lack of wisdom.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
Wisdom can only be deduced/judged by others.
If one thinks/deduces/judges himself to be wise,that person is deluded in my opinion.
Again brother ,we differ on this one.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace Man Of Faith.
Wisdom can only be deduced/judged by others.
If one thinks/deduces/judges himself to be wise,that person is deluded in my opinion.
Again brother ,we differ on this one.
GOD bless you.
PeaceWisdom can be monitored by others, certainly, but if someone can employ sound logic in decisions this person is wise. Wisdom is about using what you have at hand in the best possible manner and in that it is linked to logic.
And now you jumped over to talk about wisdom when we were talking about logic. I said that one's ability to employ sound logic determines their wisdom.
Why is your conclusion?
If one thinks/deduces/judges himself to be wise,that person is deluded in my opinion.
Of course I do not need to say I am wise and I think I never did. It is for people to see if I am wise.
Be well
Amenuel