Would you commit shirk if God told you so ?

hansolo

So. After this incident with Iblis not obeying The All mighty. He was kicked out, out of Heaven? Yes!
So. Afterwards Adam and Eve were deceived by this same Iblis and they were kicked out too?
Wow this Iblis guy is really powerful. He was kicked out of the Heaven by Gods command. And shockingly he was able to come back to deceive the Humans so to say, so they'll join him to his trip down to Earth.

And, yes a question! When we talk about The heaven, we don't mean the paradise right?
So heaven is verything that is above us right? So when we say he was kicked out, out of heaven. We are in fact not talking about an exact place, right? Hmm....Maybe heavens are not what we think, after all...

And one more question!(You see I have a Phd in question asking, hehe )
So Iblis were with Angels and God before his death? Do things work even that way? And he asks God to make him live until the day of Judgment? Hmm... Sooo...A mortal being were among the Heavenly?
I thought one must die and than only on the judgement day he will be put into hell or into Heaven.

Interesting confused

imrankhawaja

as per quran, there are 11 occassions where the name ibless is mention,

nowhere in these 11 occassions its stated he was angel... instead the statement is he was with angels...

but there is one occassion in which its cleared that he was of jinns... here you go...

1850 When We said to the controllers "Submit to Adam." They all submitted except for ibless, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. "Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy?" Miserable for the wicked is the substitute

in light of this , according to quran he was a jinn..

and as per my understanding it was also a test of his submission in which he failed terribly ...

peace

imrankhawaja

So. After this incident with Iblis not obeying The All mighty. He was kicked out, out of Heaven? Yes!
So. Afterwards Adam and Eve were deceived by this same Iblis and they were kicked out too?
Wow this Iblis guy is really powerful. He was kicked out of the Heaven by Gods command. And shockingly he was able to come back to deceive the Humans so to say, so they'll join him to his trip down to Earth.

And, yes a question! When we talk about The heaven, we don't mean the paradise right?
So heaven is verything that is above us right? So when we say he was kicked out, out of heaven. We are. It talking about an exact place, right? Hmm....Maybe heavens are not what we think, after all...

i think the heaven which we have in our mind,is not created yet..or not rewarded untill test finish in success...

and the garden/paradise what mention with adam it was on earth , not outside the earth. specially in this life span.. human being only reside in earth untill he is alive....

the theory of heavens other than earth is unscientific and contradicting ...

and after that you can easily see the devil is always so powerful that he can bring ideas in your mind... but the ideas what he brings never fulfiil if a human not proceed with the authority of decision he have...

so he is just powerful in a sense he suggest an idea ... thats it...
at that time there was no test of adam like kids money / kingship he was on its own... so the only restriction of not to eat from that tree... in which he could not stop himself , it was their own choice of going against the test...

like in this daily life we wrong ourself multiple times even after knowing its not allowed to us by God... multiple examples you will see...

Rekkd

So. After this incident with Iblis not obeying The All mighty. He was kicked out, out of Heaven? Yes!
So. Afterwards Adam and Eve were deceived by this same Iblis and they were kicked out too?
Wow this Iblis guy is really powerful. He was kicked out of the Heaven by Gods command. And shockingly he was able to come back to deceive the Humans so to say, so they'll join him to his trip down to Earth.

And, yes a question! When we talk about The heaven, we don't mean the paradise right?
So heaven is verything that is above us right? So when we say he was kicked out, out of heaven. We are in fact not talking about an exact place, right? Hmm....Maybe heavens are not what we think, after all...

And one more question!(You see I have a Phd in question asking, hehe )
So Iblis were with Angels and God before his death? Do things work even that way? And he asks God to make him live until the day of Judgment? Hmm... Sooo...A mortal being were among the Heavenly?
I thought one must die and than only on the judgement day he will be put into hell or into Heaven.

Interesting confused

I always asked myself and others the same questions. Never got a satisfying answer.

hansolo

Brother Imran as per your own words, you say that heavens and hell are not created yet, because first the judgement day must come. Than how did a jinn, who some believe are living with us on this same exact earth, how did this mortal jinn Be in heavens with God and Angels? How could he do that without the test being over? Without judgement day coming first? If he is one of the jinn, than we know that jinns are mortal just like humans, right? And they are here too for testing. Or maybe our understanding is so far from the truth, thus consequently we try to find logic in already flawed point of view.

And if there is no heaven and hell yet. And only garden of Eden.
Where were God and his angels and Iblis, when God asked them to prostate to adam? On earth with him in garden of Eden? Together with Adam?

hansolo

When we say that Adam and Eve were caused out of the Heaven. Think about it for a sec. why would they be so sad about it? We know that Earth is pretty beautiful isn't it?

I believe the fact is not that they changed their location. But because they became mortal, thus they lost their divinity. Interestingly enough the up to date translation of the Quran says that Iblis whispered them the suggestionthat the forbidden fruit will make them angels or immortal. Why would they want to seek it if they are immortal already? Or where they?

I would not tell a perso to play this game that he might become 2 meters tall, if he is already 2 meters tall. You see the logic? So I must promise him something which he has not, right? From this logic it points to two conclusions

A.) Adam was not immortal being, thus he had a reason to eat the fruit
B.) Adam WAS immortal however he did not know about it.

However I would doubt that option B. is correct. Because the same Quran says that Adam knew the names of all things, even the names of things that the Angels themselves did not know about. So I see Adam as being an intelligent and knowledgeable being.

imrankhawaja

look if you look all of this in normal way then everything is pretty clear, and if you look everything in a fantasy way then things get crumbled with eachother... obviously then you will divert your attentions...

you asked where was God when asking from angels, jinns and human...?
answer the dominion/power of God is everywhere, space and time cannot apply to God...

well about the garden ... if its on earth.. where is the contradiction? ... did two recorders/controllers are not still with you , with me and with everybody?

about jinns... i told you read quran fully lot of answers you dnt even need to ask... ok for this particular situation... jinss are a creation of different nature than human, yeh they can visit galaxies... and there powers were limited just after a passage of time... if you recall the verse... no jinn can hear or try to steal the information from controllers...

about human.. before eating from tree it was of different stage... which we have no knowledge apart from which is already told to us by God... let say after eating/disobeying the command the law effect on them and their bodies become apparent to them... if u get a hint from that... dnt you see the real self inside us, but whatever test we approach its regarding the body. like clothing , food, shelter, beauty, and lot more stuff... how easy would be the life if we have not a load of body...

but again thats just my understanding , what stage they were before the disobeying i cannot tell it for sure...

what is so hard to understand in all this...

and yeh when you are in the 6th floor of building , and making noise the controller of the building will simply say you expell from this building... go down .. nd stuff like that... it does not make building out or earth...?

so same when they was expelled out from that garden it does not mean it was a paradise what we will rewarded after this life... probablly a garden or a hidden garden that is suitable for the stage before the mistake.so when the law affect on adam , he must leave that place to spend life in a way how everybody is spending now...

like fish cannot live without water, we cannot live in water, the bodyless soul cannot live in direct sunlight and the soul with body cannot live in garden designed for bodyless soule... hope you got it now...

when u put your hand in fire , the law of fire will affect you and make you burn,,
they disobeyed the law and law affect on them and they have to carry a load of body... on other words the mistake give them harm instead of benefit... so they feel sad.

for me its very crystal clear to understand all this... i dnt know why you find it confusing

HP_TECH

I always asked myself and others the same questions. Never got a satisfying answer.

Pathetic is to ask guidance from men while the explanation is due upon your Lord.
Nay, rather you are entertainers of doubt.
Impatient with the Qur'an

Rekkd

Pathetic is to ask guidance from men while the explanation is due upon your Lord.
Nay, rather you are entertainers of doubt.
Impatient with the Qur'an

Entertainers of doubt? Dude I'm just trying to understand different points of view, doesnt meant I accept 100% or even consider them to be right. Nothing wrong with that, however, if I follow blindly then you can start complaining or assume things about me.

I don't need to even write here, I can just be a reader. But I would like to see Man of Faiths interpretation since its very new and unique to me, and I believe I was introduced to this as one of the many stages to discover the truth.

Not long ago, I was a traditional sunni muslim scared of my doubts, asking myself why do I feel these hadith stories sound like fairy tales and why is there such injustice from what I was taught from scholars and sheikhs. Always being told Allahu Alam (Only God knows) and that I shouldn't question them. My unconventional ways have lead me to where I am now, I used to google contradictions in Islam or hate in Islam or similar things to understand where it all went wrong. Didn't make my faith any weaker, actually made it stronger. I worship Allah alone and that will never change, however, there is nothing wrong with trying to understand his message. MOF sounds crazy, I used to attack his posts too, I get attacked by friends when I say Quran alone. Is it right.

Doubters will always find an excuse to turn their backs on Allah one way or another, not by a bunch of posts posted by random people online.

Man_of_Faith

Look at this readers not one reference, not one citation from Quran nor Lexicons or whatever "book" he gets this information from...
All mere conjecture...

Be gone
rather....

You posted this earlier yourself containing the definitions whereas I did not repeat it.

= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk

Furqan

Salam to all
Q235 And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your spouse, in Paradise and eat therefrom in abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this TREE, lest you be among the wrongdoers."
Q722 partSo he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree,
""
Point did not eat from TREE(not fruit), but TASTED
Q1424 Have you not considered how Allah presents an example,a good word like a good TREE, whose root is firmly fixed and its branches in the sky?
Q1426 And the example of a bad word is like a bad tree, uprooted from the surface of the earth, not having any stability.

reel

Where is the competition with the angels? Angels knew before God that Adam genderation would be bloodshedders? They say this
They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is the Knowing, the Wise."232
Or do we believe as Invalid once wondered, humans multiplied through incest?
Note
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.327
And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a growth7117

And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful."231

Lets not call it competition because Allah "taught" Adam the names. And as you have seen we can't isolate verses because Quran explains itself. Hence, I provided the other verses previously. Of course, there are some more I didn't have the time to include. As I said, if you consider Adam to be first human which nowhere in the Quran seems to exist then you have to assume that humans multiplied through incest. Do you agree with that concept?

If you wanna know about blood shedders get some pets. This is gonna get many things cleared up about who we are. So far this is what I have learned from my own pets
They are inclined to rape (my new finding after I brought a female kitty home)
They are impatient
They do deceive
They are arrogant
They hate to share things
They are selfish
They do practice eugenic
They like to show off to make their peers feel bad
They are demanding
They can be fake
They fight for their own entertainment and to kill boredom
They are racist (that came as a surprise to me)
They copy each other blindly ( the latest in our community is folding of one front leg because there was a disabled kitty who was doing this)
When they want something they'll destroy things on the way to getting it.
They can be taught what is illegal, but if the owner is not near they'll do it anyways and they cover for each other

What makes "successor" relate to Adam and not to Iblis ? Or something else other than the two ?

If you read all the verses we are discussing here you will notice that brain/mind is one of the biggest things to make Adam different. Allah taught Adams the names and it really is what makes him different.

He said, "O Adam, inform them of their names." And when he had informed them of their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you reveal and what you have concealed."231

Go to all the verses about Iblees. He is arrogant and he has plans to deceive humans. Look at the world think what deception does to it. One example is atom bomb. Majority of the scientists were deceived to work for it. They had no idea that they were making a bomb. If you explode a few on this planet we will be back in the forest. Successors are about progressing. The opposite is backward. Ponder upon the laws given in the Quran.

Jinns/Reptilians/Dinosaurs is still here ?

And on what is your claim based on?

Do you know that you have a Reptilian Brain core, just like every human being on Earth. And this brain core is responsible for things like wanting to eat, fornicate, and other lusts. Which God teaches us to not get attached to.

https//k12.thoughtfullearning.com/sites/k12/files/blogPost/images/brain_image.jpg

Dont you see that our bodies are our enemies ? The serpent is inside of our brains ?

http//mikelev.in/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lizard-brain-300x285.gif

The Garden of Eden might be just an allegory to the constant fight between our higher self and serpent/reptilian core brain, which drives/deceives us to eat those "forbidden fruits".

Thank you so so much for this post Honslo. It sums up everything.

hansolo

bravo
Reel really interesting post. It really opens one`s eyes, so to speak.

And thanks for kind words. We all here because we are hungry for the truth. Doesn't matter how bitter it is.

reel

bravo
Reel really interesting post. It really opens one`s eyes, so to speak.

And thanks for kind words. We all here because we are hungry for the truth. Doesn't matter how bitter it is.

Thanks ). I did a bit of of more research. It seems that thinking part of the brain indeed came later
https//www.sociedelic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/New-Brain-Middle-Brain-and-the-Reptilian-Brain.jpg
http//image.slidesharecdn.com/mechanismofaddictionfinal-140422085734-phpapp01/95/mechanism-of-addiction-10-638.jpg?cb=1410690197
And I suppose this describes what MOF has been telling us
http//i4.ifrm.com/670/83/upload/p22032418.jpg

imrankhawaja

And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful."231

Lets not call it competition because Allah "taught" Adam the names. And as you have seen we can't isolate verses because Quran explains itself. Hence, I provided the other verses previously. Of course, there are some more I didn't have the time to include. As I said, if you consider Adam to be first human which nowhere in the Quran seems to exist then you have to assume that humans multiplied through incest. Do you agree with that concept?

i think you are confused in evolution of human being and creation of human being...
and perfection of human being after they accept the test... !

RED is there is any human being before adam in quran is mention?

the subject is not only 2 31 go through all the verses after that.. something what is apparent according to there , the event took place in which adam achieved what asked from him and angels could not make it , and then God commanded them to give an honour to adam..isnt it...

If you wanna know about blood shedders get some pets. This is gonna get many things cleared up about who we are. So far this is what I have learned from my own pets
They are inclined to rape (my new finding after I brought a female kitty home)
They are impatient
They do deceive
They are arrogant
They hate to share things
They are selfish
They do practice eugenic
They like to show off to make their peers feel bad
They are demanding
They can be fake
They fight for their own entertainment and to kill boredom
They are racist (that came as a surprise to me)
They copy each other blindly ( the latest in our community is folding of one front leg because there was a disabled kitty who was doing this)
When they want something they'll destroy things on the way to getting it.
They can be taught what is illegal, but if the owner is not near they'll do it anyways and they cover for each other

animals and human being are not not same... they are programmed the way they are... like a computer is programmed the instruction we put in it...

human being is not an animal... he is responsible for his actions as he/she is well aware about right and wrong...

example is if a bull hit you,, no court will punish him..
if a wall fell on you , you will not hit the wall back...

yeh but in human being the case is different...

If you read all the verses we are discussing here you will notice that brain/mind is one of the biggest things to make Adam different. Allah taught Adams the names and it really is what makes him different.

even animals have brain/mind

we have authority what make us different from other species ...

angels may have authority but they are well aware about it so they cannot go against it.. like sun must give you heat and light must , complete its orbital period... and so on...

the test is about authority not about brain.. what you gona do with the authority will decide what you get... on other words free will of chosing a path ...

although if you find the verses regarding the claim what u make it would be helpful ,, still waiting for it..

Man_of_Faith

And lots of people have their daily drive from the reptile brain.

Aggression, dominance, fear, worship, greed, lust, seeking a mate, but do not forget hierarchical alignment, materialism, jealousy, "survival of the fittest (self-centered and on own kin)" and the "workaholic syndrome" which causes us to go with the flow of what we are doing and be preoccupied and enjoy the mere duty.

It is due to the reptile brain that humans enjoy watching movies portraying violence or matches of martial arts, particularly when they can identify themselves with someone in those, e.g. the hero of the movie.

Want, greed and jealousy will make the human indulge more in order to reach what they want in order to acquire social status for climbing upwards in the hierarchy is desired, every instinct goes hand in hand with each other. The more instincts one succumbs to the more potentially dangerous a being in conjunction with a lacking spirit. Malicious methods seem to be instinctively programmed and are used when the greed and other involved instincts are pushing too high. Malicious methods begin with seemingly innocent and non-violent lies, i.e. "false testimony", one turns their reality to the own advantage.

Dominance begins to show with the desire to win a game. It might seem innocent, but an "innocent' game in which one desire to win is an activation of the instinct. This is also why we should not gamble with someone else when it comes to money because then suddenly more instincts might came into play. When there is a material reward the driving will be extra hard.

Fear might express itself in many ways, but one that might happen on a daily basis is to lie (carry false testimony) because one wishes to avoid consequences. We could connect the "malicious methods" with carrying false testimony and fear because when one sees they are not going to win they might employ falsehood in order to win because they fear. Wars can become awfully cruel because people fear and they portray the threat of reality improperly.

The instinct of worship is elusive, it simply seems to drive one to superstition and it is creating the separate god phenomenon. I have noticed that the desire for religious worship seems almost like an obsession to many people without even ignoring to ponder what kind of use the deity has for it, but the deity is given humanly properties and requires flattering like a human king would, i.e. it becomes hierarchical alignment. With the reptile brain enabled the deity becomes no more than a man on the moon. The instincts of materialism and hierarchical alignment as well as fear are involved in the driving of projecting the material god because what their imagination projects causes fear to them because it is not understandable and the imagination portrays a deity with something they can compare with, i.e. a human king which they can worship, but this king gives them things out of nothing so they draw the conclusion they are of no use to it in return and hence because of its ability they worship it even more and sees it as a being that is great in dominating because of the natural phenomena they see. The worship of divinities has changed over time, but it fundamentally the same as in the past. People cannot explain why they should worship or the logic behind it but still do it and they get emotional if you ask them why. Many people might say they do not worship but they clearly worship anyhow.

The sex drive is not exactly necessary to explain about, it is self-explanatory. But it will cause the person to have fantasies and lusts when beholding a sexually attractive individual and might cause the person to need to discharge the generated lust somehow through various means. It seems like a kind of sexual frustration is generated when the mind is wandering towards the images built up. This instinct is really primitive because it is hard to resist and has to do with mating, and it was made to end in a feeling of pleasantry in order to increase the incitement. The best way to detach oneself from this instinct (if they have this intention) is to not behold features of the opposite sex that might make the mind to wander and to force the mind to render sex distasteful and crude, and to somehow eat foods that will not sponsor the sex drive and to not be too bodily in shape because that sensation might be a factor. The images in the instinct of domination in both directions (being dominated or dominating) will reinforce the sexuality e.g. fantasizing about the ability of another. And their material composition. For someone with the drive but not desiring it it can be enslaving.

Be well
Amenuel

Man_of_Faith

The spirit of man was likely inserted in an already established species on Earth so not created simultaneously. You do not believe in my argument that the Jinn is the bodily, but Quran says the Jinn was created before the Naas and that reveals that the bodily existed before the spirit (of Adam) was placed on its body. Adam is the race of man and not only an individual. Everyone is called children of Adam whereas they are never called children of anyone else except "children of Israel" which is a secret code name. Humans are still to this day referred to as Adam in languages such as Persian/Farsi. Adam might not even have been a particular human individual, but he mainly appears in the parable about the garden of Eden. Each unit of the story is metaphorical for what we should NOT do in this world, it teaches that the indulge in the world grows the sexual attraction of bodies and that we thus cover them starting with our organs of reproduction. We eat from the fruit of all the trees for the whole of our lives which means that we simply have to live off the world in order to make the body persist, but we should not eat of the fruit from the tree of sin and that is when we begin to see the instincts come forth resembled in the story of Adam in more than one way, e.g. being tempted to desire the sin, realizing the sin, preventing the further sinning (covering the body) and covering the sin. The two sons of Adam reveal what causes a person to desire to murder, e.g. jealousy, domination. The tree from which they should not eat is the fruit of desire.

When regarding the narratives it is always important to reflect upon their philosophical teachings more than the actual stories, i.e. "why is it so?"

Be well
Amenuel

Furqan

Salam Imran

Some us mankind use the word Animal in degrading way for Humans, but the Lord has put some of us even lower than Animals in following aya

Q546 There are many jinn and men who have hearts that fail to grasp the truth. We have destined for Hell, those whose eyes fail to see and whose ears fail to hear. They are like cattle. No, they are even less mindful of the right path. It is they who are oblivious.
Hence if a deer was to hear a little tiny crunch of grass crushed by the weight of the hunter, it makes full use of its sensors(hearing,sight,mind)

Animals are not computerized they also have choice, and Intelect, but Mankind is superior

Q638 Every beast that crawls on the earth and every birds that flies with its two wings have formed communities like you. We have left nothing out of the Book. Later, they will be gathered to their Lord.

Ants having Intelect Q2718 Bird brain or Intelect Q2722

reel

i think you are confused in evolution of human being and creation of human being...
and perfection of human being after they accept the test... !

I am guessing you still believe in this kind of creation
https//encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcTrCoUYTexVAM9sdyzmXf-MaGoyETYIdctrTGcgUZc7xTzEfgkI
No worries, I have been there. But verses don't seem to agree with it.

RED is there is any human being before adam in quran is mention?

Don't you ponder why? Hint The slides above. You answered it here though

example is if a bull hit you,, no court will punish him..
if a wall fell on you , you will not hit the wall back...
yeh but in human being the case is different...

the subject is not only 2 31 go through all the verses after that.. something what is apparent according to there , the event took place in which adam achieved what asked from him and angels could not make it , and then God commanded them to give an honour to adam..isnt it...

I don't think we are denying the event of Adam telling the names. I said we can't see it as a competition.

animals and human being are not not same... they are programmed the way they are... like a computer is programmed the instruction we put in it...

Exactly, hence, it would be probably a waste of time for God to write about whether they are being nice or bad in Quran.

human being is not an animal... he is responsible for his actions as he/she is well aware about right and wrong...

But humans can behave like animals. He can deny that he is responsible for his actions and we see that everyday on this planet. One of the reasons why many reject evolution is because it tries to market the misconception that there is nothing wrong in being like an animal.

the test is about authority not about brain.. what you gona do with the authority will decide what you get... on other words free will of chosing a path ...

although if you find the verses regarding the claim what u make it would be helpful ,, still waiting for it..

The test is only for Adam. Angels have no free will. If you do not believe Adam basically is the evolved sane version of blood shedders then there is nothing we can do. Strangely, the perfect human being Adam did slip to "taste the tree". I don't remember seeing it in the reply. So you believe in the incest assumption?

You do not believe in my argument that the Jinn is the bodily

I am interested in seeing signs from different people/places to come to conclusion. I hope you do not mind. I do not reject your claim. I like to go the evaluation way.