THE THREAD - THE VERSES - THE UNDERSTADINGS - THE CONCLUSION
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Salaam Wakas, all,
Thanks for responding.
I still dont see a problem. The act of slw (i.e. to go/turn towards, commitment, attchment, link/bond/connect, follow closely) is done on his stance/position. his stnce/position is attchment/etc. his attachment/etc. is his position/stnce. it does not play a pssive role.
1- MAQAM in an abstract form has never meant HIS stand on positions on some issue or law . It always meant, How he was viewd (by GOD or other), his rank or so.
I am inserting the link to open burhan
http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html
Please point me to where MAQAM has an active role.
2- So the translation would be like this
And take of the rank/how he is viewed/ standing of ibrahim to commit/connect/link to (if you are to do it your way)I have difficulty understanding what that means.
It could be either a physical building, a community/governing structure, order/system, prctice/implementtion of the deen, or non-physicl. Both are intrinsic, and both are required if one wishes to set-up/raise a community/governing structure. This is what is special about Abraham's story in my opinion. He not only manifested it within himself but set-up/raised the structure. e.g. you will never hear of a HJJ prior to Abrham, as this requires special structure, not just one building!
As you know, I do not have a problem with the BAYT of GOD being a structure, because it can be cleaned. Now, if you mean the System of GOD in a non physical sense, then I will have a major problem
The system of GOD is constant. When changes occur to the system of GOD then it stops being GOD's system and becomes Man's system. So, the cleaning is not to GOD's system, it is to Man's sytem so that it becomes GOD's again. The AYAH however talks about cleaning GOD's BAYT and not man's BAYT to becomes GOD's again.
1777 (This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
hence the succession of prophets. They repeatedly told the people how they corrupted (made unclean) The God's law/system etc
No, people left GOD's sytem when they corrupted it. They did not make GOD's sytem unclean. When they clean their systems, then they return to GOD's sytem.
NB please see natural republic, pilgrimmage section for major problems with maqam Ibrahim. it simply is not workable.
http//www.free-minds.org/TNR.zipThanks for the link. Very interesting article and has negatives and positives
The positive
It says that MAQAM IBRAHIM is a place. So, if you accept this article then you accept the MAQAM is a location
The negatives
The AYA that they base their argument about Jerusalem rather than Mecca is 397
In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), IBRAHIM's standing place who enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.The AYA talks about the IBRAHIM's standing place as Plural and not singular and that was the major fault of that article. It assumed a singular location. This supports my argument that I presented earlier that Ibrahim stood in and out and any where around the place. Ibrahim also stood in Jerusalem at the spot that the article talks about. That is another reason that the muslims made of the mosque in Jerusalem a MUSALLA.
please note, i never said its meaning was equal to "acknowledgement", i just said it ws the core
Thanks for clarifying. My major problem with acknowledgement is
1- you ackowledge people who are above you, below you or the same as you. SUJOOD is done always to entities that you consider above you.
2- Sujood always indicates that you are letting the entity that you performing Sujood to, know that you are showing respect. I am not certain if acknowledge does that.Salaam all and have a great Sunday afternoon
hussein
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peace be upon you Hussein,
1- MAQAM in an abstract form has never meant HIS stand on positions on some issue or law . It always meant, How he was viewd (by GOD or other), his rank or so.
Please see 1071. The fact is there are many signs implying a non-physical understanding of maqam. its non-physical meaning is rank/status/position/stance.
Please point me to where MAQAM has an active role.
I dont understand what you mean by active role. According to CofQ, the example you gave of munazzal in 6114 is passive.
Are you saying 'maqamu' in 397 is plural? If so, I could not verify that from the sources I have.
In it (the BYT) are clear signs, the maqamu of Abraham, and whoever enters it (the BYT) will be secure.
the maqam of Abraham is inside the BYT. I ssume you disagree?
Wakas
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PERIODIC PROGRESS REPORT
Can ?Sujood? mean ?submit? rather than ?prostrate? in the context of 6842?
The general view now is that it is possible.
Does God?s house/system need to be cleansed?
Currently uncertain ? more discussion is required.
Is there any support in lexicons/dictionaries to suggest that ?bayt? can be translated as ?system??
The general view now is that ?bayt? can be translated as ?establishment?, which can support physical and non-physical ?salaat?.
Can ?Mathaba? be translated as ?providence??
No evidence has been presented as yet.
Can the concept of ?The house? be understood as a metaphor? And in 2436 where it appears in the plural form?
The general view is that it is possible, and many strongly approve of this.
Does ?Maqam? mean ?physical location?, or ?viewpoint/stance? on something?
Currently uncertain ? although many agree on 'stance' - more discussion is required.
Current general understandings
The verse appears in parts illogical without accepting physical ritual prayer, and understandings are emerging which show that the verse doesn?t necessarily support nor reject physical ritual prayer. -
Salaam Natu, Wakas, Joe, all,
Thanks Nato for the conclusion. I also do appreciate that all were repectful of the people that supported ritual prayer. At times, I saw the term idolator thrown from the beginning. It did not happen here and that is very appreciated.
I do need to address two important points that Wakas and Joe mentioned, as we wrap this discussion up.
Joe said
People cannot make the system unclean, but they can corrupt it? Explain please.
I will give you an example of what I think. GOD's system is the system of the one GOD and the worship of the one GOD. When people worship idols and think that the idols get them closer to GOD, they are no more in GOD's system. They corrupted the existant system and ended up outside of it.
Wakas said
Are you saying 'maqamu' in 397 is plural? If so, I could not verify that from the sources I have.
In it (the BYT) are clear signs, the maqamu of Abraham, and whoever enters it (the BYT) will be secure.
the maqam of Abraham is inside the BYT. I ssume you disagree?
I did look at the Lisan Al Arab and did not find something supporting nor negating that MAQAM is plural. However, I did discover another meaning for MAQAM and that is the place were a person stayed
This understanding supports the many Ayat in the one place where he stayedAs for the house. I consider the yard as part of the house. Another issue would be that the MAQAM is inside, but does not exclude maqam outside.
Take care y'all (for my southern living) and GOD bless you
Hussein
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peace be upon you Hussein, all,
Thanks for progressing to the wrap up.
Your differentiation between being able to corrupt a system, and stating that God's system cannot become unclean is a non-point in my opinion. At best, its extremely weak.
I did look at the Lisan Al Arab and did not find something supporting nor negating that MAQAM is plural. However, I did discover another meaning for MAQAM and that is the place were a person stayed.
I think its clear its singular. This can be seen from its other usage also. Its all very well finding an alternative meaning, but it has to be at least used in other occurrences of maqam.
No-one I know refers to the yard as the house. Has your implied meaning any basis in al quran or the dictionaries?
Wakas
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Salaam Wakas,
I think its clear its singular. This can be seen from its other usage also. Its all very well finding an alternative meaning, but it has to be at least used in other occurrences of maqam.
1071 Relate to them the story of Noah. Behold! he said to his people "O my people, if it be hard on your (mind) that I should stay (with you) MAQAMI and commemorate the signs of Allah,- yet I put my trust in Allah. Get ye then an agreement about your plan and among your partners, so your plan be on to you dark and dubious. Then pass your sentence on me, and give me no respite.
i will need to look the issue of the BAYT further. However, it does not make a difference whether the MAQAM was inside the house, since it could be all the house and not a foot print.
Your differentiation between being able to corrupt a system, and stating that God's system cannot become unclean is a non-point in my opinion. At best, its extremely weak
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Are you suggesting that the people that worship idols are in GOD's system? If you are to clean that system, then are you cleaning GOD's system? or their system?Salaam and have a good day.
Husein
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peace be upon you Hussein,
1071 could be interpreted several ways. In such a situation, one should bring a clear example in which it most likely is the option you mentioned.
i will need to look the issue of the BAYT further. However, it does not make a difference whether the MAQAM was inside the house, since it could be all the house and not a foot print.
So if it doesn't matter if maqam was inside the house, and you're translating maqam as "staying place", that means you're implying Abraham stayed in the house?
If you're going to study BYT, you're only on the tip of the iceberg. For example, Muhammad ws sent to a people who NEVER had a messenger before, thus if Abrham (& his sons) ws in Mecca, how do you explain tht? Why does God call Mecce Bacca? etc.
Are you suggesting that the people that worship idols are in GOD's system? If you are to clean that system, then are you cleaning GOD's system? or their system?
You are extrapolating upon my maqam/stance/position. The fact is God's system (laid down for us) can be corrupted. This is exemplified loads and loads of times in al quran. I cant say more than that.
Wakas
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Salaam Wakas,
Thanks for your points.
1071 could be interpreted several ways. In such a situation, one should bring a clear example in which it most likely is the option you mentioned.
4451 The Righteous (they will be) in a safe place (MAQAM AMEEN)
4452 Among Gardens and Springs;
4453 Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other;
they will stay there2739 Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy place (MAQAMIKA) indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."
4425 How many were the gardens and springs they left behind,
4426 And corn-fields and noble buildings, (MAQAM KAREEM)This last example is a plural MAQAM. The reason is that it comes after all the other plurals, and adresses THEY.
If you're going to study BYT, you're only on the tip of the iceberg. For example, Muhammad ws sent to a people who NEVER had a messenger before, thus if Abrham (& his sons) ws in Mecca, how do you explain tht? Why does God call Mecce Bacca? etc.
I find that the never argument questionable. Please present your AYAT that agree with this assumption.
It is questionable because it goes against this.
1636 For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger,I will leave the BACCA, I know that sometimes people argue because of psalms 847 that talks about the valley of BACCA. One thing I am sure of is that Jerusalem (my hometown) is not in a valley. It and the especially the mosque are on a plateau. Therefore Jerusalem is not BACCA wherever BACCA ends up being located.
Salaam and have a good day
hussein
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Peace Hussein,
4451 The Righteous (they will be) in a safe place (MAQAM AMEEN)
4452 Among Gardens and Springs;
4453 Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other;
they will stay there2739 Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy place (MAQAMIKA) indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."
4425 How many were the gardens and springs they left behind,
4426 And corn-fields and noble buildings, (MAQAM KAREEM)This last example is a plural MAQAM. The reason is that it comes after all the other plurals, and adresses THEY.
This doesn't make any sense. According to your theory, people (plural) cannot leave buildings (plural) and one town (singular) but many people can only leave many buildings and many towns.
The word "maqam" is definitely singular". The arguments that you are presenting only prove that you are trying too hard to make it plural, even at the expense of good sense.
It is questionable because it goes against this.
1636 For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger,See 2846 and 323.
I will leave the BACCA, I know that sometimes people argue because of psalms 847 that talks about the valley of BACCA. One thing I am sure of is that Jerusalem (my hometown) is not in a valley. It and the especially the mosque are on a plateau. Therefore Jerusalem is not BACCA wherever BACCA ends up being located.
The great reading never says that Bacca/"bacca?" is in a valley. Therefore you are making conclusions based on nothing more than the false Psalms. At any rate, I don't think it is important to know where Bacca is (that is if it is a place).
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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M&S Ahmed
How many/much they left (behind) from treed gardens and water springs/wells?
And plants/crops and an honoured/generous position/status?fits perfectly, no extrapolation required.
like i said, no source i have (which normally comments on grammar, e.g. plural/singular) supports it being a plural.
Wakas
ps - thanks for the maqam references but they can also be translated otherwise. fine, place of staying/residence is possible. u never answered, r u saying abraham lived inside the house? is tht y u need maqam to be plural otherwise u know your stance/maqam is compromised?
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Peace,
I will give you an example of what I think. GOD's system is the system of the one GOD and the worship of the one GOD. When people worship idols and think that the idols get them closer to GOD, they are no more in GOD's system. They corrupted the existant system and ended up outside of it.
And thats why when the system is corrupted God sends messengers to Purify the system and to uphold it with their lives.
Why can't a system be cleanses? People try to mislead us from the path of God, but in the world people associate many things to the 'Straight Path', this is why messengers are needed to purify the path and make it clear for the believers.
I just don't see why our duties don't require cleansing or purifying because they do and this is exactly what we are doing now, minimising tradtition and our own ways and adopting the way of the Quran.
The messengers aims were to keep the aim of the way straight and by their examples they made it clear by not adopting wierd traditions and sticking to the basic fundamental principles found in the Quran.
Nural
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Salaam all and thanks for your very informative responses,
Wakas said;
You are extrapolating upon my maqam/stance/position. The fact is God's system (laid down for us) can be corrupted. This is exemplified loads and loads of times in al quran. I cant say more than that.
Please share those with us. Please remember that you need to show unambiguous examples of GOD's system being corrupted and still considered by GOD as his system. This is similar to what you asked me related to MAQAM.
Ayman said
Quote
It is questionable because it goes against this.
1636 For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger,See 2846 and 323.
Thanks for sharing. Please reconcile what seems as a contradiction between the AYAT.
Wakas said
u never answered, r u saying abraham lived inside the house? is tht y u need maqam to be plural otherwise u know your stance/maqam is compromised?
I don't have a problem with that. However, we first need to reslove the AYAT mentioned above to clarify their apparent differences.
Salaam all and have a good day
Hussein
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Salaam brother Ayman,
Ayman said
This doesn't make any sense. According to your theory, people (plural) cannot leave buildings (plural) and one town (singular) but many people can only leave many buildings and many towns.
actually, the issue of plural Maqam comes from my criticism of the article related to MAQAM IBRAHIM in the natural republic
http//www.free-minds.org/TNR.zip .
The article builds it's case on AYA 397 and on one sign only . Yet the AYA itself talks about signs, something that the article ignored.397 In it are Signs Manifest, the Station of Abraham
So, the problem is not mine to explain. It is the problem for whoever wrote that article. He/She cannot make his case on only one sign, when it is plural. Where those signs are, are also the problem of the writer since they made it their case.
In any case, the MAQAM will have to contain many signs, or the MAQAM will have to be many MAQAMS and that is for you guys to decide on how you can imnprove the major deficiecny of that article.
Thanks for pointing it out and I look forward to your helpful comments.
Hussein
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peace be upon you Hussein, all,
You are extrapolating upon my maqam/stance/position. The fact is God's system (laid down for us) can be corrupted. This is exemplified loads and loads of times in al quran. I cant say more than that.
Please share those with me. Please remember that you need to show unambiguous examples, very much as you asked me related to MAQAM.
if the god's system could never be corrupted, then there would be no need for more thn one messenger.
exmples
the children of israel.
275, 3180, 512, 174, 2085-94, 2776, 3225, 4363. also, the reference in which they mde lawful things unlwful nd vice-vers, i cnnot recll it t the moment.din can be changed/divided/altered/corrupted/differentiated/individulised etc - 323-24, 446, 4171, 577, 6159, 3032, 4026, 4213-14, 1096.
2517-18, 2371, 2209, 1688, 42.
Please reconcile what seems as a contradiction between the AYAT.
There is no contradiction whtsoever between the signs. 1636 states every people were sent a messenger. The people whom Muhmmd delivered to had no prior messenger, as stated by 2846 and 323, thus The God sent them Muhammd, a messenger, thus fulfilling 1636. simple.
according to you, Abrahm built a house, stayed in it (no evidence from al qurn or trditional ccounts as far as im aware, in fact contrdicting 1437) and somehow simultaneously dedicated it to The God, prayed in the direction of it, people from all over went into it, others and he circuited his own house etc and it lasted ~5000 years (even though trditionl accounts proves it hs been destroyed nd rebuilt several times), everyone in his community died thus a new community formed who had no prior messenger, Moses/Jesus etc made HJJ to so such a house but al quran neglected to mention it, no independent source mentions Abraham being in Mecca, even though he is one of the most revered charcters of the region, "Mecca" is never heard of prior to Islam, "Kabba" is never herd of prior to Islam..... what more do you want?
397 In it are Signs Manifest, the Station of Abraham
So, the problem is not mine to explain. It is the problem for whoever wrote that article. He/She cannot make his case on only one sign, when it is plural. Where those signs are, are also the problem of the writer since they made it their case.
In any case, the MAQAM will have to contain many signs, or the MAQAM will have to be many MAQAMS and that is for you guys to decide on how you can imnprove the major deficiecny of that article.
please clarify, as i dont understand your point.
"In it (the BYT)..." do you disagree as to what the it is referring to? is tht ur point?Lastly, i just noticed this...
The God mentions the first 'house' was in Bacca , the only thing I know of with a similar name is Bacca valley. An amazing coincidence, considering, the god states Abrhm resided in a valley/biwadin in .
What more do you want?
Wakas
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Salaam Wakas,
Thanks for your responses. You said
if the god's system could never be corrupted, then there would be no need for more thn one messenger.
exmples
the children of israel.
275, 3180, 512, 174, 2085-94, 2776, 3225, 4363. also, the reference in which they mde lawful things unlwful nd vice-vers, i cnnot recll it t the moment.din can be changed/divided/altered/corrupted/differentiated/individulised etc - 323-24, 446, 4171, 577, 6159, 3032, 4026, 4213-14, 1096.
2517-18, 2371, 2209, 1688, 42.
thanks for the response, but that is not what I asked for. I will repost what I asked for and highlight the most important part that your answer did not address
Please share those with us. Please remember that you need to show unambiguous examples of GOD's system being corrupted and still considered by GOD as his system
All the examples that you presented are examples of corruption and I went through them all. However, non of them says that the system remains GOD's system. In fact, the ones that deal with DEEN are full of Your Deen, his DEEN and their Deen.
please clarify, as i dont understand your point.
"In it (the BYT)..." do you disagree as to what the it is referring to? is tht ur point?The AYA says In him (the house) are clear signs Maqam Ibrahim
The way I understand it is that there are MANY SIGNS in the house and that those signs are also either MAQAM IBRAHIM or in MAQAM IBRAHIM. So I expected of the article to present many signs and they presented only one. This decreased the article's credibility to me. Where are the other signs? and how do they relate to the MAQAM? If they are in Jerusalem?
Brother Ayman wrote this
The great reading never says that Bacca/"bacca?" is in a valley. Therefore you are making conclusions based on nothing more than the false Psalms. At any rate, I don't think it is important to know where Bacca is (that is if it is a place).
And brother Wakas this
Abrahm built a house, stayed in it (no evidence from al qurn or trditional ccounts as far as im aware, in fact contrdicting 1437) and somehow simultaneously dedicated it to The God, prayed in the direction of it, people from all over went into it, others and he circuited his own house etc and it lasted ~5000 years (even though trditionl accounts proves it hs been destroyed nd rebuilt several times), everyone in his community died thus a new community formed who had no prior messenger, Moses/Jesus etc made HJJ to so such a house but al quran neglected to mention it, no independent source mentions Abraham being in Mecca, even though he is one of the most revered charcters of the region, "Mecca" is never heard of prior to Islam, "Kabba" is never herd of prior to Islam..... what more do you want?
And the response actually comes from Brother Wakas here
The God mentions the first 'house' was in Bacca , the only thing I know of with a similar name is Bacca valley. An amazing coincidence, considering, the god states Abrhm resided in a valley/biwadin in
I do apprecaite it brother Wakas for the response. i am actually going to post all of 1437 to clarify my point
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.Well another example that proves that Jerusalem was not the place
1- Jerusalem is not in a valley
2- The valleys around Jerusalem had cultivation in them for thousands of years.Take care y'all and have a great day
Hussein
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peace Hussein,
However, non of them says that the system remains GOD's system.
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=corrupt
corrupt
Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.
Venal; dishonest a corrupt mayor.
Containing errors or alterations, as a text a corrupt translation.
Archaic. Tainted; putrid.Brother Ayman and I never stated we believe the first house / maqam Abraham is in Jerusalem. (as far as I'm aware)
Wakas
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Peace all,
Sujud is not a physical manifestation. Here is a brief analysis
I have found sa-la-ma used in the Qur'aan for mankind who has the gift of free will to surrender. I note in 383 & 1315 the addition of the words willingly and unwilling since all creation there as been included. I also note the malaika sujud and other inanimate things sujud. They have no free will to surrender.
Sa-ja-da=submit, submission = (English) The state of being submissive; acknowledgement of inferiority or dependence; humble or SUPPLIANT BEHAVIOR; meekness; resignation. The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; OBEDIENCE; COMPLIANCE.
Sa-la-ma = surrender= (English) To give up possession of; to yield; to resign; as, TO SURRENDER A RIGHT, PRIVILEGE, OR ADVANTAGE. give up or agree to FOREGO to the power or possession of another, surrender to something, to allow yourself to be controlled or influenced by something, to say officially that you want to stop fighting because you realize that YOU CANNOT WIN.
The obvious outcome of surrender is peace and security. In my humble understanding the two words are clearly not synonyms. Allah?s forces have been made submissive to mankind. For mankind, the inheritors of the Earth, we surrender our free will for the Lord of the Worlds and our submissions belong to Allah alone (7218 ).
As Aidid Safar points out there is no ?wa? in 2125 rather ?is? as the connecting term and I agree. There is no bowing down and prostrating. It is better rendered as humbly submit or incline/bend towards submission. I don?t find any useless rituals or unexplained symbolism in the reading. I keep reminding myself that a universal timeless message from the Creator who knows all the subtle differences within us would necessarily be all inclusive and non restrictive of diversification. The guidance in the message removes man-made shackles. If one reflects on what would unite I find unity as ?none? rather than all joining ?one?. No religion. Any ritual would become a marker.
The guidance teaches us how to run a society, unite as brothers and sisters and cause ourselves to grow, not how to define or organize a religion. We are to be convinced ?with ? His signs not ?in? His signs. We act ?with? His signs. It?s great to choose a point or verse of contention but perhaps we have jumped ahead. For example Bismillah translated by some as ?In the name of Allah? or ?With the name of God?. My research on the usage of this repeated phrase in ayyats where the phrase
?
(La) Yadhzkurunasmallahi alayhaIs saying ?(they do not) remember the descriptions or designations of God over/upon it?. It seems that the surahs are beginning with ?With The Descriptions/Designations of God? and in the surahs we are being told to ?remember God?s descriptions? whenever we ?use? any of the provisions He has given us. If we make a list of His descriptions over the risq we can come up with i.e., do not waste them, share them, do not kill game when they are forbidden, do not acquire them illegally, be fair and equitable when measuring them, do not eat filth, etc. I don?t think we have even yet translated bismillah correctly. God does not have names. This of course is only my understanding. Any input will be sincerely appreciated.
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Peace.
Brother Hussein, this thread has become dormant for a while - would you say now that 2125 doesn't necessarily point to physical ritual prayer? if not, then there's no problem, please highlight in a post following this if you see any ways (if any) in which this verse may not lead to a physical ritual worship, so that the discussion may progress. If not then we shall I shall post a conclusion for 2125 and we shall move on to the next verse, God willing.
By the way, I'd like to thank all brothers and sisters for working so hard in this thread, may God give us all success.
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Salaam
I doubt he will come back ( He was the only one who believed in ritual prayer and contributed to the discussion. If he doesn't come back then there's going to be hardly any activity here (
