Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
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LUt's speech is Lut's speech then and there.He was not giving a preaching from a pulpit saying God's this and God that, he was in a very dangerous position as a leader of a group and trying to hold a violent assault on his guests and I doubt very much that he was setting doctrine there, because if he was, what is the excuse to offer his own daughters to the lust and hateful handling of the assaulters. Was he seriously doing that? Was he going to hnd his won daughters to the criminals that came to his house demanding that he surrenders his guests so that the mob could have their whim?
My assessment and and it is supported by the facts was that he was winning times. He was not more going to give up his daughters than he was going to delivir his guests . He knew the assaulters would not take his daughters. So he was traying to save the others. He was winning time and indeed the proof that his handling of the affair ws right is that indeed he saved his guests and he did not endanger his daughters.
But again what he said was not in order to preach but in order to save the people.
That said, about whether the"homosexuality is inborn or acquired" we are again the mania of the one size fits all. Each person is each person, for some it may be inborn and for some not. We cannot say for all people and forever that it is inborn or it is not invborn, each person has his or her own conditionings, of whatever kind, and his or her experiences. Adn as long and we do not accept that that is the case we are attempting to decree something for people who are not similar and decreeing that they are this or that nd that tht is not disputable. And that is also the case of each person in whatever domain, each one is each one, not a piece in a set.
On the other hand sex, as so many other things, is mostly in the head, and brain evolves along life, it is not fixed at birth.
One last thing, is what a great person Lut .How difficult it was for whim to deal in such a situation as he was and He did. I feel very much for him and think that in the noise of the talk about homo or not homo his courage and stamina in handling such a situation he has not bene duly valued. He ws a very courageous man and a very dedicated prophet. May God have his in his intimacy and may his examle be a soure of strength for us all.
Salaam
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Thanks for the post Abdul-Hadi,
The science on the causes of homosexuality is very much in its infancy; the extent of psychological and genetic influences is currently indeterminable to a reasonable degree of certainty. And I should also point out that the presence of behavioural characteristics in the natural world does not conclusively imply that the factors governing their behaviour are extendable to homo sapiens.
Notwithstanding this, there is a clear indication in the Quran that homosexuality is described as a "blasphemy."
That's not to say that the people of L were punished only on account of their homosexuality, but it certainly was mentioned as being a contributing factor to their destruction.
It's interesting to note that God ( ) not once condemns homosexuality explicitly, it is in fact L who describes homosexuality as a "blasphemy." However, this begs the question on whose behalf was L speaking when he delivered his message? Surely he received his instructions from God.
There is one verse, however, which can be taken to allude to homosexuality wherein God is speaking in the first person 2174. The key word in this verse is , which, among other things, can be taken to allude to homosexuality, but perhaps not exclusively.
Thank you for thanking me, uq! sun
Without a direct prohibition in the complete set of instructions for the deen, what is the best course of action? Allusion isn't very clear, and AQ is instructions of clarity--as detailed as they need to be.
The following is intended as a thought experiment--not as a straw man argument. Imagine dancing instead of homosexual acts. Imagine if most people didn't dance, and it was socially unacceptable. It is something that two men or two women could do. It isn't mentioned in AQ. Could anyone rightfully say that the Almighty made dancing forbidden, or that dancers have no place as submitters or believers? hmm Why would one take one position for one scenario and a different position for the other?
The difficulty with taking what the Prophet Lot (peace upon all Prophets) said as meaning referring to homosexual acts in 780 is that it doesn't vibe with existing physical evidence. Maybe Lot was not referring to homosexuals/homosexual acts after all, or maybe Lot was stating what he ~believed~ to be true.
Prophets recieved instructions from the Almighty, but they still sometimes made mistakes.
604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."
1145 And Noah called on his Lord, and he said "My Lord, my son is from my family, and your promise is the truth, and you are the Wisest of all Judges."
1146 He said "O Noah, he is not from your family, he was of an unrighteous deed, so do not ask what you have no knowledge of. I advise you not to be of the ignorant."
1147 He said "My Lord, I seek refuge with You from asking You what I do not have knowledge of. And if You do not forgive me and have mercy on me, I will be of the losers!"3822 When they entered upon David, he was startled by them. They said "Have no fear. We are two who have disputed, and one has wronged the other, so judge between us with the truth, and do not wrong us, and guide us to the right path."
3823 "This is my brother and he owns ninety-nine lambs, while I own one lamb; so he said to me "'Let me take care of it' and he pressured me."
3824 He said "He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few." And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling, and repented.
3825 So We forgave him in this matter. And for him with Us is a near position, and a beautiful abode.ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace Abdul-Hadi.
There is some complexity here. What do you mean by "Homosexuality"?
If one separates the feeling from the action, then there are two types at least.
1- A person who has a feeling/attraction towards the same gender.
2-A person who "actions" the thoughts /feeling...etc by breaking GOD s commands.
GOD in His wisdom, distinguishes between the thought/feeling and the action.
What Qoran seems to be saying is "Do not commit adultery"? GOD is talking to all kinds of people, Homosexuals, heterosexuals...etc..
GOD is also saying two people ( all the examples in the Qoran are a male and a female) need a contract/mutual agreement to commit to a relationship ( i.e marriage) and engage sexually in that relationship.Humans being weak, have feelings for different people even when they are committed to a partner. However, taking action towards committing "adultery" with another person ( that is not your partner) you have feelings/attraction towards is simply forbidden by Allah.
As for marriage between the same gender, I cannot find a single case for it in Qoran. Therefore a true believer should withhold from actioning his/her feelings and seek help from their creator .
Having said that, everyone who commits a sin any sin and repents, will find GOD Forgiver most Merciful.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Peace Abdul-Hadi.
There is some complexity here. What do you mean by "Homosexuality"?
The dictionary definition, attraction to the same gender.
If one separates the feeling from the action, then there are two types at least.
1- A person who has a feeling/attraction towards the same gender.
2-A person who "actions" the thoughts /feeling...etc by breaking GOD s commands.
The breaking GOD's commands part was only shown when people lustfully approached others and/or left their spouses in doing so. This is hardly an indictment of all homosexual acts/relationships.
GOD in His wisdom, distinguishes between the thought/feeling and the action.
What Qoran seems to be saying is "Do not commit adultery"? GOD is talking to all kinds of people, Homosexuals, heterosexuals...etc..
GOD is also saying two people ( all the examples in the Qoran are a male and a female) need a contract/mutual agreement to commit to a relationship ( i.e marriage) and engage sexually in that relationship.And yet, there are provisions for what is "beyond this" in 424. Homosexual relationships fall neatly into this category. All people should of course respect marriage and their commitments. Adultery is clearly an evil that is to be avoided.
Humans being weak, have feelings for different people even when they are committed to a partner. However, taking action towards committing "adultery" with another person ( that is not your partner) you have feelings/attraction towards is simply forbidden by Allah.
As for marriage between the same gender, I cannot find a single case for it in Qoran. Therefore a true believer should withhold from actioning his/her feelings and seek help from their creator .Should a true believer also abstain from singing, dancing and wrestling, since there is not a single case for these in AQ? In 424 homosexual relationships are beyond what is mentioned and thus fall within a category of what is allowed.
Having said that, everyone who commits a sin any sin and repents, will find GOD Forgiver most Merciful.
GOD bless you.
Peace.422 And do not marry who your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and an evil path.
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the emancipated from the women-except those committed to by your oath-is God's decree over you. And it is permitted for you to seek beyond this category that you employ your wealth, to be emancipated, not for illicit sex. So, for those of them you find pleasing, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation; and there is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
If one accepts the Qur'an to be enough for a believer, containing all that is needed for the deen and fully detailed AND one sees that something isn't prohibited, who are we to create rules? hmm
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace Abdul Hadi.
I disagree with you,when you say,quote
And yet, there are provisions for what is "beyond this" in 424. Homosexual relationships fall neatly into this category....
With that kind of reasoning ,one would also say 423 has not prohibited marriage to brother/uncles...etc Hence a homosexual can marry his brother/uncle....
Qoran does not instruct any "same sex" marriage,full stop.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
A man's body is not designed for another man's body and a woman's body is not designed for aother woman's body. It is in the design.
Be well
Amenuel -
Greetings and Peace, all group
Peace Abdul Hadi.
I disagree with you,when you say,quote
And yet, there are provisions for what is "beyond this" in 424. Homosexual relationships fall neatly into this category....
With that kind of reasoning ,one would also say 423 has not prohibited marriage to brother/uncles...etc Hence a homosexual can marry his brother/uncle....
Qoran does not instruct any "same sex" marriage,full stop.
GOD bless you.
Peace.If homosexual relationships are not beyond what is listed in 422-24, where is it located? It is either there or it is not there, and it is not there; therefore it is what is beyond what is listed. It is a binary decision, and no great leap of logic is required. Incestuous homosexual marriages is a slippery slope argument (a logical fallacy)--and has it ever been an issue anyway?
It is demonstrably false that something has to be in AQ to be permitted. Better take music, dancing, etc out of the life of any that feel that way. In fact, typing on a computer is downright suspicious too!
By falling under the "...it is permitted for you to seek beyond this category..." in 424, same sex marriages are permitted, even if not expressly mentioned. Nowhere are they prohibited in AQ. If a same sex couple wanted to be married, anyone preventing them would be oppressing them AND promoting vice.
All are entitled to their own best understanding--and the consequences of their actions.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
A man's body is not designed for another man's body and a woman's body is not designed for aother woman's body. It is in the design.
Be well
AmenuelIn terms of reproduction, you are correct. In terms of accommodation, this is not technically correct--the best type of correct! There are few if any things that homosexual couples do that heterosexual couples do not. Keeping things clinical and not too graphic, kissing, cunnilingus, anilingus, fellatio, anal sex (including pegging), mutual masturbation, frottage, BDSM, toys, etc are some possibilities even before considering the implications of body modification/surgery. There is nothing new under the sun.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
In terms of reproduction, you are correct. In terms of accommodation, this is not technically correct--the best type of correct! There are few if any things that homosexual couples do that heterosexual couples do not. Keeping things clinical and not too graphic, kissing, cunnilingus, anilingus, fellatio, anal sex (including pegging), mutual masturbation, frottage, BDSM, toys, etc are some possibilities even before considering the implications of body modification/surgery. There is nothing new under the sun.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Are you homosexual?
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It is demonstrably false that something has to be in AQ to be permitted. Better take music, dancing, etc out of the life of any that feel that way. In fact, typing on a computer is downright suspicious too!
you can sing with you brother /sister /uncle /wife
you can dance with your brother sister/uncle /wife (infront of everybody)
you can use computer with your brother/sister/uncle/wifecan you also do sex with your uncle /brother /sister /wife...? only exception you have is with your wife .. and even with your wife you cannot do it openly like dancing singing and typing...
now come to to the basic part
you can sing/dance/type computer with your friend and there is nobody who will say you anything ...
if you do sex with your friend , how would his father /brother or everybody else feel?
will they stop you guys for doing it?your examples are showing the stage of ultimate weakness of your claim ... very poor kinda example i have ever seen...
peace
god bless you towards right path -
It is demonstrably false that something has to be in AQ to be permitted. Better take music, dancing, etc out of the life of any that feel that way. In fact, typing on a computer is downright suspicious too!
Nay Abdul-Hadi, Quran is a book of guidance, dance, music and typing on a computer
are not part of guidance.Are you homosexual?
Irrelevant and off topic.
It's interesting to note that God ( ) not once condemns homosexuality explicitly,
True
there are different human beings so we should not forbid if somebody have a nature of thief, rapist , killer, or whatever... becoz God created them different...
Peace imrankhawaja, the thief, rapist and killer, are all clear prohibitions from Allah.
peace
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Peace imrankhawaja, the thief, rapist and killer, are all clear prohibitions from Allah.
peace
yes brother , same like the clear prohibition of what nation of lot was doing ... which cause them azab from God...
what else is more clear ...
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brother hawk this special offtopic thingie for you...
actually i m a thief can somebody prove me logically what is the disadvantage in it for my self.. ?
or can some body prove it wrong logically for me... how its wrong/unbenificent for me?i asked this once before on some arguments most of the members did not understand it at the first instant but take your time .. think about my question and let me know... just think we are dealing here without any religious approach... put holy books at the side at the moment
so can somebody prove rape/ theft/ killing is bad for me logically?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
you can sing with you brother /sister /uncle /wife
you can dance with your brother sister/uncle /wife (infront of everybody)
you can use computer with your brother/sister/uncle/wifecan you also do sex with your uncle /brother /sister /wife...? only exception you have is with your wife .. and even with your wife you cannot do it openly like dancing singing and typing...
now come to to the basic part
you can sing/dance/type computer with your friend and there is nobody who will say you anything ...
if you do sex with your friend , how would his father /brother or everybody else feel?
will they stop you guys for doing it?your examples are showing the stage of ultimate weakness of your claim ... very poor kinda example i have ever seen...
peace
god bless you towards right pathIf the logic and evidences presented seem to weigh heavier on one side of an issue than another, it may be that way because it is true.
Are you saying that a thing is allowed only if expressly mentioned in matters dealing with sex, but in all other cases a thing is allowed if not disallowed? rotfl Apply the same standard to all things. Why the emphasis on sex, and who told you to do this?A person can sing with a friend, dance with a friend, use a computer with a friend, and marry a friend. And once married, sexual relations are okay with that friend. Since homosexual acts can't produce offspring, homosexual incest between consenting adults is a (pardon the pun) nonissue.
How others might feel is unimportant when it comes to the deen. If two consenting adults want to form a permanent bond, any haters can step aside and hate--they aren't part of the relationship anyway. Life isn't a popularity contest, and following what the majority think is not necessarily a great plan.
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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A man's body is not designed for another man's body and a woman's body is not designed for aother woman's body. It is in the design.
Be well
AmenuelIt is also in the design that some people are born gay.
Being/Rab/Is Who Is (or whatever you call The One who creates) doesn't make mistakes.brother hawk this special offtopic thingie for you...
actually i m a thief can somebody prove me logically what is the disadvantage in it for my self.. ?
or can some body prove it wrong logically for me... how its wrong/unbenificent for me?i asked this once before on some arguments most of the members did not understand it at the first instant but take your time .. think about my question and let me know... just think we are dealing here without any religious approach... put holy books at the side at the moment
so can somebody prove rape/ theft/ killing is bad for me logically?
I really don't understand your link between gays and murderers/thieves/rapists/etc.
- No one is born a thief/murderer/rapist, being gay is not a choice
- Killing/raping/stealing/etc disadvantages others, being gay does not disadvantage others
What exactly is the crime for a born gay person that we have to judge him/her?
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peace,
Bender, it is a fact no-one is born "gay" (or "heterosexual" for that matter). They have done multiple studies on genetically identical twins, one of whom is homosexual and the other heterosexual.
The latest science (afaik) considers it a combination of nature/genes AND nurture/environment.
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actually i m a thief can somebody prove me logically what is the
disadvantage in it for my self.. ? or can some body prove it wrong logically for me...
how its wrong/unbenificent for me?so can somebody prove rape/ theft/ killing
is bad for me logically?too easy, Maybe ok for you but for society not cool. hmm
p.s. Islam imbues personal growth which includes societal behavior that is
best for all. yes... put holy books at the side at the moment
Nope nope
police
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peace,
Bender, it is a fact no-one is born "gay" (or "heterosexual" for that matter).
for the most part I agree with that. I have always pointed out the those labels, hetero homo are just that, labels to put people into boxes. No one is boxable, in the sme way that no one is predestined philantropist or usurper...Although for different people it may be easier to become this or that.
On the othe hand there are indeed people who physiollogically are explainably attracted to same sex through hormonal or organic configuration.
It ha become a dogma that homo are born, that, as I say, may be true for a few, but I do know and I have seen it personally that people can turn "homo" or "hethero". Psychology has a lot to do with that and early and very early infancy experiences also exlain many things. When we get into that of course, we may find that in fact some people even if it is not inborn cannot avoid not being this or that, but that does not happen because it is innate, but because life experiences may have conditionned them to the point that they cannot escape it, and the only way to cling to emotional balance is to make do with what one has and has had and not what one chose if one were at point zero and we are never at point zero.
For instance many women turn lesbians, not because they are born, but because they have given up trying to make a loyal an real partnership with a male and still cling to the ideal of pertnership.
I am tired of hearing the typical "when I was a child I liked to play with dolls" from the mouth of male homos... I was a girl and I did not like to play with dolls, I hated them, it seems since the time I tried to see what they had inside and found they were empty and that, I was told, was the first time I had a doll in my hands.
Anybody can become a homo if pushed hard enough. Some do not need to be pushed, just morbo will do it.
At fault many times is not the person who opts for homo but the society which forces roles into persons which in fact cripple those persons, ll under the pretext of feminity or masculinity.
Ironically, many of those who decry homosexuality are also the ones who push decidedly to it by insisting on "feminity" and " "masculinity" dogmas like "women are like this and that" and "men are like this or that" or a man is man and so many social disciplining along sex lines.
Salaam
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peace,
Bender, it is a fact no-one is born "gay" (or "heterosexual" for that matter). They have done multiple studies on genetically identical twins, one of whom is homosexual and the other heterosexual.
The latest science (afaik) considers it a combination of nature/genes AND nurture/environment.
Red Does this not imply that it is inborn?
There are tens of theories and there is no real consensus yet in the scientific world.What I know is that people do not choose what kind of sexual preference they have (I am not talking about the "experimental people" so there must be something in the body/mind/soul/whatever that triggers this preference.
Blue I don't believe this has anything to do with the origin. I think that nurture/environment can work as a stimulator or katalysator for something that is already there.
Anybody can become a homo if pushed hard enough. Some do not need to be pushed, just morbo will do it.
I can't speak for every hetero but I know for sure that there is nothing in this world that can push me to become a homosexual
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Not now, may be when you are older and beyond the more experimental age wherever that age ends, and like we all do agree there are people more prone than others to everything. People more set in their ways, wrong or right than others, will be less likely to change to nything else, but on the other hand sex is in the mind, attraction is in the mind and there is a lot that can be done to anybody's mind.
Salaam
