Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
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Agreed (assuming by "sight" you meant 'judgment'!
Specifically when the prejudiced party has neither scientific, nor scriptural basis to stand upon.May I ask where does your God encourage homosexuality ?
My God is also your God.
You mean where in the quran? -
My God is also your God.
Not necessarily !
My worldview has it that God does not promote immorality.
You mean where in the quran?
As I said before, I don't see the Quran espousing your belief. But please do enlighten my ignorance.
Whenever you feel like it
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Thank you so much for answering my call to try to understand and answer, and I mean it and i appreciate, but, brother , I still dont see punishment for homosexualitu in that verse anywhere. I only see condemnation of adultery and promiscuity
How can God tell us to trouble them until they repent if they can't change their nature?
Maybe because the verse is not talking ablut homosexuality but about adultery?Why hasn't got the Quran a word for homosexuality? You have for thief, for adulterer, for murderer...
Btw I was being sarcastic with the "defective" adjective, i thought it was obvious.
Anyway, that is my point, and I dont expect everybody to share my point so I will leave the topic...
May God guide us all to the truth and best peace
Salam,
it's right there. I'll try to explain more precisely, God-willing, others will understand.
415 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring
four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness,
then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates
their lives, or God makes for them a way out.416 And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall
trouble them. If they repent and reform, then leave them alone.
God is Redeemer, Merciful.So in the two verses it's regarding lewdness. "Women who commit lewdness" so we know it's an act and not only talking about sexual desire etc. but acting upon it.
We know that lewdness can be many things; among it we can include homosexual acts. But which kind of lewdness are the verses about? In 415 we are only told women, not any numbers etc.Let's continue to next verse 416.
416 And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall
trouble them. If they repent and reform, then leave them alone.
God is Redeemer, Merciful.So it becomes more clear in the next verse which lewdness these verses are about.
- "And" means it's a continuation of verse 415, so it's still same subject.
- The strongest proof it's about homosexuality is that it says "the two men", instead of "the men" like previous verse when it said "the women". In which way can two men commit lewdness? Homosexuality.
- "It" meaning lewdness.
- Reform. You might disagree on this one, but someone who's an homosexual needs to reform, while adulterers need to stop.
To wrap it up, it becomes VERY clear from verse 416 (the two men instead of the men) that these verses are regarding those who commit homosexual acts.
THE TWO MEN
Salam
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Not necessarily !
For sure He is, my God is God of everything.
My worldview has it that God does not promote immorality.
Mine too.
As I said before, I don't see the Quran espousing your belief. But please do enlighten my ignorance.
Whenever you feel like it
Like I said to Imran, you and I probably understand the quran differently, so it's actually useless to bring in the quran.
But I like to know your opinion about the next 2 verses (the red parts), I also like to see how Imran, Rekkd and A Submitter read those verses
2221
2432
btw I understand those verses totally different from the popular view, but I have a feeling that some of you will have some trouble to make this fit.
For me the next couple of verses are enough to understand that I have nothing to say in His decisions, He knows better than me.
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Like I said to Imran, you and I probably understand the quran differently, so
Howcome ?!
it's actually useless to bring in the quran.
Useless said he )
But I like to know your opinion about the next 2 verses (the red parts), I also like to see how Imran, Rekkd and A Submitter read those verses
2221
2432
btw I understand those verses totally different from the popular view, but I have a feeling that some of you will have some trouble to make this fit.
For me the next couple of verses are enough to understand that I have nothing to say in His decisions, He knows better than me.
None of these passages address the issue in question, bender ! nope
Well.... unless you -deliberately- mistranslate tempt
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Howcome ?!
We are different people
Useless said he
Yes useless in such discussion.
None of these passages address the issue in question, bender ! nope
Well.... unless you -deliberately- mistranslate tempt
I told you I had a feeling that you would have some trouble with these verses.
And this is one of the reasons I think bringing in the quran is useless in such discussions.The question was not how I mistranslate them, I know how I misunderstand those verses, I was more interested in your non-mistranslated opinion.
Let's see if the others also have some trouble in translating the red parts. -
416 And the two men
Yes, you are right, submitter.
" and the two (masc dual) who commit it AMONG YOU "
Quran here is speaking to believing MEN (in specific).
Which is why 'YOUR WOMENfolk' got mentioned aforetime.Peace -- the above is FALSE! TWO MEN is written exactly thus...
2282 ... so if not being dual rajulayni/menfolk two ...
1676... menfolk two one of them dumb ...
1832 and strikes/shows for them similitude of menfolk two
2815 ... so found therein menfolk two415 and the ones who (feminine pl.) commit al-fishata/the immorality from nisakum/womenfolk yours...
416 wa-alladhni/and the two (i.e. any two any sex; mf; ff; mm) who ... -
Peace -- the above is FALSE! TWO MEN is written exactly thus...
2282 ... so if not being dual rajulayni/menfolk two ...
1676... menfolk two one of them dumb ...
1832 and strikes/shows for them similitude of menfolk two
2815 ... so found therein menfolk two415 and the ones who (feminine pl.) commit al-fishata/the immorality from nisakum/womenfolk yours...
416 wa-alladhni/and the two (i.e. any two any sex; mf; ff; mm) who ...(alladhni) - the dual form of (alladi) - is linguistically used in reference to a masculine dual noun.
Nevertheless, the author of the Quran is addressing MEN, as far as context is concerned.
" and the two (masc dual) who commit it AMONG YOU
Quran here is speaking to believing MEN in specific
Which is why 'YOUR WOMENfolk' got mentioned aforetime.And those who commit 'fahichah' AMONG YOUR WOMEN
All-knowing indeed.
salam
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Peace -- the above is FALSE! TWO MEN is written exactly thus...
2282 ... so if not being dual rajulayni/menfolk two ...
1676... menfolk two one of them dumb ...
1832 and strikes/shows for them similitude of menfolk two
2815 ... so found therein menfolk two415 and the ones who (feminine pl.) commit al-fishata/the immorality from nisakum/womenfolk yours...
416 wa-alladhni/and the two (i.e. any two any sex; mf; ff; mm) who ...Thank you so much! They are "two" people who could be 2 men or a man and a woman. That is why i dont seee homosexuality here... Because if we see homosexuality here then going to 235 Adam is indeed with a Steve rotfl
And why do we apply the later dual to the plural before changing it? I am not well versed in Arabic but first time I see something like this
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You are so lucky, boys, the Quran is all addressed to you. Why did not God send a Quran for women ? '(
The Quran is an inspired memorandum sent for Adamites en masse. It does address women.
However, in this case, it is addressing men in specific. The same goes in context of war, etc...It's not a sign of superiority, but responsibility.
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(alladhni) - the dual form of (alladi) - is linguistically used in reference to a masculine dual noun.
Nevertheless, the author of the Quran is addressing MEN, as far as context is concerned.
No.
23 alladhna/the ones (pl. any sex)
416 wa-alladhni/and the two (any two; any sex)
2191 wa-allat/and the one (any female)
4617 and the one (anyone; any sex) said to parents dual said person uff!Again if applicable TWO MEN would be written exactly thus...
2282 ... so if not being dual rajulayni/menfolk two farajulun/so man wa-im'ra-atni/and women two
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Again )
Two different parties getting two different penalties for committing the same criminal act
And those (fem.) who commit 'fahichah' AMONG YOUR WOMEN, penalty X as follows...
And the two (masc.) who commit IT AMONG YOU , penalty Y as follows...
Hope this helps.
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Again
Hope this helps.
Actually it doesn't. Either "you" has the only meaning of "men" either dual masculine is only "2 male" unless you want to read it like that punishing people for something you can't even tell 100%.
and, excuse me but ... are you telling me women can not administrate justice because "men" have that respondability (not superiority, as you said) and so "in this context" we are not addressed?. Can't women rule?
I want a female Quran > It is unfair
Man, I am absolutely reading a very different book from yours...
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Peace -- the above is FALSE! TWO MEN is written exactly thus...
2282 ... so if not being dual rajulayni/menfolk two ...
1676... menfolk two one of them dumb ...
1832 and strikes/shows for them similitude of menfolk two
2815 ... so found therein menfolk two415 and the ones who (feminine pl.) commit al-fishata/the immorality from nisakum/womenfolk yours...
416 wa-alladhni/and the two (i.e. any two any sex; mf; ff; mm) who ...Indeed.
Also this is addressed not to men but to the same addressee that is mentioned at the beginning of the sura and which has not changed. The women are not of any men but the women of the samongst the people, also the women of the women. The fact that it speaks about women does not mean that the addresse has changed, in the same way as if it said "your men", your men are the men of the group.
Those determined to make 4.15. and 4.16 refer to homosexual behaviour have no grounds for that. In 4.15 the plural is feminine but nowhere is it hinted that the fahisha that is mentionned is of women with each other or in group. It refers to any and all women that regularly commit fahisha since the verb is uncompleted action, fahisha of whatever kind. One category of women who fit perfectly the formulation are prostitutes. That understood, it is logical to understand that 4.16 is speaking of the prostitute and the client.
The fahisha spoken of here is soliciting or obvious things like that, not zina, since zina is not mentionned and fahisha is a much wider category than zina and zina is already dealt with elsewhere. But the four witnesses required in this aya are not required to testify for zina but to testify for fahisha. And the women for whom that testimony is given are to be put into the houses (taken off the street) till they get another means of living or till they die.
The clients of prostitutes have never been subjected to any
rebuke or anything like that till the modern Swedish law which makes them punishable, but the Qur'an contrary to long tradition everywhere and closer to the Swedish law, on the other hand says not to let them get away with it without rebuking them and calling them to order.Societies have always pried on the prostitues but left clients enjoy the best (or rather worst) of both worlds.
No hint that these two ayas refer in any particular way to homosexual behaviour with exclusion of heterosexual behaviour. NO HINT AT ALL.
Salaam
Salaam
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Actually it doesn't. Either "you" has the only meaning of "men" either dual masculine is only "2 male" unless you want to read it like that punishing people for something you can't even tell 100%.
and, excuse me but ... are you telling me women can not administrate justice because "men" have that respondability (not superiority, as you said) and so "in this context" we are not addressed?. Can't women rule?
I want a female Quran >( It is unfair
Man, I am absolutely reading a very different book from yours...
It is an inconsistent book, is it not?
Lose not faith, that inconsistency is just an illusion.
Be well
Amenuel