Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen

Bender

first of all topic here is LGBT

Yes you are right.

second thing i also ask lot of questions from you and you did not answer them yet?

This is also true.
But I have an excuse for this one.
Sometimes you ask to much questions, like in this post. I ask you 1 question, you fire like 10 questions back.
Sometimes I don't understand your questions.
Sometimes I can't answer your questions.
Sometimes your questions are way off topic answering them will lead only to more off topic.
Sometimes I have other things to do, which are also important for me.
I hope you will accept my excuses.

I will answer all your questions this time to make up with you.

but i will give you answer anyway becoz i never run away from questions ... i like giving answers
my answer i will feel same how you will feel when you catch having your wife sex with one person or 5 person at the same time ...
and thats a thing that lead marriage to end ... in most of the cases
so she get punished by law 100 lashes ...
and its becoz God set the rules ... that no women cheat her husband ..same apply to husband...

now you tell me what punishment according to quran should be given to same sex spouses? if they are cheating ..

I assume you got the 100 lashes from 242
So if we take that interpretation as valid then zani homosexuals get also 100 lashes, unless you can proof for me that the term zani is exclusively for heterosexuals.

ok lets assume you are a bisexual...
what rules you will set for yourself...

Same rules as I have set now for myself.

as far cheating with women/wife concerned the set rules are there
but what if you also cheat on your boyfriend and have sex with another boy out of lust (what is your punishment)?

same punishment for me as if I was cheating with another woman.

or if your marriage come to an end how would your son feel that his father is gay... (?)

This is one of the questions I can not answer. I sometimes don't even know how I feel myself, how could I ever know how my son would feel if I was a gaydad whos marriage came to an end.
These kind of questions are to difficult for me to answer, maybe you know how other people feel but I don't.;

and if you still think bisexual is not harmless then even athiest is harmless should we consider him same as we consider beleiver ?

atheism here is a bit off topic no?
I consider myself a believer but I know (means I know them for real) some atheists who are for sure better than me.
I leave the judging of people for they believes, tastes, race, etc to God, it's not my business.

and if you dnt find answer in quran its mean having sex with same sex gender/ animals/ trees/ is invalid thats why rules are not there...

Is not LGBT related.
If you don't find any answers to your questions in the quran than maybe you have to search better.

by the way i hope you also have not any problem to do sex with animals becoz its also absent in quran...?

Is not LGBT related.
But no thank you, I have no desire to have sex with animals. Besides that I don't have any desire for such acts, God also forbids that for me.

or you can give a theory that .. we can even kill animal so why not sex? hahahaha isnt it..

Is not LGBT related.
And NO you can not kill an animal unjustified.
As long as you and your partner are ok with what you 2 do together and don't harm others (others = all living creatures) it's totally ok with me, it's not of my business, God will be your judge.

and this post answers still pending?

No it was not pending, I already answered similar questions to Adem. But I will answer them again.

which case ? that homosex is allowed ?
See my previous posts to see which case, I have already explained my point of view several times.

by the way u did not provide any evidence so far so how you are 100 % sure?
see my answer to Adem, he had a similar question

and last question .. is it ok to be 100 % sure on something on wishful thinking?
There is nothing to gain or whatsoever for me.

I hope I did not forget a question, and I hope you will forgive me next time when I don't answer every question, it's a bit time consuming and boring to reply to every question.

I also had one question for you, Adem, Rekkd and A Submitter. Maybe you missed it. It seems they had/have some trouble with it, but since you like to give answers I think it will be no problem for you.
On page 22 I had 2 quran verses I was interested in your opinion on the red parts. If you do not want to answer that question then I understand, it's ok.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Fair enough, but Allah says that believers are merciful towards one another and stern against the disbelievers. We are encouraged to be firm against the disbelievers.
The believers enjoin good and forbid from the wrongdoing.

Therefore if it is clearly expressed in The Reading that homosexual acts are punishable and a prophet is repeatedly given (by Allah) dialogue condemning it and unfaced individuals on the internet oppose what reason and faith guide to, it is inevitable for those of Iman and higher interpreting/reading/ knowledge capability to oppose you with firmness and distaste.

Is it not possible then that the unpleasantness you are receiving is a result of your wrongdoing in supporting a sin or propagating that transgression is permissible, while twisting your own logic and reasoning in search for loopholes?

Believers don't like that and they are going to be firm against wrongdoing like they are commanded.

As kindly as this can be said I advise that YOU should be more concerned with propagating ideas that are incompatible with the deen rather than the few believers responding appropriately(firmly) against those propagating wrongdoing.

PS give me a little more time I should be a little free tomorrow perhaps

@HP_TECH

IF it were expressed in the Qur'an that homosexuals are disbelievers, and-it-is-not-expressed-despite-your-desires, then believers would be expected to treat homosexuals with firmness. Even then, not without justice and not with nastiness. Those who create lies about ALLAH will not be successful!

I am receiving no unpleasantness, except in what should be reasoned dialogue on this forum, from some of those who claim to be believers. Truly, ALLAH knows best who is a believer and who is not. Saying that I support a sin is nastiness, saying that I propogate that transgression is permissable is nastiness, claiming that I twist logic is nastiness, and calling reasoning and individual understanding a "search for loopholes" is disrespectful as well. If you are a believer, then why do you exhibit nastiness and disrespect, and why do you attribute lies to ALLAH? hmm

You will follow your desires, ISA. Enjoy this life!

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all

I just found an interesting article that pertains to this topic.

https//www.quora.com/Can-you-be-a-Muslim-and-gay

Excerpt from article

With that said, Allah also makes it very clear in Quran 548 and 1338-9 that the commandments of previous Prophets do not apply to Muslims unless Allah explicitly says so.

... Do not follow their whims, which deviate from the truth that has come to you. We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about. Quran 548

We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and offspring; no messenger was given the power to produce a miracle except with God?s permission. There was a Scripture for every age God erases or confirms whatever He will, and the source of Scripture is with Him. Quran 1338-39

So when Allah mentions that previous Prophets ordered fasting, he makes a special point of clarifying that the order also applies to Muslims

You who believe, fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may be mindful of God. Quran 2183

Allah never reinforces Lot's comment about homosexuality in this way. Instead, Allah explains that the story of Lot and other Prophets are provided to highlight how previous nations ignored their messengers as the people of Mecca were ignoring Muhammad. Allah is reassuring Muhammad that his treatment by the Meccans is not unique and part of Allah's divine plan to warn the Meccans about the Day of Judgment

We have told you the stories of those towns messengers came to them, and clear signs, but they would not believe in what they had already rejected?in this way God seals the hearts of disbelievers. We found that most of them did not honor their commitments; We found that most of them were defiant. Quran 7101-102

But We lead on those who reject Our messages, step by step, without them realizing it I will give them respite, but My plan is sure. Has it not occurred to them that their companion is not mad but is giving clear warning? Have they not contemplated the realm of the heavens and earth and all that God created, and that the end of their time might be near? What will they believe in if they do not believe in this? Quran 7182-185

An interesting perspective. I'll need to carefully consider it before accepting or rejecting it. Any thoughts, especially on the excerpted part?

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Adem

Two different parties getting two different penalties for committing the same hideous/criminal act

And those (fem.) who commit 'fahichah' AMONG YOUR WOMEN, penalty X as follows...

And the two (masc.) who commit IT AMONG YOU , penalty Y as follows...

Those who promote sodomy, imposing their nihilistic bias upon the clear textus

Please do explain the passages above, logically, if ye can reason. Whom is ALLAH convicting (in 415 and 16) ?

uq

Peace all,

I should make it clear that 416 cannot be proven linguistically to apply to homosexual relationships. The word They two who is used for two males as well as a male and a female in the context of 416. Whereas the word They who applies exclusively to females in the context of 415.

Abdul Hadi, you have the right to communicate your ideas without the fear of verbal reprisals or disrespect. I should like to think that we are an open-minded community who prioritise the use of reason in the pursuit of truth. If you feel a forum member has violated the forum rules then feel free to report that member to an admin and we shall deal with it inshallah.

Four points for Abdul Hadi

Please clarify

Lot (Peace upon all Prophets) said that the people did an evil not seen before. Since he wasn?t addressed as being wrong, and homosexual acts in organized societies existed long before the people of Lot, this indicates that homosexual acts are not the main issue here.

Please clarify

If one is being absolute in linking unrelated patterns, it could be argued that any society other than the people of Lot is a unique pattern and unrelated to the statements made by the Prophet Lot. It can be one way or the other, but not both at the same time.

I intentionally used the word 'refuted' as the inclusion of males to "what is beyond that" cannot be linguistically proven. It would stand as a major rhetorical anomaly if we were to expand the scope of the verse to include males.
The retribution incurred by L's people was as a direct consequence of their enticing his guests. The fact that his wife was also punished is unrelated to this particular event. I should also point out that the marital status of those who enticed L's guests is unknown. As such, we cannot rule out?linguistically?the possibility of their being blinded purely on account of their homosexual tendencies.

imrankhawaja

Is not LGBT related.
If you don't find any answers to your questions in the quran than maybe you have to search better.

Is not LGBT related.
But no thank you, I have no desire to have sex with animals. Besides that I don't have any desire for such acts, God also forbids that for me.

I also had one question for you, Adem, Rekkd and A Submitter. Maybe you missed it. It seems they had/have some trouble with it, but since you like to give answers I think it will be no problem for you.
On page 22 I had 2 quran verses I was interested in your opinion on the red parts. If you do not want to answer that question then I understand, it's ok.

i did not see any misunderstanding in those verses .. posted by you.. its very clear about a relationship between male and female...
if you have some different interpretation then you may share it with us .. i will look forward into it , hoping that discussion will come to an end.. -\

the only approach of a relationship valid in book is between male and female rest of the relations either with living or non living being autommatically get invalid ...

but as we know like u said if something is missing then we have to search for better understanding
in that case if it was blanked out i also sharing the same thing what you share withh slightiest change that i would said God knows best let God judge them...

but when we come to see that act through quranic lens we find it problemetic... due to some reasons
1 we can see lot nation was engagged in something which cause them immediate azab on special basis
2 and we see the nations who got punishment is a warning for all of us...
3 and if an act was not forbidden then God would never imposed such restriction or punishement on them..
4 it seems like disfiguring in nature or illogical... even it did not harm anybody but it is not liked by God due to which it is adviseable to stay away from such act...

i still wonder when people are sure 100% on something when their claim is based on false assumption at first hand ..like its absent in book.. it is not absent .. have a look in these verses given below please... then decide by yourself...

26163 "So be aware of God and obey me."(lot is indirectly expressing his feelings which is also a command of God)
26164 "I do not ask you for a wage for my reward is upon the Lord of the worlds."(he was not against it for personal wishes)
26165 Of all the creatures in the worlds, you approach males.(they were only interested in males)
26166 "You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"(look into it deeply males to males are not created for the purpose of sex/relationship)...
26168 He said "I am in severe opposition to your acts!"(why he would oppose)

Adem

I should make it clear that 416 canNOT be proven linguistically to apply to homosexual relationships acts

Actually it can.

Who's the addressee (&#1605, linguistically ?

imrankhawaja

actually look into the context.. although God knows best i m not claiming anything but what i find out here is...

4/ 15 addressed to party A ( genitive feminine plural noun)
4/ 16 addressed to party B ( masculine dual relative pronoun)

party A is clearly women...
party B could be women and men... or two men or two females also (?)

if party A is already mention as women and also the set rules of punishment is there then party B must not be women.. there is not need of repeating same thing with different lingual rules .. i think we can assume the two applied to all catagories ... of fahisha incuding two males , two females and two male and female... sometimes Book use specific words due to a reason ..

God knows best...

Adem

Yes, the first penalty concerns women (fem pl) guilty of fahicha,
whereas the 2nd concerns a masc dual (which can be two men, or a man & woman) guilty of fahicha.

However, the addresse in both 4/15 and 16 are MEN, believing men. Ergo, the masc dual are both males, as far as context is concerned.

And those (fem.) who commit 'fahichah' AMONG YOUR WOMEN, penalty X as follows...

And the two (masc.) who commit IT AMONG YOU , penalty Y as foll

To verify, look up the addresse in the surrounding passages also, men P

imrankhawaja

whatever the case is... further reading the same chapter set rules for relationship and there, it is cyrstal clear that a relationship must between parties males and females ... there is no other catagory otherwise God would have mention it . this book is completed and i beleive God never run out of words..

even the people who using an excuse about lacking the information about this act(in quran).. are clearly wrong based on the events of nation lot .. and lot clearly make these acts fahish and was not happy with that...

i still dnt understand logically /naturally/ lawfully they dnt have any evidence in support...

virginia

But I like to know your opinion about the next 2 verses (the red parts),

2221

2432

btw I understand those verses totally different from the popular view, but I have a feeling that some of you will have some trouble to make this fit.

Bold @Bender

very pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, oh drunken master ;D

None of these passages address the issue in question, bender ! nope

No, they are absolutely in relation since they postulate which relationships are lawful.

221
a)
b)

What here?

a) Is Quran addressed only to men here too?
b) Did God forget to give women the right to choose their partners and if they want to be believers or rejecters? Do women belong to their fathers until they belong to their husbands?
c) Did God made a mistake in the plural masculine on b)?
d) Is there not an Arabic plural feminine ending for verbs that God forgot to use on b)?
e) Is God allowing men to marry another man or is God just giving men the right to give their daughters to whom they want or they want not? I want that Quran for ladies! > Where is it that Quran where women, along with obligations, have rights too? giveup
f) So there are 2 optinos here God is fine with the homo situation or He is a sexists? giveup
g) Maybe we can think a bit more considering that the very same verse ends up with ?He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember?... or are "people" again only men?

2432

And marry the single (MASCULINE PLURAL) among you (MASCULINE PLURAL)

And the good from among your MALE servants and your FEMALE servants.

a) to whom is addressed this verse now? Men or women or everybody?
b) Why did God reveal the Quran in Arabic? He could have used Japanese which has a pronoun for every category and genre so we would always know who is being addressed giveup I am sure a nihonjin prophet-san would be much cooler brickwall

I never said is stated clearly anything. As I don?t see clearly stated that homosexual marriage is allowed, I don?t see its prohibition. So when there is not a clear prohibition or permission, just use common sense and don?t condemn anyone without being sure 100%, that is all I know.

My point of view is veeeeeeeeeeery simple We are all more concerned about homosexuality than God is. If it were important we would have it written down this simple ?People, it is allowed? or ?people, it is not allowed?.

Let?s be concerned about evil, about oppression, about wars and the plutocratic word we live in and leave homosexual people to live their lives and believe in God and make good and develop themselves as human beings and God?s creatures. Because, really, a sincere, kind and discreet homo couple (as a hetero one) is not giving me the impression the world is all sin and sodomy.

Salam peace

Postscript If someone finds that Quran for ladies, please let me know yay

imrankhawaja

2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you...

2432 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

@ virginia... both male and females are present there..

on the other hand where does these verses are allowing homosex?

instead of homosaphien can we use word homosexien? (part of joke) rotfl

virginia

2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you...

@ virginia... both male and females are present there..

The verb on b) is masculine plural since I know, so since I know it can't say "you, WOMEN, don't marry polytheist men". If women are addressed in the second part with masculine plural, why women are not also addressed in the first part with masculine plural? hmm

Also look at the ajabakum (he pleases you), it is not -kunna but -kum

on the other hand where does these verses are allowing homosex?

You have 2 options you can translate b) as "and dont give your women to polytheist men", which first and only time happens in the Quran with this structure since I know (please correct me if I am wrong and forgive me) and so women are things to give and not addressed here, or translate b)
as "and you, MEN, dont marry polytheist men"

instead of homosaphien can we use word homosexien? (part of joke) rotfl

I would be proud of it O0

not part but fully rotfl welcome

You can't say yes and you can't say no 100%, so God knows better and we are not the ones to judge any human being who is not harming anyone

virginia

Actually it can.

Who's the addressee (&#1605, linguistically ?

Only men because there is not a Ladies Quran, don't you get it, Huruf? >

huruf

No se le pueden pedir peras al olmo.

Lately there seems to have sprung a new species of brains which are incapable of realising the use of words when it comes to the existence of women. Unles it is for something bad they are simply not there and it is forbidden for God to speak of them.

Verbs are masculine or feminine and there cannot and should not exist a verb form or pronouns or any other type of word that can include both sexes. SUCH A THING DOES NOT EXIST.

It is useless to attempt to reason or teach them grammar. They are impervious and they are not interested because women simple are not there nor, what is mor eimportant, SHOULD BE there.

I do not know why anybody still bothers to indulge talking to those peoples. If once they do no take any notice of what is explained to them, it is a waste of time to even bother taking any further notice of such contrived stupidity. For them a condition for being muslim is to be thouroughly stupid and brainless. Ignore them is the most charitable attitude towards and specially towards oneself.

Salaam

imrankhawaja

The verb on b) is masculine plural since I know, so since I know it can't say "you, WOMEN, don't marry polytheist men". If women are addressed in the second part with masculine plural, why women are not also addressed in the first part with masculine plural? hmm

oh common hun why making simple things complicated...

apply general rule of understanding...

do not marry O0 FM polythiest..
believing FM servant is better... (part 1)

do not marry O0 M polythiest
believing M servant is better (part 2)..

whats so hard to understand ?

You can't say yes and you can't say no 100%, so God knows better and we are not the ones to judge any human being not harming anyone

yes God knows better so thats why i already left the verses what God advised us...

look at this...

in that case if it was blanked out i also sharing the same thing what you share withh slightiest change that i would said God knows best let God judge them...

but when we come to see that act through quranic lens we find it problemetic... due to some reasons
1 we can see lot nation was engagged in something which cause them immediate azab on special basis
2 and we see the nations who got punishment is a warning for all of us...
3 and if an act was not forbidden then God would never imposed such restriction or punishement on them..
4 it seems like disfiguring in nature or illogical... even it did not harm anybody but it is not liked by God due to which it is adviseable to stay away from such act...

i still wonder when people are sure 100% on something when their claim is based on false assumption at first hand ..like its absent in book.. it is not absent .. have a look in these verses given below please... then decide by yourself...

26163 "So be aware of God and obey me."(lot is indirectly expressing his feelings which is also a command of God)
26164 "I do not ask you for a wage for my reward is upon the Lord of the worlds."(he was not against it for personal wishes)
26165 Of all the creatures in the worlds, you approach males.(they were only interested in males)
26166 "You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"(look into it deeply males to males are not created for the purpose of sex/relationship)...
26168 He said "I am in severe opposition to your acts!"(why he would oppose)

think about it and take your time...

virginia

oh common hun why making simple things complicated...

apply general rule of understanding...

do not marry O0 FM polythiest..
believing FM servant is better... (part 1)

do not marry O0 M polythiest
believing M servant is better (part 2)..

whats so hard to understand ?

You (men and women -) don't marry FM polytheist ..... even if she - pleases you (men and women -*)
You (men and women -) don't marry M polytheist.... even if he pleases you (men and women -)

I don't have any problem, I thought you had.
So homosexual marriage is perfectly allowed yay

look at this...

hypno like this?

Where is homosexuality there? I see promiscuity, I see adultery, I see prostitution, I see rape, I see murder, I see torture, I see orgies BUT I DON'T SEE HOMOSEXIALITY

imrankhawaja

Only men because there is not a Ladies Quran, don't you get it, Huruf? >(

if its based on jealousy then i have no cure for it... elektro

yes there is a name of women in quran (mary) probably the only women name in whole scripture why only one
God knows...best..

another thing .. once there was a debate between sister huruf regarding giver and taker ... rotfl

man is giver women is taker... sister huruf was arguing with us why man is giver .. its woman who gives.. does it really make women giver , as we know the ignition call the starting point.. switching off the ignition is the ending point... ending and starting cannot be same likewise giver and taker cannot be same...

its better if u take this female stuff outside ... if somebody have problems with the injustice i mean the injustice according to secterian lens of women then they are wrong.. i did not see God is degerading any women in quran... but its a fact too that man lead the family its God who make man a leader of the family ... if somebody want to go againsst laws of God i have no comments for them instead of symppathy...

why God made man a leader of family its another question.. if i will go into details most of the women will not get it as its a natural attitutde of human they will not accpet the truth even they know it..

example

i say male and female are both humans so both deserve respect
make and female are humans they are same but not identical becoz the physical strenght of male is more than female
here some females start arguing on it.. as they will think we are considering them as weak...

instead of thinking positively most of them think negetively... its a part of human nature so i most of the times avoid discussing these issues...

but again with the fact , i still feel a kid loves his mother more than his father...
why becoz naturally mother loves his kid more than father... ?
father must not have issue with this thing becoz its truth...
same womens must have not any issue with leadership or strenght if its truth...

hope you got and sorry for offtopic

virginia

hope you got and sorry for fftopic

Dont be sorry (masc. singular) it is my (fem. singular) fault the fftopic

I (fem. singular) am sorry let's concentrate (masc. plural) on the subject peace

I am sorry for the () but it was so funny i had to rotfl rotfl rotfl
peace

I really mean it, I am sorry

imrankhawaja

You (men and women -) don't marry FM polytheist ..... even if she - pleases you (men and women -*)
You (men and women -) don't marry M polytheist.... even if he pleases you (men and women -)

I don't have any problem, I thought you had.
So homosexual marriage is perfectly allowed yay

hypno like this?

do i have to teach you abc 123 ... rotfl

if A=B
then B=A

if AB= CD
then CD= AB

A= FEMALE B= MALE
AB=females CD = males

whats so hard .. or you already make your mind... ?

Where is homosexuality there? I see promiscuity, I see adultery, I see prostitution, I see rape, I see murder, I see torture, I see orgies BUT I DON'T SEE HOMOSEXIALITY

did you not see the clear words there..? (26/ 163-16
do you want to make your eyes shut due to the ego ?
or did you already decided not to believe on this ?
this verse is just talking about homosex...

rest of the things what you mention like rape, murder torture are also comndem by God on different places?

so accepting a part of scriptures and rejecting part of it is the sign hypocrate rejector?