THEFT PUNISHMENT
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peace be upon all,
I'm pretty sure that to cut the hands and feet is an idiom for forcibly taking away their movement (imprisoning them) how could pharoah crucify them after cutting their limbs off when it is necessary to nail the limbs for crucifiction?
just as that is an idiom for imprisonment I believe to "cut the hands" is an idiom for taking away an equal amount of their resources to what they stole or making them work to repay for what they stole
as you can see the same phrase used for what we should do to thieves in 538 is used in 1231 ti describe what the women did to themselves when they saw Joseph, obviously they didn't cut off their own hands
plus in 538 the punishment is described as JAZAA' BI- MAA KASABAA (a recompense with what (they) earned) KASAB =to gain, win, profit, earn, get, obtain, acquire
the punishment is equivalent for what they did, does literally cutting or cutting off the hands fit this description?
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Peace Saladin,
You asked,
r u trying to say the pharoah commanded to "mark" the hands and feet ?
Honestly, I'm not trying to say anything. I'm simply curious about how you came to the solid conclusion that "faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma" is meant to be literally understood as 'amputated'.
Using this same methodology and root, would you consider 254 as literal also? Do you think Moses ordered his people to kill themselves?
Please understand, I mean no offense, and I respect your opinion. I have no need to shovel mine along. I'm asking you to elaborate in light of the big picture of the Qur'an- most notably, the Divine Attributes of Compassion and Mercy. How does your interpretation fit into this big picture?
Peace,
Tay -
"Qata'a means to cut, but when used with different nouncs it means different things idiomatically, such as to stop someone from speaking when used with lisan, toungue, or cut off the road when used with sabil, or become hopeless when used with rajul,man, etc. In 1231, for instance, qtta'na aidihunna means they wounded their hands or stopped peeling fruit, not cut off their hand. Hense here, in 538, it could also mean to stop their hands from stealing by adopting deterrent means, for the next verse, 39, speaks of repentance and forgiveness whith overtones of rehabilitation, which would be lost if the hands were cut off completely or amputated. Similarly in v.33 tuqtta'a could mean to restrain them by putting fetters on one hand and one leg.
During the Ummayyad caliphate, the punishment for theft was flogging. "
--from Ahmed Ali's "Al Quran A contemporary Translation"Hadith flurished during the Abbassid period in which the new punishment, amputation, was enforced. This punishment was clearly stolen from the Old Testament.
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peace be upon all,
I'm pretty sure that to cut the hands and feet is an idiom for forcibly taking away their movement (imprisoning them) how could pharoah crucify them after cutting their limbs off when it is necessary to nail the limbs for crucifiction?
pharoah could nail their wrists or arms for crucification .
plus in 538 the punishment is described as JAZAA' BI- MAA KASABAA (a recompense with what (they) earned) KASAB =to gain, win, profit, earn, get, obtain, acquire
the punishment is equivalent for what they did, does literally cutting or cutting off the hands fit this description?
yes , according to God ,this is the punishment . and is equivalent .
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also, dunno if nyone mentioned it, it says cut the hands PLURAL, i.e. more than two in the Arabic form.
Interesting point. )I'm curious also, and mean no offence to anyone's beliefs, etc... This is a question to anyone on this forum...
If you caught a thief, today, after having stolen your money or belongings... would any of you mark, cut or amputate one or more of their limbs?... would you really ?
Whatever interpretation you believe to be true. A simple yes or no answer, would also be sufficient.
Thanks and Peace.
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Zen, Make a wish...your next post is #2222!!!!
Back to the subject, the QXP explanation of this topic makes sense to me, on a spiritual and logical note
538 (Theft is a crime that steals away the sense of security from a society). A habitual thief, male or female, must have their ability (to steal) cut off. This is the reward for their doings, and a deterrent from Allah. Allah is Almighty, Wise.
As to your question, Zenje, I couldn't bring myself to harm an individual for stealing something materialistic from me. Where, exactly, does one draw the line between discipline and stigmatizing someone for life?
I find it difficult to grasp that such a harsh punishment is dealt for theft, yet nothing as harsh is mentioned for child molestation, or rape, or incest.
Peace,
Tay -
If you caught a thief, today, after having stolen your money or belongings... would any of you mark, cut or amputate one or more of their limbs?... would you really ?
Whatever interpretation you believe to be true. A simple yes or no answer, would also be sufficient.
Thanks and Peace.
if he repents i would not have him punished . if he steals for the second time then the punishment would be applied .
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Peace all,
According the commands given 545, this meaning ?cut their hands? is not correct, because a life for a life?..and equal injury for injury
- And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
In 477, kuffoo aydiyakum means restrain yourselves/your hands but from what? from fighting according the context.
The verb ?qataAAa? could mean to break the bond? (227, 4722 ) and it is the opposite of to unit (1325)
In the same way than 477 ?iqtaAAoo aydiyahuma? (538 ) could mean keep their hands/themselves away from the source of their crime, break their relation from the source of their theft,
- Did you not see those who were told ?Restrain yourselves/your hands (kuffoo aydiyakum), and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment.? But when fighting was decreed for them, a group of them feared the people as much as they feared God or even more so. And they said ?Our Lord, why did You decree fighting for us? If only You would delay for us till another time.? Say ?The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is far better for those who are aware; you will not be wronged in the least.?
The God knows best
Peace
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Peace all,
According the commands given 545, this meaning ?cut their hands? is not correct, because a life for a life?..and equal injury for injury
- And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
salam.
cutting hands is made a just and examplary requital by God . the best way to keep the crime in check . or what punishment do u think should be then for a cheating husband who commits adultery ? that his wife should also cheat on him and commit adultery ?!!! is that what u mean by "equal injury for injury" ? no . flogging in public is made the most just and examplary punishment for the one who commits adultery . he will be requited by flogging , not by the way that his wife may also cheat on him .same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .
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if he repents i would not have him punished . if he steals for the second time then the punishment would be applied .
I'm asking if YOU would do it.whether i would do it ? who is supposed to be punishing the criminals ? me ? or the authorities ?
salam.
It was a hypothetical question addressed to any individual here. Just like Tay answered, he couldn't bring himself to do it. I don't expect him to, even if he said yes. I wouldn't do it either, whether the "authorities" allowed it or not. Just looking for an opinion.Thanks for your reply.
Peace
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same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .
Why are you dissatisfied by Br Joe's explanation here ?
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htmPeace
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Just a reflection...
What is 'theft'? Is there any condition of theft that can justify the cutting of hands?
Maybe people would assume theft as someone breaking into a house and taking valuables. Or pointing a gun to a woman in a dark alley and nicking her jewelry.
What about a government official keeping public funds for himself? What about cybercrime? What about large corporations 'robbing' smaller firms of market opportunity?
I think the issue of theft needs to be expanded.
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Salam Saladin
what punishment do u think should be then for a cheating husband who commits adultery ? that his wife should also cheat on him and commit adultery ?!!!is that what u mean by "equal injury for injury" ? no .
The punishement for those who commit adultery and and those who accuse the independent women ... is whithout ambiguity (242, 244).
545 is about the physical crimes. For the immoral acts like adultery and false accusations.. , we have to judge by what God has sent down (242, 244)
flogging in public is made the most just and examplary punishment for the one who commits adultery . he will be requited by flogging , not by the way that his wife may also cheat on him .
There is no comparison between (545) and (242 and 244). The God explains how do we have to judge the physical crime and the immoral acts.
Those who are concerned by 242 and 244 could not be judged according 545 because they don't commit a physical crime but immoral crimes and they would be punished according to what the God has sent down (chapter 24)same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .
I disgree because it violates 545
And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar.(545)
and hand for hand, and leg for leg, and finger for finger..
Brother Joe explained it nicely in his article Theft Punishment
Chance should be given to the thieves to come forward, acknowledge their crime, and give back what they have stolen to the victims. They might even get a reward. If they do not come forward, prove should be found who are the thieves. Thieves should then work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid.
This is what I understand from 539
Whoever repents after the crime and makes amends by giving back what he has stolen to the victims, the God is Forgiving, Merciful
Shabir
539 Whoever repents after the crime and makes amends, surely, Allah grants him pardon. Verily, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (If the hands are cut off, where are the making amends, pardon and mercy?) -
Peace all,
The word Jazao/The reward is used for similar actions (agression, bad deeds) and could mean similar reward/recompense/retribution., 2191 illustrates very well this meaning
Expel them from where they expelled you? if they fight you , then fight against them. Such is the reward (jazao) of the disbelievers. (2191)
- The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources, this is the reward (jazaan) for their doings, and a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense (fajazaon) ?an animal? equivalent/similar (mithlu) to the game animal that was killed which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you ?.(595)
The God?s justice is a model for us
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Indeed, God does not wrong an atom?s weight; and if it is good He will double it. And He grants from Himself a great reward.
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As for those who earn evil, the recompense (jazao) of evil will be evil like it (mithliha), and they will be humiliated. They do not have any besides God as a helper. It is as if their faces have been covered by a piece of darkness from the night. These are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
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The recompense (jazao) for a crime shall be its equivalence/the equivalent retribution/antidote (mithluha), but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
In 538, the reward of the thief, male or female is the restitution of what they have stolen.
to cut their hands cannot be the equivalent recompense (Jazao) for their doings.
Every poison has his antidote )
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salam marie and all .
Salam Saladin
what punishment do u think should be then for a cheating husband who commits adultery ? that his wife should also cheat on him and commit adultery ?!!!is that what u mean by "equal injury for injury" ? no .
The punishement for those who commit adultery and and those who accuse the independent women ... is whithout ambiguity (242, 244).
the hand cutting commandment is also without ambiguity .
545 is about the physical crimes. For the immoral acts like adultery and false accusations.. , we have to judge by what God has sent down (242, 244)
flogging in public is made the most just and examplary punishment for the one who commits adultery . he will be requited by flogging , not by the way that his wife may also cheat on him .
There is no comparison between (545) and (242 and 244). The God explains how do we have to judge the physical crime and the immoral acts.
Those who are concerned by 242 and 244 could not be judged according 545 because they don't commit a physical crime but immoral crimes and they would be punished according to what the God has sent down (chapter 24)same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .
I disgree because it violates 545
And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar.(545)
and hand for hand, and leg for leg, and finger for finger..
you say that adultery is an immoral crime ,while theft is physical one ? come on . theft is also an "immoral" crime , not a "physical" one . and by the way , adultery is more "physical" than theft .
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Peace saladin,
You wrote
the hand cutting commandment is also without ambiguity .
I respect your view but this meaning contradict 4220 and 545
- The recompense (jazao) for a crime shall be its equivalence/the equivalent retribution/antidote (mithluha), but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
According 545, hand for hand...
In 538, we are asked to apply a reward/retribution (jazao) equivalent to their deed. It is not a physical punishment like in 242 where the word AAathab/punishment is used instead of jazao/reward, and we are also told "do not let any pity take you over God?s system"
Why the God doesn't ask us to witness the punishment/AAathab of The male thief, and the female thief?
you say that adultery is an immoral crime ,while theft is physical one ? come on . theft is also an "immoral" crime ,
I did not say the opposite, both are immoral crimes.
