What is the Purpose of Life?
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Peace good logic,
You missed the finer point, note I stated
"Reincarnation usually refer to many life cycles."
In other cases, it can apply to two lives.
There is no contradiction.Thus as long as you maintain humans were dead before they were born, then that is associated with reincarnation to some degrees .
As I had stated some translators do use "lifeless" or in similar form, e.g.
• Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
They will say, "Our Lord, You made us lifeless twice and gave us life twice, and we have confessed our sins. So is there to an exit any way?"Bilal Muhammad
They will say, ?Our Lord, twice have You made us without life, and twice have You given us life. Now have we recognized our sins, is there any way out??Syed Vickar Ahamed
They will say "Our Lord! Twice have You made us (when we were) without life, and twice You have given us Life! Now we have recognized our sins Then, is there any way to get out (of this)?"Abdel Haleem
They will say, ?Our Lord, twice You have caused us to be lifeless and twice You have brought us to life. Now we recognize our sins. Is there any way out??They shall say " O Allah, our Creator, twice did you deprive us of animate existence by death and twice did you bring us into being and caused us to exist, and now we confess our sins and confess to the charge, but is there a way out of this agony and torment? "
Yusuf Ali
They will say "Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognised our sins Is there any way out (of this)?"•
I agree with the above.
They avoided the term 'die' 'dead' to avoid veering to physical death before birth and mortality.
One can translate as 'die' or 'dead' twice, but one must be careful not to interpret there are two lives, i.e. one before birth. -
Peace Nonetheless.
1-Still when you say,quote Thus as long as you maintain humans were dead before they were born, then that is associated with reincarnation to some degrees .You know we will die before we get reborn(resurrected) in the next life! Now what do you call that? Two life cycles?
Where did I miss the point? You just repeated the same contradiction!2- You then add, Quote One can translate as 'die' or 'dead' twice, but one must be careful not to interpret there are two lives, i.e. one before birth.
You still have the problem of "Amattana" in 4011 means "You have put us to death". Now how can GOD put them to death the first time if they were nothing? They must have been alive!!!! Hence a first life
Read the verse again it does not say we were "Amwatan" like you claim it means lifeless?
Also you have the problem of the two lives in 40;11, it says "Ahyaytana" in the past tense which means they already had two lives before the standing in front of GODi.e they are talking to GOD at the beginning of the third life. Yes the third life which just started for them after the two life they had in the past.By all means believe any translation you wish to believe, the problem that is clearly pointed out to you in my posts will not go away.
I am saying, with Qoranic evidence(4011) that "Amattana" means "you have put us to death" cannot mean lifeless( non existing). It can only mean "life" before they were put to death.
And of course you know full well it cannot be "overridden" by any other verse ,since GOD s words are true and nothing can override/abrogate them.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
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By all means believe any translation you wish to believe, the problem that is clearly pointed out to you in my posts will not go away.
I am saying, with Qoranic evidence(4011) that "Amattana" means "you have put us to death" cannot mean lifeless( non existing). It can only mean "life" before they were put to death.
And of course you know full well it cannot be "overridden" by any other verse ,since GOD s words are true and nothing can override/abrogate them.GOD bless you.
Peace.Note I mentioned earlier;
Note "amwatan" from Miim-Waw-Ta has a range of meanings;
• To die,
to pass away from the earthly life,
to be destitute or deprived of life,
deprived of sensation,
deprived of the intellectual faculty,
to be still/quiet/motionless,
to be calm/still,
to sleep,
lifeless,
to be assuaged,
dried up by the earth,
to cease,
wear out/be worn out,
to be poor/reduced to poverty,
abject/base/despicable/vile,
disobedient or rebellious,
lowly/humble/submissive,
to be soft/loose/flabby/relaxed,
lack spirit or life.•
God used one word, but who give you the right to choose any of the above meanings of the word?
I believe 'lifeless' from the list of the above meanings is most appropriate for "Amattana" in the context of 4011. 'Lifeless' will not lead into the concept of possible reincarnation or rebirth.
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Lifeless can also be lacking in spirit, that one is weakminded.
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Peace Nonetheless.
So we have reached the following,quote;
God used one word, but who give you the right to choose any of the above meanings of the word?
I believe 'lifeless' from the list of the above meanings is most appropriate for "Amattana" in the context of 4011. 'Lifeless' will not lead into the concept of possible reincarnation or rebirth.
This means pick and choose regardless of any context or best meaning.
Anyone, in the same way, can claim as you did by picking a meaning at random( apart from lifeless) from the list and saying to you "who give you the right to choose lifeless?"
You are sticking with lifeless despite the evidence given to you. That is fine by me as long as you say that and we move on.
What can I say ?
This "my mind is made up" attitude is not a good way to study GOD s words.
However ,you are entitled to your choice.
Hope you read again GOD s words and reflect.
May GOD guide us to the best meaning.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Lifeless can also be lacking in spirit, that one is weakminded.
True, "lifeless" can have lots of meanings.
Note the various meaning of 'lifeless
• "Lifeless"
dead or apparently dead.
"his lifeless body was taken from the river"
synonyms dead, departed, perished, gone, no more, passed on/away, stiff, cold, (as) dead as a doornail; Morelacking vigor, vitality, or excitement.
"my hair always seems to look lifeless"
synonyms lackluster, spiritless, apathetic, torpid, lethargic; Moredevoid of living things.
"the moon is lifeless"
synonyms barren, sterile, bare, desolate, stark, arid, infertile, uncultivated, uninhabited; bleak, colorless, characterless, soulless
"a lifeless landscape"•
What is critical is one has to take the context into account.
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Peace Nonetheless.
So we have reached the following,quote;
God used one word, but who give you the right to choose any of the above meanings of the word?
I believe 'lifeless' from the list of the above meanings is most appropriate for "Amattana" in the context of 4011. 'Lifeless' will not lead into the concept of possible reincarnation or rebirth.
This means pick and choose regardless of any context or best meaning.
Anyone, in the same way, can claim as you did by picking a meaning at random( apart from lifeless) from the list and saying to you "who give you the right to choose lifeless?"
You are sticking with lifeless despite the evidence given to you. That is fine by me as long as you say that and we move on.
What can I say ?
This "my mind is made up" attitude is not a good way to study GOD s words.
However ,you are entitled to your choice.
Hope you read again GOD s words and reflect.
May GOD guide us to the best meaning.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I agree we move on but you do not seem to let go and imply I am rigid and stupid.
Note the Principle of Charity
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charityIn philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.
In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others' statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available.
According to Simon Blackburn "it constrains the interpreter to maximize the truth or rationality in the subject's sayings." -wikiMy rationale is to avoid others interpreting Islam with the possibility that Islam accept 'reincarnation' or 'rebirth' the term 'lifeless' is the most effective translation.
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Peace Nontheless.
This is not about principles of fallacies or charity or burdens of proofs...etc.
This is a simple what does 4011 say?
Let me summarise for the benefit of the readers, then leave it at thatIf you stay put on "Amattana" means lifeless( nothing existed before), then the second one must also mean the same- lifeless,nothing existed-
According to you these people never existed at all?
I say 4011 says a first life before the first "Amattana".
And of course these people are projected to the future in 4011 and had "two lives before"- "Ahyaytana Ithnataini" ( The first life and the human life) and are now asking for some respite .I will now also move on.
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
4456 They do not taste death therein except for the first death, and He has spared them the retribution of hell.
handshake
rebirth cause deaths in plural so by default one life one chance, one go one exam ,one task...
and even if rebirth exists it does not really matter a criminal will always commit crimes regardless of the chances , logically there is no point of creating a trouser with same machine that will manufacture a faulty trouser...
so hereafter criminals wish alas we had a second chance, but God is already aware they will do the same things again ... if second third or fourth chance is been given to them...
i did not find much attraction in the logic of second birth...
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There are criminals who have happened to change behavior and made changes to the lifestyle. So the argument "once a criminal always a criminal" is not necessarily right.
Be well
Amenuel -
and even if rebirth exists it does not really matter a criminal will always commit crimes regardless of the chances , logically there is no point of creating a trouser with same machine that will manufacture a faulty trouser...
The Moses Egyptian Pharaoh will not commit murder and oppression if he was born as a slave to the egyptian empire (or as an oppressed israelites) he will not have the power to do so.. and he will be too busy with his slave works....
And who knows if YOU were born as that egyptian pharaoh on that specific era, spoiled all-rich kid since birth, arrogance and narcissistic due to everyone praises you like a god and nobody dare to correct your mistakes let alone criticize you.. you will do the exact same things as he did..
i did not find much attraction in the logic of second birth...
How about challenged with different context and/or see things from other perspective?
Adolf Hitler relived as a Jew in Nazi era?
Muslims hater relived as a Muslim during Spanish Inquisition era?
Black hater relived as blacks during American slavery era?
Male women oppressor relived as woman .....The list goes on and on...
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-- Abe Lincoln -
The Moses Egyptian Pharaoh will not commit murder and oppression if he was born as a slave to the egyptian empire (or as an oppressed israelites) he will not have the power to do so.. and he will be too busy with his slave works....
And who knows if YOU were born as that egyptian pharaoh on that specific era, spoiled all-rich kid since birth, arrogance and narcissistic due to everyone praises you like a god and nobody dare to correct your mistakes let alone criticize you.. you will do the exact same things as he did..
How about challenged with different context and/or see things from other perspective?
RED may be he will become an evil slave who spread evil and probably plan to kill the master ... whats the difference then?
BLUE solomon got much more than pharoah in worldy wealth as well as the company of mysterious characters who are able to do works in the glimpse of eyes... and he was the son of king too ,
but did he do anything wrong ?GREEN.. yeh exactly look it by the perception of God he was making us aware about an future event in which the criminals are begging for second chance , if they were already provided with second third or fourth chance why did not God said.. i gave you plantey of chances but you always failed...? instead book is saying you will do the same what u were doing before...
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Peace Nontheless.
This is not about principles of fallacies or charity or burdens of proofs...etc.
This is a simple what does 4011 say?
Let me summarise for the benefit of the readers, then leave it at thatIf you stay put on "Amattana" means lifeless( nothing existed before), then the second one must also mean the same- lifeless,nothing existed-
According to you these people never existed at all?
I say 4011 says a first life before the first "Amattana".
And of course these people are projected to the future in 4011 and had "two lives before"- "Ahyaytana Ithnataini" ( The first life and the human life) and are now asking for some respite .I will now also move on.
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Don't grieve my Lord also guided me to the same understanding indeed we were alive before, all of us.
And then we were put to death all of us.
Before that we were put to death and cast down from our safe dwelling place after dispute arose, our Lord brought us out from our parents' backs/loins and asked us
"Am I not your Lord?"
"Yes we have testified" we all replied
7172-174 -
RED may be he will become an evil slave who spread evil and probably plan to kill the master ... whats the difference then?
Assuming it's a 'he' and 'powerful'...
Usually we call such thing "Revolution" or "Freedom Fighter"... A bunch of slave revolting for freedom from their master.. Heck that's what the so called "Israelite and Moses" did right?
And if Mr Pharaoh succeed he will be a 'hero'.. otherwise.. he will suffer a long and torturing death..
Mr Pharaoh will then be a 'good guy' as told by his follower and the progeny of his follower... just like Moses...Assuming that "Pharaoh" is borned as a 'she' and not powerful..
Then she will be raped and abused multiple times by her master... and decided to end her life (this time around) by suicide...BLUE solomon got much more than pharoah in worldy wealth as well as the company of mysterious characters who are able to do works in the glimpse of eyes... and he was the son of king too ,
but did he do anything wrong ?Mr. Solomon (the identity) context is different than Mr. Pharaoh, he had a dad who thought him well...
A bunch of rebbe that teached him the wisdom of his people...
He wasn't praised as god since little children.. and not spoiled at all..
Nobody worshipped him like a god..
And he initially wasn't supposed to be the heir of the kingdom... as he wasn't the son from his dad's first wife..Fate turned good on him as his dad approached his death.. he fought off his competitor and 'purged' any potential rival for his power.. just like any politicians...
Is he 'good' or 'bad'.. again it depends on which point of view..
But at least he didn't enslaved anyone..Turning back to Mr Pharaoh's life context..
What will you do if you were in his shoes?
A Pharaoh in ancient egyptian society context was supposed to be a 'deity'... a patron in this life and also the afterlife.. in the afterlife the pharaoh will grant his follower eternal paradise... such was the religion of ancient egyptian. Those who do not had any patron / pharaoh or the pharaoh was not happy with him during his 'earthly life' will be eaten in the afterlife by giant crocodile...
One of Pharaoh role is to conquer neighboring areas, loot their belonging and capture the people as slaves...
A good pharaoh are those who can bring in many slaves and booty to Egyptian citizen..
That was the social cultural values in ancient egyptian...A pharaoh who let the slave go.. or 'free' the slaves is a bad pharaoh...
Mocked and ridiculed by the citizen.. and the citizen will lose the belief of the 'deitiness' of their pharaoh.
THe pharaoh might run into a risk of a political coup by his enemy...
If the coup is successful, the pharaoh, his family / relatives will be tortured and killed.. his entire dynasty will be destroyed..Death on the sea while pursuing the escaping slaves is considered as a blessing compared to the death by political coup... At least he will save his reputation (heroic death while trying to conquer the enemy) and his dynasty will be saved.
As similitude.. The option of "Freeing the Israelite" is viewed as bad (politically) as Xi Jinping letting Taiwan to be independent... He will be viewed as weak leader and run into the risk of a coup from a group within Chinese communist party..
If Xi Jinping (in modern china context) is faced with such options, I bet all my money that he will chose to declare war against Taiwan.. even if Taiwan had the backing of US military... thus potentially triggering the start of WW3.
A decision which might caused million of deaths and suffering.... and potentially the death of Xi Jinping himself...Will then XI Jinping be remembered as 'evil man'?
It depends... if China won the war.. he will be regarded as a 'hero' (just like Abe Lincoln).. if China lose it will be the opposite... the evil man Xi Jinping... who caused death of millions..."I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me."
-- Abe LincolnHuman's belief, world view, decision and character is at least 80% being influenced by his/her life context... (culture, norm, upbringing, tradition, religion, political situation etc..)