Ramadhan 2:185
-
Salamu Alaykum Jemby and nice to meet you!
You state that shahar means month or moon, but in my experience that is not completely correct. A few verses after that in 2189 it states,
"They ask you, , about the new moons. Say, "They are measurements of time for the people and for Hajj." And it is not righteousness to enter houses from the back, but righteousness is one who fears Allah. And enter houses from their doors. And fear Allah that you may succeed."
The word use for new moons here is ahlihati, and it is only used four other times in the Qur'an every time in the form uhilla , which means "to be dedicated to" and is used in the context of forbidden meat that has been "dedicated to" a deity other than God. http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=hll#(21893)
Any other instances of the word moon in the Qur'an appear as qamar and it appears 27 times. http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qmr
My last reason I am inclined to not believe this line of reasoning is mathematics. The Qur'an appears to have very specific and precise mathematics associated with it (if you had not studied this subject I highly recommend it). This precise mathematics occurs in many ways, but one is in the number of times certain words are used in the Qur'an. I will give you an example before I explain about Shahar.
Look up the word sea ( ر in the Quran corpus and you will find that the singular noun sea occurs 33 times in the Qur'an. http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=bHr Now look up the word land ( ر and you will see that land occurs 14 times. http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=brr#(65911) Find their ratio 3314 = 29.7% and 70.2%. "Seen from space, the majority of the Earth's surface is covered by oceans ? that makes up 71% of the surface of the Earth, with the remaining 29% for land." Interestingly, depending on your grammatical counting of words, I have seen these numbers be anywhere from 26%/74% to 30%/70%. As the ratio of land to water in the Earth is always fluctuating it makes sense the Qur'an includes this even in the number of times words are used. https//water.usgs.gov/edu/watercycleoceans.html
Now as for Shahar, let's do the same thing. Look up the word shahar ( ر and it will return this http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$hr#(21851). If you count the number of times shahar is used in its original form and not the plural you will see that it is 12 times. Here is a list if you want to see http//www.answering-christianity.com/day_365_month_12_times_in_quran.htm
Weighing all of this information is difficult, but for me it seems clear that shahar means month, and not moon or intensely hot moon (i.e. full moon), and that even though a new moon is a sign for the beginning of months it does not mean we should be fasting after a full moon as you have suggested. Instead, I will attempt to fast this month of Ramadan insha'Allah.
Thank you for your post jemby97, I found it a very interesting take on these verses. As always God knows best and I am sure we will all be accepted should our intentions be correct.
Salaam,
Your brother Clash
-
Brook,
Could period here is referring to a lunar year?
According to the Quran there is no such thing as the lunar year. The word YEAR (ٍ in the Quran stands for the SOLAR year. Take Yunus 5 for example
God is the one who? determined phases for the moon
so that you may know the number of the years (َ.One of the phases of the moon is the full moon.
Here is the dates of the 33 hot full moons that is the full moons right after the summer solstice from 2001 to 2033. You will know the number of the solar years if you count them, you will not know the number of the so-called lunar years.
05 July. 2001
24 June 2002
13 July. 2003
02 July. 2004
22 June 2005
11 July. 2006
30 June 2007
17 July. 2008
07 June 2009
26 July. 2010
15 July. 2011
03 July. 2012
23 June 2013
12 July. 2014
02 July. 2015
19 July. 2016
09 July. 2017
28 June 2018
16 July. 201905 July. 2020
24 June 2021
13 July. 2022
02 July. 2023
22 June 2024
11 July. 2025
30 June 2026
17 July. 2027
07 July. 2029
26 June 2030
15 July. 2031
03 July. 2032
23 June 203333 hot full moons = 33 solar years
??????????? = 34 lunar years -
The question I had is how to identify a new moon? We have techs now, yes. But what about Muhammad? How did they do it? What about cloudy weather where no moon is seen. So when is the Ramadan?
I read an article here where it implied the Ramadan to start in December at fixed time. Winter solstice is the Laylatu Qadr. -
Quran has a lunar-solar calender.
If it's merely solar or lunar and not both, we wouldn't know the timing of Ramadhan and we wouldn't know when the 1 extra lunar month is.Apart from that, "hot moon" doesn't make any sense. Full moon is not equal to hot moon. In fact, your conclusion is contradicting 2189 because in this verse the crescents are a timing mechanism and not full moons;
2189
They ask you regarding the crescents, say ?They provide a timing
mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage.? And piety is not
that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever
is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And
be aware of God that you may succeed.And here we learn that the month begins with the first appearance of waxing crescent and not full moon. In your reasoning, the month would begin with full moon which contradicts 3639.
3639
And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it
returns like an old palm sheath.Salam
-
Salam Submitter.
I am not talking about full moon as being starting of ramadhan.Pls reread my post.
I am talking about witnessing of full moon as doing your fast the next ONE day only and doing it every month whenever you witness a full moon ie for the next 12 months.
-
Salaam again jemby,
I still think we are missing a huge point here everyone. In my humble opinion, shahar does not mean full moon, it means month. The 'hu in falyasum'hu is referring to shahar, the month. Look at the other instances of shahar in the Qur'an, does it seem like it is referring to a full moon? Start here with 584
"But whoever cannot find the means must fast for two consecutive months before they may touch one another. And if he is unable, then the feeding of sixty needy people. This, in order that you affirm your faith in God and His Messenger. These are the ordinances of God. The unbelievers will have a painful punishment." 584
This verse is discussing the atonement for wrongly accusing your wife of being her mother, or worse, and clearly states that you will fast for two months. And if you cannot fast then you are obliged to feed a poor person for each day of the fast, which is why you must then feed 60 poor people.
This seems quite clear to me and I am not sure where the discrepancy lies for everyone. Please let me know.
Best regards and Salaam,
Clash.
-
From my understanding of this 2 185 there is no starting of ramadhan and no ending of ramadhan b'cos it refers to one person singular, ie the one witnessing the full moon should fast the next one day.
For a person living in northern parts like alaska or northern norway etc their summer month has no setting of the sun so they would witness a full moon. So its not obligatory on them. You have to witness it yourself.
Thats my understanding on 2 185 anyway submitter.
Thanks for reading and responding. -
-
From my understanding of this 2 185 there is no starting of ramadhan and no ending of ramadhan b'cos it refers to one person singular, ie the one witnessing the full moon should fast the next one day.
For a person living in northern parts like alaska or northern norway etc their summer month has no setting of the sun so they would witness a full moon. So its not obligatory on them. You have to witness it yourself.
Thats my understanding on 2 185 anyway submitter.
Thanks for reading and responding.Hello jemby97.
From MY understanding of
"So whoever witnesses among you the full moon"
refers to ALL the believers who witness it.As for the timing of ramadhan,
there certainly is a starting and an ending of it.
It starts when people witness the hot full moon (shahr ramadhan)
and ends when the crescent appears after the last quarter.Duration of fasting is 10 days
b'cos
the change from the full moon to the first crescent
takes 10 days.Full ----------- quarter -- waning crescent
O ------------>D---------> ) -
Some people think Ramadan is a month is because they are influenced by Hadith and Sunna . The true calendar should be lunar and solar not only lunar . The fabricated 'Muslim ' calendar was created years after prophet mohd dies . Therefore Ramadan is not the name of a month. I don't follow their silly calendar anymore and sorry will not follow their way of 1 mth fasting. Witnessing the crescent moon to fast 30 days are the practise of the Sabians and Hindus idolising the moon and incorporated by bukhari . I'll fast 2-3 days during winter solstice or as and when required for health purpose .
-
3639
And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it
returns like an old palm sheath.3639 does not say stages only but it says descending stages -.
The phases descend from the full moon
down to the very last crescent
which looks like a curved old palm sheathO------------->D-----------------> (in south hemisphere)
Full moon--->last quarter------last waning crescent -
Full moon is not equal to hot moon.
You are right,
hot moon is not equal to ANY one of the other 11 or 12 moons of the IDDAH (ة.
The full phase of the hot moon is the first full moon after the summer solstice;
plus, it is the largest and reddest of them all.Here are the times of its 9 appearances
15 Jul. 2011
03 Jul. 2012
23 Jun 2013
12 Jul. 2014
02 Jul. 2015
20 Jul. 2016
09 Jul. 2017
28 Jun 2018
17 Jul. 20192189
They ask you regarding the crescents, say ?They provide a timing
mechanism for the people and the Pilgrimage.? And piety is not
that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whoever
is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors. And
be aware of God that you may succeed.And here we learn that the month begins with the first appearance of waxing crescent and not full moon.
I don't understand.
Did somebody say
the month begins with the appearance of full moon?
Who?As for the crescents mentioned in 2189,
please remind yourself that they are not waxing
but WAINING crescents.Proof
Even in today's practice pilgrimage begins on Dhul Hijjah 10,
which is nearly full moon
and there are only WAINING crescents after Dhul Hijjah 10.In fact the ten-day period
should begin with the full moon of Shahr Dhul Hijjah
and end with the first waining crescent.O-----------D-) (This is the crescent which provides a timing mechanism for the pilgrimage)
I---10 days--IProbably
main doors of the homes stand for the full moons
and back doors crescents.... piety is whoever comes to the homes
from their main doors.If it's merely solar or lunar and not both, we wouldn't know the timing of Ramadhan and we wouldn't know when the 1 extra lunar month is.
You don't need the lunar year or the luni-solar year or the solar year in order to know when the 1 extra lunar month is. The only thing you need is a lunar calendar like this https//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2011&country=74
Will you please study
the hot full moon times
I gave you.In 2014 the hot full moon arrived 19 days later than the previous hot full moon, which shows that there was an extra lunar month in the previous iddah and that 1 extra moon delayed the arrival of the 2014 moon. I underlined it for you.
There are 2 more extra lunar months in the 10 iddahs, which you can easily spot and underline if you want.
15 Jul. 2011
03 Jul. 2012
23 Jun 2013
12 Jul. 2014
02 Jul. 2015
20 Jul. 2016
09 Jul. 2017
28 Jun 2018
17 Jul. 2019If you don't believe calendars, you can look up at a hot full moon when it appears, note the time it appears and if it has appeared 19 days later than the previous one you can know that there was 1 extra lunar month in the previous iddah.
-
If you don't believe calendars, you can look up at a hot full moon when it appears
Peace brook, it's simple i.e. count only "12" full moons after summer solstice (drop 13th between solstices) in northern hemisphere and same after winter solstice southern hemisphere.
full moon summer solstice
12 Jun 4 20-Jun 2012
1 Jul 3
2 Aug 2
3 Aug 31
4 Sep 30
5 Oct 29
6 Nov 28
7 Dec 28
8 Jan 27
9 Feb 25
10 Mar 27
11 Apr 25
12 May 25 21-Jun 2013
1 Jun 23
2 Jul 22
3 Aug 21
4 Sep 19
5 Oct 18
6 Nov 17
7 Dec 17
8 Jan 16
9 Feb 14
10 Mar 16
11 Apr 15
12 May 14
13 Jun 13 21-Jun 2014
1 Jul 12
2 Aug 10
3 Sep 9
4 Oct 8
5 Nov 6
6 Dec 6
7 Jan 5
8 Feb 3
9 Mar 5
10 Apr 4
11 May 4
12 Jun 2 21-Jun 2015
1 Jul 2
2 Jul 31
3 Aug 29
4 Sep 28
5 Oct 27
6 Nov 25
7 Dec 25
8 Jan 24
9 Feb 22
10 Mar 23
11 Apr 22
12 May 21
13 Jun 20 1102 20-Jun 2234 2016
1 Jul 19
2 Aug 18
3 Sep 16
4 Oct 16
5 Nov 14
6 Dec 14
7 Jan 12
8 Feb 11
9 Mar 12
10 Apr 11
11 May 10
12 Jun 9 21-Jun 2017
1 Jul 9
2 Aug 7
3 Sep 6
4 Oct 5
5 Nov 4
6 Dec 3
7 Jan 2
8 Jan 31
9 Mar 2
10 Mar 31
11 Apr 30
12 May 29 21-Jun 2018
1 Jun 28
2 Jul 27
3 Aug 26
4 Sep 25
5 Oct 24
6 Nov 23
7 Dec 22
8 Jan 21
9 Feb 19
10 Mar 21
11 Apr 19
12 May 18
13 Jun 17 21-Jun 2019
1 Jul 16
2 Aug 15
3 Sep 14
4 Oct 13
5 Nov 12
6 Dec 12
7 Jan 10
8 Feb 9
9 Mar 9
10 Apr 8
11 May 7
12 Jun 5 20-Jun 2020
1 Jul 5
2 Aug 3
3 Sep 2
4 Oct 1
5 Oct 31
6 Nov 30
7 Dec 30 -
Quran has a lunar-solar calender.
If it's merely solar or lunar and not both, we wouldn't know the timing of Ramadhan and we wouldn't know when the 1 extra lunar month is.The first full moon AFTER June 21, the longest daytime of the year...
let's call it the hot full moon as it initiates the hellish (981) hot days.Notice the arrival of the hot full moon of the year you are in.
If it arrives 19 days later than the previous one, you would know that the 1 extra lunar month is before it
(https//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2015&country=74)-------1----------2--------3--------4--------5--------6---------7-----------8----------9------10-------11-------12------13
Jul. 02 2015-Jul 31-Aug 29-Sep 28-Oct 27-Nov 25-Dec 25-Jan 24 2016-Feb 22-Mar 23-Apr 22-May 21-Jun 20
Jul. 20 2016-Aug 18-Sep 16-Oct 16-Nov 14-Dec 14-Jan 12 2017-Feb 11-Mar 12-Apr 11-May 10-Jun 09
Jul. 09 2017-Aug 07-Sep 06-Oct 05-Nov 04-Dec 03-Jan 02 2018-Jan 31-Mar 02-Mar 31-Apr 30-May 296 is 19 days later than 5 because it was delayed by the 1 extra lunar month of June 20 BEFORE the longest daytime of the year.
This year
shahr ramadan is...
July 09.For muslim believers
fasting starts on the morning of July 10,
after they witness the hot full moon.Whoever from among you witnesses that full moon shall, then, fast it.