65:4 tense child marriage/pedophilia
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In modern grammars the present with lam is taken to negate past. However in the Qur'an I doubt that that is so. I can't remember exacty but at some time i did investigate that and I found that that was nto at least always the case. On the other hand many women loose menses thorugh stress, sickness or other circumstances may be for years. It stands to reason, unless somebody is sick of mind that it is to those women it must refer because if it only referred to children who had not YET menstruated, then why not talk about those women who indeed loose menses? What about them.
Also, mood or no mood, past or not past if indeed it is past so what, who have not menstruated previous to that point for whatever reason, may be they have been menstruating for years, but not in the last few months, what do you put it in the present, what present? What does it mean they are not menstruating now. Women spend most of the time without mesntruating.
The whole thing is a joke, and also the fact that they insert the YET makes it clear they are not translating but putting their own thoughts in it.
On the other hand it is very typical, the insertion of those little words the Qur'an misses, because it must have been written by an idiot , and that the translators, generously gives us to that we get their point.
However, whens omething is tob e understood, they e?refuse like hell that it be understood in spite of it being the Qur'anic usage and there having in itseveral instances of it.
The problem with most of these shocking things is not in the text but in the readers already indoctrinadted to extract this, but not that. And forget that humans have a head and within it, a brain, and also even a heart and also something as elusive as common sense. To read the Qur'an you must aboslutely drop common sense.The Qur'an is some extraterrestrial thing. And we must also forget that aya where we are instructed to put the best meaning, or construction on what we read in the Qur'an. So for those for whomthe "have not yet menstruated" is the best meaning, ?Congratulations! you have earned the great price of getting to marry 72 children in thsi life and in the other...
Salaam
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According to God in Quran,
Marriage suitability= ability to judge between right and wrong/maturity.
Marriage is a serious matter as per 421.
Besides, God
shows distinction between women and children in 475
tells us women can't be inherited without their will in 419
confirms human life has 3 stages with "a child; then lets you reach your maturity, then lets you become old" in 4067
Thus, there is no way a child can be married.
However the word is also in jussive mood, meaning that she is expecting or it is coming. Hence they say addition of the word 'yet' is justified.
So that is linking to child marriage/pedophilia?It can also mean that she should be menstruating, that would be a good interpretation as it means she's past the age where a girl starts menstruating and she should already have it (16+). Naturally I like this more than the pedophilic interpretation but does this allign with the verse and the jussive nature of lam yahidna?
The verse has nothing to do with girl's age of marriage. It is about perimenopause. Women's biology
In later perimenopause, you may skip a period entirely, only to have it followed by an especially heavy one. Occasionally, menstrual periods will be skipped for several months, then return as regular as clockwork.
http//www.ourbodiesourselves.org/health-info/what-to-expect-perimenopause/ -
See
http//quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2065-4%20FM3.htm
and
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm (pay attention to bold and underlined part)That's exactly where my confusion is coming from because the author says her period is yet to come or albeit it's coming because of the jussive mood.
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Lam does not necessarily negate the past in the Qur'an, I think it negatessimply.
Take sura al ikhlas
Lam yalid we lam yulad
wa lam yakullahu kufwan ahad.SAY "He is the One God (1) "God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being. (2) "He begets not, and neither is He begotten; (3) "and there is nothing that could be compared with Him. (4)
As you see all is lam and all is translated in the present. So it may be true en present grammars that lam negates de past. But not in the Qur'an, even if we wanted to say that the first negations are past, say He was no begotten and He did not beget, the last one has to be present, or does He now have a partner.
Lam necessarily imposes on the sentence the jussive mood. It goes with it, we do not need to search for fantasy because of that, Lam = jussive.
But as in sura Al ikhlas as in many other instances, we can verify that the past thing does not fit. In Qur'anic use, lam clearly negates the present.
Those whodo not menstruate.
Of course such a statement can only be made after the time when they should have been menstruating has past, and in that sense it would be past, otherwise no need to say anything. It is obvious that women for most of the time are not menstruating, because that happens only about several days every 28 days and you can only say it when the usual time within those 28 days has passed. If not, if those days she happen to have the menses, you cannot say that she is not menstruating for the nest 24 days, because she may not be menstruates those twnty four days by she has mentruated when it was the time.
In fact for anybody who is not an extraterrestrial and lives in the same earth as most of us, the thing is not complicated at all, plain common sense. We can reason it out through grammar an checking with the Qura'nic text itself, but if we do need to do that, that does not say much about our brains and our mental state.
Only obssessed and emotionally ans sociallywrecked minds can come up with such formidable nonsense.
Salaam
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thanks as always huruf
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I've searched all over the Internet and while they're many claims that make sense saying this refers to women with irregular stops. but no one can disprove that this also means a young girl (because of the jussive meaning that it intends!!). Does this jussive term apply always?
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I've searched all over the Internet and while they're many claims that make sense saying this refers to women with irregular stops. but no one can disprove that this also means a young girl (because of the jussive meaning that it intends!!). Does this jussive term apply always?
No, no, it isn't about just any irregular stops. These are the women in their 40s 50s and 60s. We can also argue for the Quranic common law/resemblance. There has to be a verse which must show that a man married a female child and God is completely okay with it. Tell the sects to bring it. Only then we can accept beyond reasonable doubt that such marriage is approved.
Go to this link https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609108.msg400433#msg400433
Some Quran follower (seems to be a sectarian inside) tried to justify child marriage. He discontinued the debate when dissected verses about women were shown to him. I asked him questions too. He just didn't come to thread after this. -
Child marriage do happened in the past, in some societies marriages were arranged in the childhood, due to various reasons. it was completely seen normal, marriages in the teenage was common some decades back.
What if those people were not guided?
Did any prophet or other people do it in the Quran?As of now, child marriage is very much legal in most American states. I met women who went through it. Yet I wouldn't use this to justify what is not in the Quran, but upheld by sectarians as part of the deen.
Sects can do it simply because they follow atheist doctrine according to which consciousness and free will do not exist. In their eyes, your body and chemical decide whether you are a true Muslim. This is the perfect way to deny a person's right and feelings.
But Allah confirms that in marriage two people are supposed to find peace and love.
And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection ( means love and not affection) and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.3020
Another thing is that Allah wants us to be fully genuine. What we say with the mouth must match what we have in the heart. Promise is a big thing in Quran Islam
And they who are to their trusts and their promises attentive 238
Who will inherit al-Firdaus. They will abide therein eternally.2311
So no playing with the promise of marriage!
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Child marriage do happened in the past, in some societies marriages were arranged in the childhood, due to various reasons. it was completely seen normal, marriages in the teenage was common some decades back.
teen started with the end of thirteenth year so its quite understandable that 14/15/16 years girl marry with 14/15/16/17/18 years boy both are teen anyway..
about child marriage i may disagree , may b it was a normal practice for these people same like it was normal practice for them to kill their daughters in childhoood.. killing them or marrying them in childhood is the act of evil which cant be by God as per my understanding..
the age 6 or 9 with a person more than 50 years is a clear evil.. cannot be from God.. or any normal nation/people.
http//i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/609571920_2/3-6-Years-old-kids-beautiful-model-dresses-2012-fashion-Child-clothes-summer-skirt-free-shipping.jpg
this is a six years old girl... how people can even think to get married with that kid who just start understanding the nature of day and night.. and motion of sun and moon..
may God guide us to the right path
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Even now in some places, Marriage contracts are made at an age of 8 or 9 and couples are made to wait to consummate their marriage at their appropriate age. Thinking about Thousand years back?
totally non quranic practice...
drawbacks..
1 the choices of people become change with the passage of time(face, habbits, beauty)
2 quran advise us to engagge with eachother before marriage for better understanding eachother... 8 and 9 years is still immature age you cant understand eachother surely..
3 making somebody's life decision without their permission is also against God lawsnow think about thousand years back or one hundred thousand years back.. immorality is never encouraged by God in any age of time..
whoever is practicing these things even some of the places in india its still going on but its illegal to practice such acts...
so fourth point is the current practice is illegal hence you are also doing a crime against government laws..
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I see things differently, Ok now for example lets take a case of a girl aged 13, lost her parents, living in a desert community meager population, and now there are only some relatives of her in support for her, What do you think is the best for the girl, to be married or not? You take the role of a village leader to decide the future of the girl.
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I see things differently, Ok now for example lets take a case of a girl aged 13, lost her parents, living in a desert community meager population, and now there are only some relatives of her in support for her, What do you think is the best for the girl, to be married or not? You take the role of a village leader to decide the future of the girl.
ok if ill be the village leader i will decide for her to complete her basic education first atleast higher secondary school .. usually girls complete it when they are 16 .. after that i ll ask her if she want to study more or shall i look a husband for her... if she want to study further then i ll do my best to get her the education whatever she want... and if she want to get married i ll look for her a suitable partner...
in case 2 if a 13 years old girl want to get married i ll look a husband for her... and for atleast two years i ll get them engage so that they know eachother before spending life together ... in this case girls is 15... (my own grandmother married when she was fifteen my gandfather was 19 at that time a perfect match )
in case number 3 if a girls is 6 or 9 years old and a 50 years old person want to get married with her.. then i ll bring the shotgun of my ansectors and perhaps shoot him infront of the whole village (only if i allowed to shoot by God ) voodoo but i think i ll not shoot him as its against my learning ... but i ll make him taste of humilation for demanding such sick wish...
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imrankhwaja they're are muslims and people who very proudly say muhammad had a 9 year old wife...
it makes me sick to my stomach.
and they're stupid arguments..."oh life expectancy was 30!"
well my that logic a 9 year old would marry a fellow 9 year old or MAXIMUN 13 year old..
pedophilia...the one thing that makes me lose faith in a merciful god. but.. its more complicated than that.
i think like it says in the quran, if muhammad married a 9 year old girl allah would have punished him, taken the revelations away from him.
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imrankhwaja they're are muslims and people who very proudly say muhammad had a 9 year old wife...
pedophilia...the one thing that makes me lose faith in a merciful god. but.. its more complicated than that.
forget about people/nations claims
different people claim different weird things about God and his messengers, like christianity, judiasm and islam.. along with hindus and buddists...but what i dnt understand is why your faith is so much weak ?
dnt you beleive in creator who is full of love and full of truth and logic...
do you beleive if some folks claim something and address it to God... will you turn back on your heels?
you must beleive there is not any immorality and illogical thing could be from God other wise he is not God... (thats what logic and mind says about God)peace and God bless you..
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problem of evil is bugging me lately...
faith is not constant. sometimes its strong, sometimes its weak. perhaps when allah is worried you may use your faith to do bad actions, he makes it weak. perhaps when he thinks you need it to be strong, he makes it strong. who knows what he does peace
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Baitachal,
Since no one else appears to be addressing the specific concerns you have, let me do some research for you and give it a shot. As a disclaimer, I could be totally wrong about all or any of this, since I've only looked into it today.
The word "lam yahidna" is in past tense, "women who did not menstruate" , plus the word "yet" is not in the Arabic, hence this proves it's not referring to child marriage.
However the word is also in jussive mood, meaning that she is expecting or it is coming. Hence they say addition of the word 'yet' is justified.
So that is linking to child marriage/pedophilia?Bold I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion, and that conclusion only.
According to the word-by-word analysis of 654 provided by Qur'an Corpus, after lam and next to yai'na, we read "3rd person feminine plural imperfect verb, jussive mood." This is what you're focusing on, yes?
There are a couple different moods for the imperfect in Arabic. The jussive form is one of them. You seem to know this.
As you mentioned, "the jussive form is used in past tense sentences negated by lam" (from the Arabic section of the wikipedia article on jussive mood). According to this site, the jussive with is used to negate (or nullify) the past tense verb. Lam is present in verse 654, as a negative particle. So it's used here to negate the verb - that a given woman does not menstruate. This site further explains that lam is one of the four jussive negative particles that acts on an imperfect verb and negates the past event/verb. So these women (the verse is specifically talking about women, nisa, here) did not menstruate ("...and the ones who not menstruate". Menstruation is something that happened, that could happen, but doesn't anymore (for these women).
The Quranic Path article on the subject suggests that the verse can be referring to women who have never menstruated at all, or gone periods of time without menstruating (a condition called amenorrhea). In addition, sometimes women have premature menopause. (And obviously, all women eventually go into menopause.)
There are more women who may not fall into this exact category but may have irregular menstruation, where they may not menstruate at the same time every month. According to Web MD, "often women with PCOS have fewer than nine periods a year. Some women have no periods." This is a woman who cannot expert a regular menstrual cycle. Many women are affected by PCOS. Supposedly, the syndrome "affects between 8% and 20% of reproductive-age women worldwide" (source).
Interestingly, I also read that Qur'anically (in classical Arabic), is a "weaker" negation than others, potentially meaning something that is still possible but does not happen (see here, post #2 or here, post #12). If this understanding is correct, then it would follow that young girls cannot be of marriageable age because menstruation is not possible for them.
Moving on to other parts of the verse, if we're talking about someone who has despaired or given up hope of menstruation (as spoken about in the beginning of 654), then that likely implies that they have had it before and are waiting for it to come again, but don't believe it will. The only other situation I can imagine where a female would "give up hope" of menstruation is when they are well beyond the age they should be getting menarche (their first period). While the average age for menarche is 12, a girl can get it anywhere between the ages of 8 and 15. So IMO, a girl can only truly "give up hope" of menstruation once she is well beyond the age of 15 with no sign of menstruation (and of course she should also see a doctor). But again, the verse is talking about women, not girls.
Lamma is the classical negative particle that would be used if you were specifically talking about something that has not happened yet (see here). Example in Qur'an 4914 "...you should say 'We have submitted', for belief has not yet entered into your hearts.'"
Even if the Arabic said "did not yet", since the subject is women, it could simply be referring to women who did not yet menstruated in the specific month. After all, a woman does not truly know that she is not pregnant until she has gotten her period - especially in those times. There may have been no way to know about a woman's pregnancy until she was a few months into it. Additionally, menstruation can be delayed for all sorts of reasons, so whether it isn't a woman's time of the month or if she is late at the time of separation, they need to wait because they won't know if she's pregnant or not, and that's important because if she is, she needs to be supported (whether it emotionally, physically, financially...).
Finally, since the verse speaks about doubt/uncertainty over a woman's menstrual cycle. So we have to wonder why is that? For most women, her biggest concern or thought that comes to her mind when she doesn't have her period is pregnancy. If a woman does not have her period, she should have the adequate time to rule out pregnancy.
Anyways, these are my thoughts on the matter.
