Clearly Hateful postings - why?

EdQ

Because we stand for free speech?
This isn't a full on Islamic forum though. Everyone is welcomed here. So sometimes you will come across some of those who have problem with Quran.

How non-Muslims will treat these posts should not be our business. We aren't here to be clones of some other groups.

But can you see the sign? The country of the forum owner has been thrashed many times by a few Quran haters. He remains quiet. No one is abruptly asking to ban the haters. One hater keeps coming here to tell us we are sectarians, we worship the Quran, etc and then preaching us the "good things" which he himself does not adhere to. Majority of the monotheists here just wanted a discussion over it. They didn't go around calling for a ban on him. By this time, he would have been banned and forgotten at other forums. Can you see the sign?

All countries coming in the news are always criticized here. It doesn't matter if it is the US, Israel, UK or Russia. Why leave out the Muslim nations?

In my view, this forum is unique.

Its strength lies in being open to a wide variety of views no matter how thorny they are.

It is refreshing to see people making long posts which is something not common at other forums. I mean just take a look at councils of ex muslims or sunni forum. They always have "one liners" wrapped in group think. A challenger there usually gets banned or limited (saw how they treated our bigmo).

We have to be open to criticism. I welcome yours. Just avoid threads you don't like or just debunk what is posted to separate oil from water.

Wow..... Are we on the same planet?

Do you see hate speech as free speech?

More than happy to debate you once you understand the context of my posting and the posting.

There is really no need to patronize others with the free speech meme. There is not such thing as free speech. Thats why the leader of free speech, the USA drops bombs on people who they disagree with (as long as they are non-white).

Over to you...

Can you see the shape?

reel

Wow..... Are we on the same planet?

Do you see hate speech as free speech?

I surely don't know your definition of hate speech.

More than happy to debate you once you understand the context of my posting and the posting.

There is really no need to patronize others with the free speech meme. There is not such thing as free speech.

Outside maybe not. In Islam, yes and we have to abide by it if we are truly wanting to follow the Quran.

And be patient over what they say and avoid them with gracious avoidance.7310

And when you see those who engage in discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.668

And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, "For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant."2855

Thats why the leader of free speech, the USA drops bombs on people who they disagree with (as long as they are non-white).

Over to you...

Can you see the shape?

Some among the bombed people hate nonwhites too. Unfortunately, US constitution does not include foreign policy

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Over time I have seen some posters come from "traditional" understandings to much firmer understandings. Logic and cool presentation, especially over time and by multiple people, tend to have the effect of inviting...and even if the original poster has a hardened heart, other viewers and lurkers may listen to the best of what is being said and embrace it.

There is no need to "shout down" a posting. Truth and logic go far--and to counter hate with hate is giving somebody exactly what they expect--and it plays into the hands of hateful people. It is as easy to take a rude posting at face value as it is to respect the integrity of a known perjurer. Consider 4133-34

4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to God, and does good works, and says "I am one of those who have submitted."

4134 Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.

Of course, sometimes posters do go too far--and there is an ignore user option for that.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

savage_carrot

I can see where Ed is coming from which is an issue I've raised on the forum on multiple occasions The capacity of some to mostly see things in black and white and then to use that as justification to interpret and judge collectively willy nilly. Whether the judging or interpretation comes first is interesting at times. Would I call it hate speech? Sure, sometimes it is. That's why more context is needed rather than just an isolated stupid opinion which as other posters have mentioned can only happen with more dialogue. Most of the times if the discourse is civil, it is usually beneficial. If it isn't, it's still beneficial to go through the motions in a way that others can learn from the exchange. If it happens consistently is when other avenues are considered. Tbh, these sorts of concepts and/or opinions are so endemic in certain groups/people that it's not even up for debate, it's like a commonly accepted truth of some sort...any dissent about it usually serves to either harden the shell or make the person think the ones who dare not see it or argue about it are coming from a a totally different planet.

When a terror action is committed you have stated that you wish it is not a Muslim?

Wow - that's what I call conditioning. You are assuming that terrorist actions are isolated actions and that the people who have learning difficulties who commit hose atrocities believe in the Quran.
The reality is that the Western governments use those terrorists to keep Muslim countries in a state of permanent backwardness - how else do you explain the US funding Saudi Arabia?
So my take on it is - what a bunch of Godless and Crusading devils - the lot of them - the Hadithists like Saudi family and the US and its allies who call the Middle East - hell - and then murder people to plant Europeans on a piece of the Arabian peninsula.

I leave you to your own subjective understanding.

If after an event such as a terrorist attack a simple thing as going to the grocery store even is fraught with untold danger, should we write down sticky notes suggesting we aren't the ones responsible in bright colors, well defined fonts and slap them onto our coats? Geopolitical actions cause this to happen! I'm just an innocent person of color? Perhaps you haven't experienced that feeling of intense fear or discomfort for long stretches at a time wondering if you should even leave the house? Holding an opinion that it was due to xyz does absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things like making that walk and interacting with others who are judging you and not very kindly I may add. You may even need to take a rain coat to deflect some spitting on occasion and/or headphones to tune out the comments headed your way especially if you're using public transport. I wouldn't recommend a back pack for carrying the groceries home in since that just may give the wrong impression. I fail to see how conditioning has anything to do with this, my opinions or yours regarding why it happens or how have nothing to do with the way I'm going to be treated because of the way I look. That's why I, along with others, dread any of these events especially if you're living in a country where the majority isn't Muslim. Until the world changes and unicorns frolic in the fields, we will have to deal with this by wishing that it wasn't 'us'. Some even celebrate by sighs of relief if it isn't 'us'. It used to be enough to just hope it wasn't your countryman but that wasn't very empathetic and now decades later, it doesn't matter because no matter where you're from if you check the visual boxes, thou shalt be judged with a beam to the face, or eye.

Jack

free my boy speech he did nothing wrong.

I surely don't know your definition of hate speech.

A meme, duh.

Any speech that doesn't fit our worldview, i guess. Insulting language towards specific people isn't allowed anyway so i don't really get what the point is.

EdQ

I surely don't know your definition of hate speech.

Outside maybe not. In Islam, yes and we have to abide by it if we are truly wanting to follow the Quran.

And be patient over what they say and avoid them with gracious avoidance.7310

And when you see those who engage in discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.668

And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, "For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant."2855

Some among the bombed people hate nonwhites too. Unfortunately, US constitution does not include foreign policy

I do not have a definition of hate speech. I only use the one that the civilized international community use from a legal perspective.
I have used this definition to even take issue with people in government in the UK and been vindicated.

What I believe is in mutual respect and when people use hatred to encite further hatred and violence I will ALWAYS challenge it irrespective of the colour or religion or gender of a person and irrespective of whether I believe the person is in my "group" or not.

Lets not con ourselves and say we are "in Islam" - we are in the real outside world and deal with real outside variables - Even if someone encites hate on a web portal or even Twitter it can now be legally prosecuted - even if the poster mistakenly thinks that anonymity works - even this poster will realize how real the world of Twitter is.

Debate is the whole reason we are here, but if you look at the posts of some of the unintelligent haters (on both sides) since the Manchester attacks, you will see some truly disgusting hate speech and threats to kill - one of such threats in the past led to the murder of a UK MP - so please don't try and believe that we are not in the real lowly world.

If the actual people whose relatives are bombed hate the bombers - do you find this difficult to believe?
I am not justifying hate here, but you seem to be using an extreme example.
What about all the US racists who hate people for no reason other than the reason that they would like to define "race" as a function of the colour of someone's skin?

Ed

EdQ

I can see where Ed is coming from which is an issue I've raised on the forum on multiple occasions The capacity of some to mostly see things in black and white and then to use that as justification to interpret and judge collectively willy nilly. Whether the judging or interpretation comes first is interesting at times. Would I call it hate speech? Sure, sometimes it is. That's why more context is needed rather than just an isolated stupid opinion which as other posters have mentioned can only happen with more dialogue. Most of the times if the discourse is civil, it is usually beneficial. If it isn't, it's still beneficial to go through the motions in a way that others can learn from the exchange. If it happens consistently is when other avenues are considered. Tbh, these sorts of concepts and/or opinions are so endemic in certain groups/people that it's not even up for debate, it's like a commonly accepted truth of some sort...any dissent about it usually serves to either harden the shell or make the person think the ones who dare not see it or argue about it are coming from a a totally different planet.
If after an event such as a terrorist attack a simple thing as going to the grocery store even is fraught with untold danger, should we write down sticky notes suggesting we aren't the ones responsible in bright colors, well defined fonts and slap them onto our coats? Geopolitical actions cause this to happen! I'm just an innocent person of color? Perhaps you haven't experienced that feeling of intense fear or discomfort for long stretches at a time wondering if you should even leave the house? Holding an opinion that it was due to xyz does absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things like making that walk and interacting with others who are judging you and not very kindly I may add. You may even need to take a rain coat to deflect some spitting on occasion and/or headphones to tune out the comments headed your way especially if you're using public transport. I wouldn't recommend a back pack for carrying the groceries home in since that just may give the wrong impression. I fail to see how conditioning has anything to do with this, my opinions or yours regarding why it happens or how have nothing to do with the way I'm going to be treated because of the way I look. That's why I, along with others, dread any of these events especially if you're living in a country where the majority isn't Muslim. Until the world changes and unicorns frolic in the fields, we will have to deal with this by wishing that it wasn't 'us'. Some even celebrate by sighs of relief if it isn't 'us'. It used to be enough to just hope it wasn't your countryman but that wasn't very empathetic and now decades later, it doesn't matter because no matter where you're from if you check the visual boxes, thou shalt be judged with a beam to the face, or eye.

Thanks savage_carrot,

You have used wise and pertinent words that echo what I have seen and how I also feel on this issue.

I agree that some posters do not necessarily need to be banned but at least told to realize that they are being hateful or using hate precursors.

My own family spans two cultures, colours and religions - so, somewhat annoyingly I always find myself seeing the hate from at least both sides if not all sides and defending all sides.
Ed

EdQ

Greetings and Peace, all group

Over time I have seen some posters come from "traditional" understandings to much firmer understandings. Logic and cool presentation, especially over time and by multiple people, tend to have the effect of inviting...and even if the original poster has a hardened heart, other viewers and lurkers may listen to the best of what is being said and embrace it.

There is no need to "shout down" a posting. Truth and logic go far--and to counter hate with hate is giving somebody exactly what they expect--and it plays into the hands of hateful people. It is as easy to take a rude posting at face value as it is to respect the integrity of a known perjurer. Consider 4133-34

4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to God, and does good works, and says "I am one of those who have submitted."

4134 Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.

Of course, sometimes posters do go too far--and there is an ignore user option for that.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Salam,

This is not about shouting down someone or ignoring someone. This is about challenging something very specific. It is called Hate and this leads to hate encitement. That is illegal in the civilized world.

There is a lot of "normal" posting that borders "passable" hate or intentional ignorance - I see it every day. However, I am prepared to personally challenge that or humbly educate them and if not ignore them. What I would take beyond is when raw hate is being used and dressed up. Again, it does not matter who the hater or what their colour or religion is.

We can't pretend to come on this website and pretend to be all fuddy duddy and ignore the real world. This is the real world and just like our Islam, our behaviour should aim to be constant and measured.

Salam
Ed

imrankhawaja

to admins and members

is calling any beleiver as an athiest is also a hate speech?

or its called self proclaimed judgement ?

waiting for responses

reel

free my boy speech he did nothing wrong.

A meme, duh.

Any speech that doesn't fit our worldview, i guess. Insulting language towards specific people isn't allowed anyway so i don't really get what the point is.

Yeah I know. I have seen appropriate action taken against those who do personal attacks using foul language here. But I haven't seen any user talking about violence except for a few. One turned out to be an ISIS agent. Then there was another one who thought we might be available for extreme hatred for "infidels" of the west. Both were annoyed by how no one cared here. They left on their own.

I do not have a definition of hate speech. I only use the one that the civilized international community use from a legal perspective.
I have used this definition to even take issue with people in government in the UK and been vindicated.

Because they are people in the GOVERNMENT. They know no matter how they behave they won't be fired. Quite a universal problem.

What I believe is in mutual respect and when people use hatred to encite further hatred and violence I will ALWAYS challenge it irrespective of the colour or religion or gender of a person and irrespective of whether I believe the person is in my "group" or not.

Of course you are doing the right thing by challenging. If you see anything violent just report.

Lets not con ourselves and say we are "in Islam" - we are in the real outside world and deal with real outside variables - Even if someone encites hate on a web portal or even Twitter it can now be legally prosecuted - even if the poster mistakenly thinks that anonymity works - even this poster will realize how real the world of Twitter is.

I don't think Twitter US has that yet. But I do know in some countries it exists and the government people have abused it, but for some reason they do not take action when a terrorist makes a real threat just before an attack.

Anyways, users come here are from a wide variety of countries and age groups. Some sparks are, therefore, will always be present.

Debate is the whole reason we are here, but if you look at the posts of some of the unintelligent haters (on both sides) since the Manchester attacks, you will see some truly disgusting hate speech and threats to kill - one of such threats in the past led to the murder of a UK MP - so please don't try and believe that we are not in the real lowly world.

Can we see the link of the threat?

If the actual people whose relatives are bombed hate the bombers - do you find this difficult to believe?

Maybe some of the users have similar hatred for the bombed? Maybe they have a story to tell? I have been told here too that through Trump we will feel what the bombed people experienced. But so what? I know they have stories to tell. My country isn't innocent.

I am not justifying hate here, but you seem to be using an extreme example.
What about all the US racists who hate people for no reason other than the reason that they would like to define "race" as a function of the colour of someone's skin?

Ed

When spotted they lose their jobs. They are currently the American ISIS. As soon as they do a crime, all Trump supporters get targeted because people believe they are to be blamed for electing a racist with violent dreams.

Anoushirvan

Dear admins and moderators,

I'm the guy the OP keeps referring to about "hateful" speech, because I said that "Muslim countries are in Hell".

See here
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609558.0

And according to him, you have put me on a watch list. Ok, fair enough.

I said that and I maintain that because in my understanding of Quran, Hell and Paradise are not in afterlife but on Earth.
So by this understanding, Hell is a disgraced place on Earth of big spiritual confusion.
It applies well to some countries today, not only Muslim one, btw. I can't help it.

The goal is not do takfir but to wake-up awareness.

I admit it's not very keen, and I know that some people are really upset when I say that Hell and Paradise are not in afterlife but on Earth.
So if you believe it is against the forum rules, it is up to you to erase my statements. But of course, then it would be more appropriate to change the name of the forum.

Likewise if you believe my statements in the thread above are hateful and against the rules, please go into it and erase them.

But please, do me a favour and also remove his statements that West is responsible of the misfortune of the poor Muslim countries, of funding Islamic terrorism, and other anti-israeli statements.
Because by the same standard, these are also to be qualified as "hateful" speech.

Thanks.

EdQ

Yeah I know. I have seen appropriate action taken against those who do personal attacks using foul language here. But I haven't seen any user talking about violence except for a few. One turned out to be an ISIS agent. Then there was another one who thought we might be available for extreme hatred for "infidels" of the west. Both were annoyed by how no one cared here. They left on their own.

Because they are people in the GOVERNMENT. They know no matter how they behave they won't be fired. Quite a universal problem.

Of course you are doing the right thing by challenging. If you see anything violent just report.

I don't think Twitter US has that yet. But I do know in some countries it exists and the government people have abused it, but for some reason they do not take action when a terrorist makes a real threat just before an attack.

Anyways, users come here are from a wide variety of countries and age groups. Some sparks are, therefore, will always be present.
Can we see the link of the threat?

Maybe some of the users have similar hatred for the bombed? Maybe they have a story to tell? I have been told here too that through Trump we will feel what the bombed people experienced. But so what? I know they have stories to tell. My country isn't innocent.
When spotted they lose their jobs. They are currently the American ISIS. As soon as they do a crime, all Trump supporters get targeted because people believe they are to be blamed for electing a racist with violent dreams.

Either society is governed or there is anarchy. If one needs to be critical than it should be about the "way" of governance or perhaps even this thing called democracy - which has been purchased by companies and commercialized to the extent that it is about a rate of increase of interest rather than about the life of people around us - whether that is people who die of lack of heating themselves at home or are bombed in illegal invasions elsewhere.
Also, in relation to the actual discussion before your last post, the problem is not government but encitement to hatred and this leads to wars and murder.
So to have laws that help prevent hatred and violence is good.

So if you were (or not) in government you would say that people should stop violence.... Anarchists would probably disagree with you.
Each to their own. I say stop at enciting hatred and hating.

Can you link to the Twitter terrorist threat where not action was taken?

Please google Jo Cox - and the threats made by EDL and its allied hordes, before her death and even after to other MPs - and against so-called white traitors who are selling out the country.

When you justify the feelings of the "users" for bombing people, do you really try to justify bombing of helpless innocent people due to hatred?
As you have an insight into their feelings, what is their story or justification of bombing people?

If you feel that Trump supporters are so upright that they need consolation, you are welcome to explain their psyche to those who don't understand.
Usually the alt-right community that adore Trump don't have any problems expressing their views about their hatred of non-whites but I am sure your take will be interesting.

The_Sardar

I said that and I maintain that because in my understanding of Quran, Hell and Paradise are not in afterlife but on Earth.
So by this understanding, Hell is a disgraced place on Earth of big spiritual confusion.

Salamun Aleykum everyone
Uh Anoushirvan i found these verses and im having doubts about what you said in the quote above

Here are the verses

2964 This worldly life is no more than fun and distraction, while the abode of the Hereafter is the reality, if they only knew.

143 The ones who have preferred the worldly life over the Hereafter, and they repel from the path of God, and they seek to make it crooked. Those are the ones who are in misguidance.

1326 God gives the provisions for whom He wishes, and He is Capable. And they were happy with the worldly life, but the worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing except a brief enjoyment.

1064 There is good news for them in this world and in the Hereafter. God?s Words never change. This, this is the Supreme Triumph.

Note from Dr Shabbir Ahmed And changeless are His laws, 6115, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823. And you will never find even a slight turn in His laws 1777

938 O you who believe, what is wrong with you when you are told "Mobilize in the cause of God," you become heavy on the earth. Have you become content with this worldly life over the Hereafter? The enjoyment of this worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing.

632 The life of this world is a play and a passing delight (in comparison to the Eternal Life). The abode of the Hereafter is far better for those who live according to the Divine laws. Will you not use reason?

I copied and pasted from Quranix.org, if any one happened to have great knowlagde of Classical Arabic (The language of Al-Quran) it would interesting to hear from both sides of the story.

May God (SWT) bless you all.
P.S i cant read arabic '(

EdQ

Dear admins and moderators,

I'm the guy the OP keeps referring to about "hateful" speech, because I said that "Muslim countries are in Hell".

So by this understanding, Hell is a disgraced place on Earth of big spiritual confusion.
It applies well to some countries today, not only Muslim one, btw. I can't help it.

So from Hell being a disgraced place on Earth we get to Muslim countries??? Is that due to any particular hatred you feel?
You don't feel that the disgraced places can collectively be non-Muslim countries using your logic?
Or is your criterion for "disgrace" just Muslim countries?

But please, do me a favour and also remove his statements that West is responsible of the misfortune of the poor Muslim countries, of funding Islamic terrorism, and other anti-israeli statements.
Because by the same standard, these are also to be qualified as "hateful" speech.

Oh, so I got it wrong, the West didn't invade Iraq? or Syria? or Libya?

Oh.... I see, you disagree about my political take on the situation of illegal invasions and their link with terrorism?
The very thing that David Cameron, Boris "The Brexiteer" Johnson and Jez Corbyn have said?

Or do you disagree with me about statements relating to the media where the UK has admitted to supporting terrorists in the Middle East? Or where US has been reported to have done the same?

You disagree with me that Israel is located on the Arabian Peninsula and was granted as a homeland by UK and France to Jewish folk from Europe in the Balfour declaration (where amongst other places Kenya was a possible homeland)?

What do you make of this by an Israeli ex-IDF scientist
https//academic.oup.com/gbe/article/5/1/61/728117/The-Missing-Link-of-Jewish-European-Ancestry

Is this Jewish UK-based scientist being hateful towards Israel? If so, why has he been published in the elite peer-reviewed scientific journals? Could you kindly identify his hate?

I would be happy to start a debate with you in the political section about this if you like?

In any case, please could you identify where exactly the hate is from this "OP"?

They call me Ed by the way. And they say I love the Quran.

Sincerely signed by
Ed

Anoushirvan