salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
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Salaam Wakas,
I thank you for you very well written post and for sharing your thoughts with me. As I think about this discussion, it occurred to me that we may be assuming that each other thinks exactly the same about the key words here islam, iman and belief. We may be mistaken and therefore, this time, I will start with my definition of each of the terms
Islam This is what I wrote in a previous post
One that delivers No Harm, and One that delivers his direction to GOD, and his accpetance to GOD, in peace. Part of this may include the SALAT, the ZAKAT etcIman Trust in GOD and feeling safe in GOD
As you may notice there is no belief in my definitions. That is because belief is relative. When a person reaches a certain degree of belief (which varies) they may decide to follow Islam (which is an act and a decision). When the belief reaches a higher degree then they trust and feel safe in GOD (mumins, which is a feeling, yet when tested, it shows strongly).
Now, allow me to point our differences as I see them
I say when the pagans turn (to GOD, peace), uphold the SALAT and The ZAKAT, they become muslim (according to my definition of islam), and therefore their Salat is like their other brothers in the deen.
You say They stay pagans and therefore their SALAT cannot be the same as the muslims' salat.
It could be that we are looking at the same thing from different angles.
I thank you for sharing your thoughts on the traditional prayers. The three muslim groups are closer in their prayer practices than the people at Free minds. There is a core that they accept
1- They pray 3-5 times. The Shia pray three times because they combine the two other prayers. Something that the sunnis do at times.
2- The Ibadhis do not do Qunut, which is non essential.
3- The three do Stand and then bow and then prostrate (the core of traditional SALAT in my view).
4- Some put their hands on their stomach and others not. This is very minor.
5- Other religions have the same patterns, christian kneeling, jewish bowing, buddhist prostrating. This suggests to some that Idolation is rampant. What about that this is somehting close to the core original truth.I do appreciate this great learning opportunity with you and I hope that you have a wonderful week.
Hussein
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Salaam brother born again,
Thank you for your question. It is very helpful and very thought provoking.
- We know that Prophet Mohammad didn?t allow writing hadiths. For one minute imagine that you don?t know any hadiths. How would you pray? Would you even know that you have to face a qibla when praying?
Actually the Salat did not come from Hadith, it came from what people would call Sunna Mutawatira. This means that thousands of people watched the prophet pray and they prayed with him. Muslims prayed before Bukhari the same way as after him. The salat comes from those thousands that prayed and showed their children and their grandchildren and so on. So, to correct your knowledge SALAT did not come from the books of Hadith. Same with ZAKAT, SAWM and HAJJ.
- If the prophet performed the salat where did he get the details? Was he following other books than Quran? Why did he call Allah akbar?
The prophet did perform the Salat
4102 When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their (sujood )prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.
So here is an order for the prophet to lead the SALAT, Standing and Sujood, all in one Ayah. They indicate that this was part of the Salat.I do not know where the prophet learned his prayer, but if GOD did not like it, he would have told him. GOD did not approve of other things that the prophet did, and the Qur'an talked about them.
- Why is there not any clue for the prayer we perform in the Quran? (No adhan; no sajda, ruku and salat together in a verse; no verse ordaining us to perform sajda and ruku when praying or in some specific times of the day just an ordain to recite the Quran?)
The above Aya 4102 puts Sujood in the SALAT clearly.
Aya 2125 puts the RUKOO and SUJOOD together. Then you can connect them together.If you want to do Salat without Rukoo and Sujood, then go for it. You probably would be advised to do Sujood at some time and Rukoo at another since they were all mentioned in a good light. Putting the Sujood and Rukoo in the Salat makes it easier and more efficient. The Adhan was mentioned in the HAJJ. It is just a way to announce the Salat and makes good logic.
- The Quran tells us that those who believe in Allah and do good will enter heaven.
The Salat is part of the good things that you do. It reminds you of your need to be humble in front of GOD, and in front of man. This is a key ingredient of doing good. There are many Ayat that clearly indicate the importance of SALAT. I am certain that you are aware of them.
Each person has to do what he or she honestly believes is needed. In the end, it is GOD that decides who goes to heaven or hell, and definitely, not me.
I hope that I was of help to you. You have a good day
Hussein
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Peace all,
Just an observation to consider, not part of this study.
In some budhist or christian rites, there are people who completely lay on their belly to show their prostration and submissiveness to their god(s). Are they more submissive than the ones only making a "rokou" or "soujoud" in the commonly known fashion?
Since there is no presribed method to do it, can we improve the method to show more... (please fill in the blank)?
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PEACE HUSSEIN
Please don't take the following comments as criticism of you; it is given as dawah.
I do not know where the prophet learned his prayer, but if GOD did not like it, he would have told him. GOD did not approve of other things that the prophet did, and the Qur'an talked about them.
If you do not know where the Prophet, allegedly, learned the "prayer", then how can you promulgate that it is from Allah/an obligation of His Deen? We, given ayat 733, know that Allah has forbidden/made haram, saying things about Him of which we have no knowledge, to conjecture or give an opinion. If we cannot with certitude determine that, something we doing in His name definitely from Him, then we are told not to follow it--1736.
- Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made forbidden/haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
1736 And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.
Main Entry OPINION belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.
Main Entry IMPRESSION a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.
Main Entry POSITIVE not speculative incontestable independent of changing circumstances.
Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.
Main Entry CERTAIN known or proved to be true indisputable, dependable, reliable.
Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.
Actually the Salat did not come from Hadith, it came from what people would call Sunna Mutawatira. This means that thousands of people watched the prophet pray and they prayed with him. Muslims prayed before Bukhari the same way as after him. The salat comes from those thousands that prayed and showed their children and their grandchildren and so on. So, to correct your knowledge SALAT did not come from the books of Hadith. Same with ZAKAT, SAWM and HAJJ.
My question to you is...how do you know thousands of people watched the Prophet do the so-called ritual prayer? You must, in all fairness and truth admit that, you were not a witness to his comments or actions, hence, you are choosing to believe what others have said about what he said or did, but, in fact, you don't know for a certitude...do you?
Main Entry WITNESS one who has personal knowledge of something.
Main Entry PERSONAL done in person without the intervention of another.
Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.
6116 If you were to follow/obey most of those on earth, they would misguide you from Allah's Way. They follow nothing but conjecture. They are only guessing.
1036 Most of them follow nothing but conjecture. Conjecture is of no use whatsoever against the truth. Allah most certainly knows what they are doing.
Given the above ayats and definitions then, you have no knowldege of what the Prophet did or said as you were not a witness, hence, to do the so-called ritual prayer or promote it or accept its being done, is to follow conjecture.
The only truth/knowledge we have about what the Prophet said or did is stated in Al-Quran.
4166 But Allah bears witness to what He has sent down to you. He has sent it down with His knowledge. The angels bear witness as well. And Allah suffices as a Witness.
The Salat is part of the good things that you do.
For the salat/ritual prayer to be a good thing, it must be prescribed by Allah, otherwise, it is wasted effort.
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Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-
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"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
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They are those who deny the Ayats of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.
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Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
To follow the Sunnah, Hadiths or both, is giving Allah a partner...Muhammad, and the hadith compilers.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salaam priest Bomkei,
Thanks for your thought provoking post.
If you do not know where the Prophet, allegedly, learned the "prayer", then how can you promulgate that it is from Allah/an obligation of His Deen? We, given ayat 733, know that Allah has forbidden/made haram, saying things about Him of which we have no knowledge, to conjecture or give an opinion. If we cannot with certitude determine that, something we doing in His name definitely from Him, then we are told not to follow it--1736.
I have shown that the prophet prayed. There are many Ayat that ask the people who are muslims and mumins to perform SALAT. GOD saw the way the prophet prayed and did not criticise it. This is an approval for me.
My question to you is...how do you know thousands of people watched the Prophet do the so-called ritual prayer? You must, in all fairness and truth admit that, you were not a witness to his comments or actions, hence, you are choosing to believe what others have said about what he said or did, but, in fact, you don't know for a certitude...do you?
Those same questions can apply to you. We never know for certitude. Do you truly and honestly believe that it did not occur? Don't you think that you, like me are following your own suspicions? except that our suspicions are different.
For the salat/ritual prayer to be a good thing, it must be prescribed by Allah, otherwise, it is wasted effort.
Well, I did present an Aya that asked the prophet to perform Salat and it had in it Sujood. I also presented another AYA that puts Rukoo and Sujood together. You ignored them. I am familiar with the people that claim that Sujood is submission. To me they are not convinving.
- "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
This is an Aya for all of us to remember. We all can fall in it. May GOD protect us from it.
Someone said
Since there is no presribed method to do it, can we improve the method to show more... (please fill in the blank)?
Each one will have to arrive at what suits him or her. I know that mocking is not the method that was prescribed. Thank you for your contribution though.
With this, I am going to stop posting on this subject, at least for now. This is mostly because of work, also to help all of us to reflect on what each of us had written. Take care all and have a great week.
Hussein
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Peace upon you hlatif,
The tone of my question seems "mocking" indeed, I apologize for it, no harm was intended, it's only a way to enable some more thinking.
And thank you for not responding in the same "tone" as me. I ask the god to forgive me and to show us the way.
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peace be upon you Hussein,
the primry mening of islm is simply a word meaning compliance/submission/surrender/conformance. it shouldn't really have a religious connotation.
I repeat myself
the primary meaning of islm is complince etc. the word has nothing inherently to do with God. if it had an inherent implication of god then there would be no need to mention "compliance to... insert object here (e.g. The God)" as it does in many places in al quran. i know brother Anwar, who is well knowledgble of Clssicl Arabic has wrote many pages about this point.
how about some clear undisputble examples of common usage...
4816, 2731, 2738
dont get me wrong, its secondary meaning can be islam, as in our system/obligation, fine, but dont mke out Islam/Muslim should have a capital or the God is inherently implied whenever this word is used. thats wrong in my opinion. Names mean nothing. Other prophets did not use Arbic, thus they obviously never used "Islam or Muslim", thus if they used the word (I'll make one up) "phareps" you think it would be right to attach a special capital to this word and associate the God with its usge and make out its somehow special. the word by itself is not special, the meaning is what is important.
same with iman, it just means faith/belief/conviction etc., nothing inherently to do with God. see the following common usage 213, 2285, 776, 1051, 1083, 1090
Now, allow me to point our differences as I see them
I say when the pagans turn (to GOD, peace), uphold the SALAT and The ZAKAT, they become muslim (according to my definition of islam), and therefore their Salat is like their other brothers in the deen.
You say They stay pagans and therefore their SALAT cannot be the same as the muslims' salat.
No, I do not say that, al quran says that. it treats them as if they are still pagans, on the other hand, you are the one who extrapolates "twb/turn/repent" into "turn to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam in a public/formal declaration" and have belief like believers and make prayer like we do so you may be forgiven, if not, take the other option of we will help you to safety with no apology, no re-commitment, no compensation, nothing in return and you can live amongst us quite happily whilst no one can harm you in any way.
I guess you feel that is the most likely trans. Fair enough.
Our discussion was interesting, and if I may say so, you showed excellent manner/character, an example of how it should be done. Thanks for that.
Bro, the way i see it, at some point in all our lives, we all come to a cross-roads, when we get to the decision-point, we have to make the choice, which direction to take, will we return on the path already trodden simply because we are familiar with it, or will we have the strength/conviction to let our inner compass guide us to the truth? all i can say is follow your heart, just like i do. the heart does not lie, surely, it is the best guide since the God has told us that He has set within us all an inner compass of truth.
at the end of the day, I disagree with your opinion but i accept your right to have such an opinion, and i still regard you as a brother.
God bless.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you Hlatif
4102 When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their (sujood )prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.
Just a few points considering your and traditional translation of the verse for you to ponder on.
- This is the ONLY verse that has ?sujood? and ?salat? in it. But where?s the rukou? Isn?t it an integral part of the salat, too?
- There?s no command to RECITE REVELATIONS? They are just going to perform sujood then what?
- Why are people who will perform sujoud take their guns with them? The ayat suggests that they can put away their guns because of the inconvenience of rain (injuries from rain literally isnt it?). This means that they can not put away their guns in other circumstances. I don?t see how anybody can perform sujoud and rukou with a gun in his hand and besides logically, the ones who must carry the gun should be in the front of the praying group so they can protect them but in the ayat we can see that those who will perform prayer goes to front and takes their gun with them. Are you sure they are praying?
Take care and have a nice day...
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peace be upon you Hussein, all,
Further evidence of my maqam/position came to mind...
I feel you extrapolated 'twb' to 'convert', and in this specific example its used for Pagans converting to muslims/believers/adherents of Islam (or whatever you feel they converted to). I believe we tried the logic via context route, but there is another route we didn't venture down to find out if this is an extrapolation or not, and that route is how al quran itself uses the root twb.
The root twb is used about 90 times in al quran, thus my question is
how many occurrences out of the 90 are clearly used in the manner you suggested?
Wakas
References
Concordance of Quran
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=extrapolate -
Salaam Wakas,
how many occurrences out of the 90 are clearly used in the manner you suggested?
It is actually not a matter of number. All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD. Some of them have GOD mentioned, others are followed by Iman and so forth.
This one does not have all the other associations, yet it clearly talks about the followers of the prophet.
11112 Therefore stand firm (in the straight Path) as thou art commanded,- thou and those who with thee turn (Taba maaaka); and transgress not (from the Path) for He seeth well all that ye do.
Salaam and good bye.
Hussein
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Salaam Hussein,
All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD.
Does God turn/convert to the people "taba Allah"? If what you say above is true then explain the occurances where taba is used for Allah alone. Is it turn to God or God turns toward, or maybe if you so choose, God converts?
Joe
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peace be upon you Hussein,
All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD.
The word simply means turn/repent. The word itself has no inherent association with The God, that is why al quran often mentions The God in the context. Just like the words islam/muslim/iman have no inherent association with The God. The word just means turn/repent, and like in English, neither of those words has an inherent association with The God.
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=repent
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=turne.g. are you implying, for example, a thief must convert in order to be forgiven?
I can find many examples where it cannot mean "convert". This isn't even one of its dictionary meanings. In fact, even the dictionary meanings do not state the word has an inherent association with The God.
Can you find equivalent examples, where it is clearly used in the manner you suggested?
As brother Joe pointed out, I do not regard 11112 as an example.
Wakas
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Salaam Joe and Wakas,
This will be my last post on Free-minds. However, i am happy to answer your questions at this point and with this I am saying good bye to all of you.
Joe said
I'm hoping that's not your evidence for a conversion theme? It clearly talks about the followers of the rasool and the rasool himself mind you "as also those who turn with thee" .
They all turned to GOD and they all converted to Islam, including the prophet. When you turn to GOD, you are a muslim in many ways because you are also submitting to GOD.
Joe said
Does God turn/convert to the people "taba Allah"? If what you say above is true then explain the occurances where taba is used for Allah alone. Is it turn to God or God turns toward, or maybe if you so choose, God converts?
When GOD uses the TABA, it is used as TABA ala so and so and it means- according to Lisan Alarab- that GOD is helping people turn to Him.
Brother Wakas, for fairness sake, why don't you present one
incident in the Qur'an where T-W-B root was mentioned and the one to turn to was other than GOD. If you did in clear manner then you will prove your case.Salaam all. I have learnt a lot from all of the people here. I will leave you all in peace.
Hussein
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YEAH DON'T GO BROTHER HUSSEIN. AT LEAST POST AT THE OTHER THREADS PLEASE RECONSIDER ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( (
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Salaam Hussein,
When GOD uses the TABA, it is used as TABA ala so and so and it means- according to Lisan Alarab- that GOD is helping people turn to Him.
I do not understand the point of repeating what is already there. The preposition ala/on/to is there and thus we have "taba Allahu AAala alnnabiyyi" - Allah turns to the informer - . Also taba is used in this very ayat 2 times mind you, once with the preposition and once without it.
Joe
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Salaams All,
Hussein, why are you leaving? Maybe you won't even look at the posts now to answer this question. (
Joe, you wrote
The preposition ala/on/to is there and thus we have "taba Allahu AAala alnnabiyyi" - Allah turns to the informer - . Also taba is used in this very ayat 2 times mind you, once with the preposition and once without it.'Taba' is used twice in the Ayah and twice it came with the preposition '3alaa'.
p.s. I haven't followed the thread but just thought now to take a look at the last posts!
Taj
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peace be upon you Hussein,
Sorry to hear you're leaving. And if that was your last post, then I see little point in responding if there will be no response. In any case...
Your view that when people twb, its always to The God is questionable. There is no inherent asociation of the word with God, if there was, why mention God in the context. Also, that means according to you every thief must turn to God (i.e. convert?), in order to be forgiven . I assume therefore, you feel there can there be no disbelieving thieves? There is no compulsion in the system/obligation, no forced conversions etc. You are basically saying the thieves, or those who wage war against the God and his messenger they are threatened with punishments, severe ones in 533-34, but if they convert, then they are forgiven. I personlly have not encountered this notion in the entire reading, in fact I think its contradictory to it .
For sake of argument, lets say every time twb is used, its always to The God (which I agree is the majority usage, simply because when people use it, it means repent, and most of the time its repenting to The God), even if that is the case, my point still stands
According to you, there is a clear conversion (pagans to muslims etc.) in 95, 911. My question is, quite simply, out of the other 90 root occurrences, please give us examples where it is also used to signify a clear conversion like you are suggesting for 95, 911. If you present none, I will assume you feel 11112 is the best (&only?) example out of the 90.
p.s. I haven't followed the thread but just thought now to take a look at the last posts!
Perhaps you can share your thoughts upon the thread once you have looked at it, especially if you feel it applies to you.
God bless.
Wakas
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Taken from Concordance of Quran
Ta-Waw-Ba
taba vb. (I) ~ repent, to be penitent, to do penance; (with prep. ala) to turn towrds someone (in forgiveness); (with prep. ila) to turn towrds someone (in penance). (n. vb.) repentnce, penitance. (pcple. act.) one who repents, penitent.
There is no such preposition in 95, 911. Thus "to" is not implied.
There are examples of specific usage of twb ila/to God , thus al quran could have easily mentioned it in 95, 911, instead of making us assume thats what was meant, if that was what was meant.
Wakas
