65:4 tense child marriage/pedophilia

imrankhawaja

problem of evil is bugging me lately...

faith is not constant. sometimes its strong, sometimes its weak. perhaps when allah is worried you may use your faith to do bad actions, he makes it weak. perhaps when he thinks you need it to be strong, he makes it strong. who knows what he does D D D peace

its happened with everybody its a human nature...

make sure the mission of devil is to put negetive ideas of things in our mind which may lead us towards darkness..
he and his clans see you from where you dnt see them

even in the mind the angels and satanic forces use the same medium for transferring thoughts and when you strong its mean angelic force overcome satanic force..
sometimes we let satanic force win , when things are attach with emotions and ego.. human being is a sensitive creation ..

(example a wife cheats with hes husband, now the satan gives husband a thought of cheat her too, if she sleeps with one man you must have to sleep with three womens and both get trap in the trick of satan.. he use the same laws with negetive mode.. while God orders you positive mode.. ) thats just an example how he play with us we think we take our revenge by doing this but in the end we just wrong ourselves ..

when something bad happen to us , the stanic forces make us beleive that its God who do this to see the pain of human being becoz he let you think that God is responsible for the pain.. he also accuse God by himself in the case of adam that , my LORD you mislead me and i will mislead them...now..

he is our clear enemy we must treat him as enemy.. never let him overtake you.. in the end its you who will be responisble..

i know its a hard test/task/mission what humanity took becoz we dnt have weapons to fight with our enemy , devil the piece of shit is invisible too, and the things in which he leads us gives us pleasure for time being too like adultery, getting rich by unfair means etc etc

but even after knowing all this i have to complete this mission anyway.. same advice to you .. never let your enemy win so easily on you..

may God protect us from the sneaky whispers of evil

amin

Salam Imran,

let me ask you just one question it will change ur perception perhaps..

will you agree of giving ur 6 or 9 years daughter to 50 year old person who already have more than one wives?
the answer of this question will make you think in which point i m coming from...

No, but cant you not see the difference between the age of your grandmother where they married in their 13s and 15s and now in early 20s. Such a difference in mentality could happen within decades, think about 100's and thousands of years back.
Anyway I am not believing the stories of Hadiths, we need to go back to the period of Mohammed to get the right idea and validity of these stories.

i wonder what type of examples you are giving immorality is always consider as immorality regardless of time and technology

I agree, but not every case can be decided with man made laws, there will be exceptions, goodness could be measured relatively, ones goodness could be bad for others and not always good. Arranged marriage is still good for many in India and many in the west see it as bad, can it all be termed as forced marriage? People live happily generations following this adjusting with their partners, thats accepting reality and theres a lot of truth in it.

I have seen marriage between 40year old marrying a girl in her 20's for their second marriage after the first wife dies and each having many kids.

unknownuser

Menstruation is something that happened,

HI Comrox.

Thank you so much for the help, I understand now. How does lam yahidna infer the above?

burhan

Hi Baitachal, sometimes it's necessary to look at the broader picture to solve a problem. So lets look at the entire lifecycle of marriage.

I would start with consent.

Do you agree with the idea that consent is a good thing? If so, can you find the verse in the Quran that clearly states that consent of the women (not the guardian) is required.

419 often gets quoted. But that is a partial prohibition on the practice of inheriting women. i.e. when the father died the son would inherit his wives/concubines except his mother.

Then look at divorce.

Is there a verse in the Quran that clearly states that a women can initiate and complete a divorce.

Peace.

huruf

the word muhsana means "with capacity of consent". The Qur'an orders to marry women by acknowledging them as muhsanaat. 4.24, 4.25 and others.

As to divorce, as stated in 2.228, women have the same prerrogatives and rights as those that might be exiercised with respect to them.

Salaam

burhan

the word muhsana means "with capacity of consent". The Qur'an orders to marry women by acknowledging them as muhsanaat. 4.24, 4.25 and others.

Muhsana doesn't mean "with capacity of consent" in any dictionary or even the Quran itself. It's consistently used to mean chaste (women) or pure/protected (things)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn

4.25 is about seeking permission from the guardian and dowry.
"So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable"

As to divorce, as stated in 2.228, women have the same prerrogatives and rights as those that might be exiercised with respect to them.

This verse has nothing to do with starting or concluding a divorce by a woman. It's the about the right of the man to keep his wife if she is found to be pregnant.

A clear verse would be like "O'Women, you may divorce your husbands if they ... etc"
or "O'Women you may refuse a marriage proposal .... "

peace.

huruf

Muhsana doesn't mean "with capacity of consent" in any dictionary or even the Quran itself. It's consistently used to mean chaste (women) or pure/protected (things)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn

4.25 is about seeking permission from the guardian and dowry.
"So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable"

This verse has nothing to do with starting or concluding a divorce by a woman. It's the about the right of the man to keep his wife if she is found to be pregnant.

A clear verse would be like "O'Women, you may divorce your husbands if they ... etc"
or "O'Women you may refuse a marriage proposal .... "

peace.

YOur translation of muhsana does not fit in all cases and it does not make sense to translate here so and there so, and I did not say or mean capacity of conbsent but a woman with capacity of consent.

In fact most translators trnaslate by several terms and not the same everyhere. like something as disparate as married woman and indeendent woman and then honest woman and then many things.

You seem to have taken for granted all the nonsense all the convenient arrangements of "scholars" and you have not looked at it properly.

5.5.

This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (5)

Is it not rather silly to point out that they can only marry chaste women? Which men look around in order to marry unchaste women? And on the other hand, the Qur'an is clear everywhere, for chaste menand for chaste women chaste men. Nowhere it is forbiden marriage to the unchaste.

You invent or you copy without any critical mind on what you read int he orginal Qur'an.

And it seems that that fits wonderfully in your anti islamic outlook.

That you want the Qur'an to be filth, does not make it so.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

419 often gets quoted. But that is a partial prohibition on the practice of inheriting women. i.e. when the father died the son would inherit his wives/concubines except his mother.

show which word/s is red part you wrote above?

419 O you the ones believes ye of not lawful for you that thou inherit/receive ye of the womenfolk averse of and not thou hinder ye them that may take ye of in part what have given ye them except that approach in immorality clear and live with them in the fair manner so if disliked ye them so perhaps that disliked ye of thing of and maketh the god in it superior much of

422 and not thou marry ye of who married/had sex fathers yours from the womenfolk except what hence passed surely it be immorality and abhorrence of and an evil path of
423 urrimat/unlawful... and cohabitants sons yours the ones from loins yours and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed indeed the god be forgiver of merciful of

Is there a verse in the Quran that clearly states that a women can initiate and complete a divorce.

show which part of word/s means "he" ....?

2230 so if allaqah/divorce (f) so not lawful for him from after until she marry spouse of other than him ...

in context to whom is this address?

665 perhaps lord his if allaqakunna/divorce you (f/p) that changed for him spouses of superior of from you ...

Wakas

I've searched all over the Internet and while they're many claims that make sense saying this refers to women with irregular stops. but no one can disprove that this also means a young girl (because of the jussive meaning that it intends!!). Does this jussive term apply always?

Claim "no one can disprove that this also means a young girl"

Whether it can be disproved or not will depend on your method of understanding Quran. For example, let's say you are trying to interpret one verse and you determine there are 2 theoretically possible meanings.

The Quran is not one verse, it is a whole book of many verses. Thus, one will have to analyse other verses that discuss the same (or similar) subject to see if the possible options can be narrowed down.

Info in my original post in this thread.

reel

Muhsana doesn't mean "with capacity of consent" in any dictionary or even the Quran itself. It's consistently used to mean chaste (women) or pure/protected (things)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn

4.25 is about seeking permission from the guardian and dowry.
"So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable"

This verse has nothing to do with starting or concluding a divorce by a woman. It's the about the right of the man to keep his wife if she is found to be pregnant.

A clear verse would be like "O'Women, you may divorce your husbands if they ... etc"
or "O'Women you may refuse a marriage proposal .... "

peace.

And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive . So do not incline completely and leave another hanging. And if you amend and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.But if they separate , Allah will enrich each from His abundance. And ever is Allah Encompassing and Wise.4129-130

Some things are self explanatory. Otherwise, it is lawful for women to eat pork -\

burhan

And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive . So do not incline completely and leave another hanging. And if you amend and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.But if they separate , Allah will enrich each from His abundance. And ever is Allah Encompassing and Wise.4129-130

The complete passage is 4127-130. Again, the verses simply say two people can stay together (encouraged) or separate (allowed). I am not arguing that.

My question is can a women divorce her husband. Does the concept of "divorced man" even exist in the Quran.

All the verses about divorce are worded as an action done to women by men.

tallaqtumu alnnisaa 2231, 2232, 2236, 651. "you divorce women"

alilmutallaqati 2228, 2241 "divorced-women"

Language is important ... don't you agree.

You will not see the expression "divorced men" anywhere. Just like dowry it is something given to and received by the woman alone. Women can only ask for divorce.

Some things are self explanatory. Otherwise, it is lawful for women to eat pork -\

Yes with enough mental and linguistic gymnastics many have made pork halal.

Wakas

peace all,

Yes with enough mental and linguistic gymnastics many have made pork halal.

I think reel is referring to that prohibition command being addressed in the masculine, but we all take it as applying to both male and female. The masculine address can include both male and female of course.

I'm not sure why the topic moved onto divorce but burhan is right, there is no talaq/divorce done by women to men in Quran. You can read about the divorce procedure as per Quran here
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

If a woman wanted divorce she can ask her husband to divorce her, but if the husband does not divorce her, she can inform the authority herself and request a release from marriage. Whilst different words are used the procedure is actually the same for both men/women, as the husband would also have to notify the authority if he wished to divorce.

huruf

Although the translations of aya 2.228 are usually a real mess, nevertheless it does not offer any doubt that it says that whatever is done to women or exacted from them, they can equally do in their turn it is a categorical and general statement and quite plain

And due to women is the like of what is due from them

Salaam

imrankhawaja

If a woman wanted divorce she can ask her husband to divorce her, but if the husband does not divorce her, she can inform the authority herself and request a release from marriage. Whilst different words are used the procedure is actually the same for both men/women, as the husband would also have to notify the authority if he wished to divorce.

peace,

"javed ahmed ghamidi" said the same thing .. he is modern scholar who although refer history but he say the law must be taken from quran wiithout any help of outside source

he say that a women can ask for divorce , but she cant give divorce according to quran
its the responsibilty of the state to make some laws that help women
let say if a women want to get divorce she will ask from husband , if husband didnt give her divorce in 90 days then the law force a man to give her divorce ..

he was also telling it to the goverment officals to make this law but nobody really bother about it..

i think the decision is in the hand of man due to multiple reasons , because he lead the system of family , he need to think about it and make other party think.. taking this thing in mind he is responisble for feeding the kids too

some modern womens look the husband wife relationship as gf/bf perception thats why things not working properly..

i already explain the the degrees of relations.. its not about women and man its about relations

my mother(women) have three degrees over me
my father have (man) have one degree over me..

same goes with wife she will say
my husband(man) have one degree over me..
my son (man) i have three degrees over him..

look its about relations not about gender..

when quran talk about husband , it talks about the main leader of house .. he must deserve due respect
same like a mother must need due respect from son...

if you accept this system most of the womens accept it then you will have a healthy relation and perfect system..
if you go against this system and wishful thinking will lead you nowhere what we see in western culture when this relation take place as bf/gf or on other words partnership..

you can always compare the seperations .. 70 % cases eneded up in seperation even after kids..

modern women need to understand relations instead of gender jealousy...
even in office if you dnt follow your leader/boss the system of office will messed up

so the system of house , husband deserve to be respected and one degree over wife..

peace
God bless you all

imrankhawaja

sometimes people bring the 4 34 in a negetive way..

i ask from all the mothers of this forum ..
is there is any mother who never "beat" their kids..

i m sure kids in their childhood do mistakes so womens sometimes hit them so that he never do that mistake again..
although i m against violence by myself.. but the truth is there

in my life one time my mom hit me .. just one time i really never feel anything bad about it .. nor i have any issue
my other brothers/sisters get beated from father and mother all their lives..
in that sense i m lucky but if i encounter the same situation there is nothing much i can do becoz its their right to stop me from doing wrong

first they will tel me no to do this thing again
after that they will shout at me
if i still doing this then perhaps the ending way is to hit me (thats logical)

if i still dnt listen them , then they will say me to leave the house we dnt need our system get disturbed by you...

its my interpretation if the word (dharab) is realy reffering to beat or strike

otherwise different people have different interpretation...

this verse is talking about a "cheating wife"

exception is just to cheating wife ... but in the case of kids mother father can beat them of dishonesty, cheating, stealing, causing trouble, breaking things of home, asking dangerous things.

intrestingly when a kid dnt want to go to school , mother hit him becoz she is looking at the future of kid.. at that time kid did not understand this thing..

even the system of God run on same principle , he will roast the wicked in hell like barbque chicken lol
look in the end all things reversed to God...

4 34 is the most logical verse of quran ..

burhan

I'm not sure why the topic moved onto divorce but ...

The original question was on 654 was about divorcing prepubescent girls. My suggestion was to look at the entire lifecycle of marriage.

I think quranists do too many mental and linguistic gymnastics to make the quran fit with modern European ideas of society.

The fact is the quran was revealed to a deeply patriarchal/polygamist society. It's is clearly evident in the language. They would ask for a ruling on their particular issues and the solutions provided were for them only. We should accept that and then dismiss those passages rather than pretending the quran is some feminist manual.

peace.

burhan

its my interpretation if the word (dharab) is realy reffering to beat or strike

I agree with you as does anybody who has studied the language. However I take this approach.

http//www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/maajids-blazing-row-with-muslim-woman/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

this verse is talking about a "cheating wife"

No zina is dealt with else where in the quran. 100 lashes (or stoning if you are into hadith).

huruf

I agree with you as does anybody who has studied the language. However I take this approach.

You may have studied the language but not that much if you come up with such a nonsense as to the word in the Qur'an. We are not dealing with common speak in the street nowadays, but with the Qur'an.

Arrogance does not prove knowledge and posing as to those who disagree with you do not know does not make you any more knowledgeable.

As to the Qur'an, obviously you get kicks of givin it the worst possible interpretation may it fit or not.

Never mind, we are used to this kind of "intelect".

Salaam

Wakas

peace imran, burhan,

Re 434

Perhaps you have not read www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html

Summary of the main findings

idriboo/DaRaBa was shown not to mean "beat" anywhere in The Quran
no Classical Arabic Dictionary references 434 at all nor gives DRB=beat in a comparable example, i.e. with a direct object with no prepositions, no what/where/how
when The Quran uses DRB to mean a physical hit/strike it ALWAYS uses the preposition "bi" (with/by)
The understanding of "beat/strike" causes internal contradictions within The Quran, and this is also probably why no commentator, past or present, uses The Quran itself to justify this view.
"beat" causes discrepancies between Traditional commentators, Traditional Ahadith and Classical Arabic dictionaries
the earliest Classical Arabic dictionary (Kitab Al Ayn) does not state DRB=beat as a meaning, and only indirectly does it have DRB=strike (with sword).

The understanding of DRB in 434 as "cite / indicate / put/show forth them" (to the authority) is the ONLY understanding that provides perfect internal coherence in The Quran. It is the ONLY understanding

that provides a sequential link from 434 to 435
to provide identical solutions between men & women in 434 and 4128
that fits and perfectly explains 581-4
that fits the divorce procedure of The Quran and related compensation
that explains the reasoning behind the context of wealth/inheritance/giving/kindness etc.
is consistent with the use of DRB with a direct object with no prepositions, in which it always means "put/show forth" / "cite"
that 100% matches the use of DRB when used with a person as the object, e.g. 273, 4357.

imrankhawaja

peace wakas..

in my post i was actually talking about divorce giving and a degree of husband over wife.. same like mother have three degrees over his son

annyway lets finish this thing

this particular verse and word (zarabu) we cant skip words from the text of quran on wishful thinking if its not "beat" it must be something which according to situation fits perfect and provide us logical interpretation ...

lets analyse all quran alone translations .. and then i will tell u difference in the end..

Edip-Layth (Quran A Reformist Translation)
434 The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The reformed women are devotees and protectors of privacy what God has protected. As for those women from whom you fear disloyalty, then you shall advise them, abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.

The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation)
434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
434 MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the right?eous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has guar?ded. And as for those women whose ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them ; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great!

Rashad Khalifa (The Final Testament)
434 The men are made responsible for the women, 8 * and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.*,

Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
434 Men are the protectors and supporters of women. They shall take full care of women with what they spend of their wealth. God has made men to excel in some areas and women to excel in some areas. Men should ensure that women are able to stand at their feet in the society. So, righteous women are obedient to God?s ordinances and guard the moral values even in privacy, the values that God has commanded to be guarded. If you experience ill-treatment from them, apprise them of possible consequences. Next, leave them in their resting places, and refer them for arbitration. If they pay heed to you, do not seek a way against them. God is Most High, Most Great.

now as per first two interpretation. authors never touch the word (zarabu) and they did not translate it .. so let these two disqualify from comparing.

rest of the three touch that word and translate it, out of which two of them translate it as "beat"

the last one translate it as arbitration (a methaphorcial approach not grammatical in which he is expert) in one of his version at www.openburhan.com he write in this way And keep admonishing them with examples that they stop rebelling i wonder he tried his best of gymnastic with that word time by time but truth is truth.. whatever we comes up with..

as per my knowledge "muhammad asad" have a full grip of understanding this word(zarab) according to grammar and language rules so i consider his translation one of the best. (see the note of 273)

now if you just replace husband and wife and put father & son/mother & son/elder sister & brother/uncle & nephew , then no body have issue with this beating ..

God bless you all